The Snake from The Garden

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B

BeyondET

Guest
#41
“The best use for a snake is to make belts and boots!” That sentiment closely follows, “The only good snake is a dead snake!” Despite the fear and animosity toward them, snakes have a place and a purpose in the natural world.


Chuck a forest ranger, discusses bullsnake with young visitors at a Colorado state park
A couple camped near us at a Colorado state park once complained to the camphost that a bullsnake had stationed itself under their RV. “If you have snakes under your rig,” the host replied, “you probably have mice.”
When asked what good snakes are, the consumption of rodents usually comes to mind. Farmers protect bullsnakes that linger near their barns, knowing that the snakes’ main focus is seeking out and devouring as many mice as they can. Their voracious appetites help regulate rodent populations.

Snake Food

A world without snakes would encourage a world well endowed with rodents. “Worldwide,” says the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, “rats and mice spread over 35 diseases.” People have less to fear, then, from a bullsnake than from a mouse that can spread disease through bites or through water contaminated with rodent urine or through merely breathing in germs from rodent droppings or urine.

WOW who would of known??
People bitten by a rattlesnake can be treated with antivenom and survive. But of People who contract hantavirus from rodents, 75% will die.

Snakes as Food

The mortal enemies of rattlesnakes are king snakes, since much of what a king snake eats is other snakes. Some snakes eat amphibian and bird eggs, some eat fish, some eat insects and invertebrates. But no matter what they eat, all snakes are carnivorous and eat only other animals, helping keep a balance in nature. Killing a king snake out of fear would, in effect, aid the rattlesnake population by removing one of their predators. Other animals eat snakes, as well. Snakes serve as food for carnivores such as coyotes, badgers, and bobcats, as well as for raptors and other snakes.

Snakes in Medicine

Most people have heard of snake venom being used to create antivenom. But research with snake venom has begun to create drugs for other ailments from type 2 diabetes to cancer to digestive ills. One type of venom prevents blood from clotting, a benefit during surgeries.

“Reptile venoms and toxins have a potential for tremendous contribution to treatment of human diseases,” says Dr. Stephen Mackessy, author of Handbook of Venoms and Toxins of Reptiles, “and some of this potential has been realized in the production of drugs based on or modeled from venom toxins.”

While some argue that snakes are ugly and disgusting, others argue for their beauty. Indeed, as part of nature, we can and should appreciate their unique form and their role in a healthy environment.

Political correctness has promoted tolerance for religion, race, and sexual orientation. Why can’t we include tolerance for other species?
 
I

Incandescence

Guest
#42
Was it literally a snake, or was it something else?

Please, if you can, document your answer from the Word.

Thank You!
There is a larger context to your question, and that is "Is the Garden of Eden a literal description of an earthly event, or an allegorical representation of a spiritual happening that occurred on a different plane of existence?" The desire to squeeze all spiritual happenings that occurred on numerous heavenly planes into the compass of this one earth is unhealthy, and creates a picture of confusion with innumerable contradictions. Just think about it: how could the Garden of Eden be on this earth? The technology of man has fundamentally covered this whole earth, so any burning bush would look mighty conspicuous and would have been discovered. Furthermore, if we insist the Garden of Eden is on earth, and it is supposedly paradise, the simple question arises: where do we die and go to? You can easily see the contradictions that arise if you are honest with yourself.

Thus we must concede that the Garden of Eden was not a physical description of an earthly happening. It was a parable, a pictorial rendering, an allegory meant to more or less capture the sense of a creative process that occurred on different planes of existence with many different beings. It was never meant to mean a literal man and woman in a literal earthly garden!

Earthly language is retroactive. Meaning, we coin words after we experience or discover something. So we do not have words to describe what we have not seen or experienced. You follow? Thus there are infinite things that exist on many heavenly planes that man has not seen, experienced, or know of. Yet these things were part of the creative process in the beginning. So in trying to describe something human beings have not experienced, with words limited to only what humans have seen, messengers from above are forced to give parables that more or less capture the sense of a happening with the limited retroactive words of our language. Think about that for a second. So a word might be used to describe something that does not exist on earth and is not known on earth, but the human being sees the earthly word and just interprets it in accordance with his earthly definition. The fault here is his refusal to question beyond his assumptions.

The Garden of Eden is an example of this happening. It is a description that captures a creative process that occurred on a different plane, but is not meant to be interpreted as happening on this earth as a literal talking snake. For the moment you try and compress it as all happening on this earth, you start seeing contradictions and confusion. A lot of Genesis is filled with allegories that express spiritual and non-earthly happenings, so the difficulty man has in understanding it is because he insists on pressing it all within the compass of this earth.
 
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D

Dagallen

Guest
#43
It had nothing to do with a talking snake, the story has nothing to do with trees.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#44
By oldhermit

A. The Serpent – We do not yet know anything of Satan. All we know about evil at this point is the serpent. What do we learn about him from chapter three?


1. He is a member of the natural world, not a supernatural creature.

2. He is a citizen of the animal domain.
3. He is the craftiest of beasts. The word crafty suggests skills in evil scheming. He is a sly trixter who is able to deceive others. This seems to be his natural character. This does not place him on an intellectual level with man for he appears to be strictly dyadic in his power of reason. Beasts of the field is the standard of comparison that defines his intellect.
4. He possesses the capacity for speech and reason.
5. He seems to have been a willing participant in the deception so, what are the possibilities.

a. Could he simply have been possessed by Satan? Possibly.

b. Was he himself also tempted? This seems more plausible. For temptation to have any power, there must be the illusion of satisfying some desire. If so, what could he have hoped to gain by the fall of man?

* Seizure of preeminence? Of all natural beings, only man is higher than he.

* Did God create the serpent with a diminished view of reality; an epistemology that is rooted solely in the five senses?

B. His Curse


1. Unlike Adam and Eve, the serpent is offered no opportunity to defend his actions.


a. Immediate and direct accountability. The blame rests with him.

b. He is the root cause of the disaster.
c. He is assigned the most lowly position among the beasts of the field.

2. Assigned to the lowest place among the field; from the highest to the lowest.

3. Enmity between he and the woman. Enmity is a deep seated hostility or hatred between two parties that speaks of animosity and even antagonism. This is very strong language. There is nothing pleasant about this word. God drives a wedge between the serpent and the woman.
4. The serpent is assigned to representational status for future events.

a. Her seed/your seed.

b. His heel/your head
This prophesy is as ambiguous as is Satan's presence and participation in the narrative. There is no immediate context to understand this part of the curse. So, how do we know Satan is involved?

* Jesus places him at the scene of the crime and even identifies the murder weapon – LIES, and Satan was the murder. Speaking of the Devil/Satan, Jesus said, “He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.” Luke 8 44. It was through the use of lies that Satan slew Adam and Eve.

* The death of Christ and the defeat of Satan are projected in the bruising of the head and the heel. Though Satan would be given the power to bruise Jesus on the cross, it is in the resurrection of Jesus' from the dead that Satan's head would be crushed. “Since then the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.” Hebrews 2:14.

5. The serpent too will possess a limited lifespan.
 
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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,880
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#46
The trees have a representational status that is paramount to the narrative.
Jesus is the Tree of Life, the True Vine, we are the branches, and the Father is the Gardener :)
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,142
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#47
Jesus is the Tree of Life, the True Vine, we are the branches, and the Father is the Gardener :)
So how do you explain the presence of the tree of knowledge? Why was it even there in the first place?
 
D

Dagallen

Guest
#48
Trees are a symbol's of spiritual things, the serpent is a symbol of spiritual things, knowledge is spiritual, as earthy things are used, that we might understand spiritual things. I
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,880
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#49
So how do you explain the presence of the tree of knowledge? Why was it even there in the first place?
I have heard it said that being the tree of knowledge of good and evil, it represented the law, for it is the law that brings knowledge of transgression, wrath, and death... but I have not solidified that as part of my belief, though it makes sense. On the other hand, it is very easy to see Jesus, Who holds the keys to life in His hands, as the Tree of Life. We live and move and have our being in Him. Anyone not found written in the Lamb's book of life at the end of the age passes out of life into the second death. It all fits from that perspective as well. Jesus and God often use gardening metaphors to describe life and God's plan. :)
 
D

Dagallen

Guest
#50
The serpent is a spiritual beast who God created, as God did not give life nor form to the spiritual beast of evil but mankind disobeyed the commandment of God and gave the spiritual beast life and form, as the spiritual beast then had eye's to see with, had ear's to hear with, had a voice to speak with and speaks with a forked tongue, as the spiritual beast then clearly became a physical beast, as the physical beast shall die, as the physical beast can not escape death.
 
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oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#51
Trees are a symbol's of spiritual things, the serpent is a symbol of spiritual things, knowledge is spiritual, as earthy things are used, that we might understand spiritual things. I
Indeed, the trees represent something that is beyond themselves - life, forbidden knowledge, these are spiritual things. The serpent on the other hand, is not represented in such a way. He represents the reality and presence of evil, anti-knowledge. He is the quintessential modal for dyadic reasoning.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,880
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#52
Indeed, the trees represent something that is beyond themselves - life, forbidden knowledge, these are spiritual things. The serpent on the other hand, is not represented in such a way. He represents the reality and presence of evil, anti-knowledge. He is the quintessential modal for dyadic reasoning.
What is dyadic reasoning? *goes to look it up and waits for OH's answer*
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,142
612
113
69
Alabama
#53
The serpent is a spiritual beast who God created, as God did not give life nor form to the spiritual beast of evil but mankind disobeyed the commandment of God and gave the spiritual beast life and form, as the spiritual beast then had eye's to see with, had ear's to hear with, had a voice to speak with and speaks with a forked tongue, as the spiritual beast then clearly became a physical beast, as the physical beast shall die, as the physical beast can not escape death.
What is there in the text to suggest the serpent was a spiritual being or that he existed prior to the creation narrative?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,880
26,042
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#54
The serpent is a spiritual beast who God created, as God did not give life nor form to the spiritual beast of evil but mankind disobeyed the commandment of God and gave the spiritual beast life and form, as the spiritual beast then had eye's to see with, had ear's to hear with, had a voice to speak with and speaks with a forked tongue, as the spiritual beast then clearly became a physical beast, as the physical beast shall die, as the physical beast can not escape death.
If the serpent did not take form and could neither see nor speak prior to the fall, how could it have deceived Eve? Eve's deception and Adam's sin of disobedience is what caused the fall of all of creation...
 
D

Dagallen

Guest
#55
Great question ! I will give the answer but right now I am at work.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,142
612
113
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Alabama
#56
What is dyadic reasoning? *goes to look it up and waits for OH's answer*
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
Dyadic reasoning is a reflexive nominal movement that has only two points of valence.[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] This reasoning process begins on the temporal side and routinely comes to bear upon something else on the temporal side[/FONT]
[/FONT]. It is[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] a belief structure that attempts to refine and conceptualize the question of cause and effect based upon observable conditions. [/FONT] This stands in contrast to triadic reasoning that involves three supporting components that have a particular kind of relationship to one another. Triadic reality is made up of the eternal, this is the part of reality we cannot see; the temporal, which is the world of objects that lends itself to human empirical observation; and the linkage between the two. The linkage creates continuity between the observable and the non-observable. Everything scripture reveals about both the natural and the non-natural world is based on this triadic structure. With dyadic reasoning, there is no proper linkage between the natural world and God.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#57
By oldhermit

A. The Serpent – We do not yet know anything of Satan. All we know about evil at this point is the serpent. What do we learn about him from chapter three?


1. He is a member of the natural world, not a supernatural creature.

2. He is a citizen of the animal domain.
3. He is the craftiest of beasts. The word crafty suggests skills in evil scheming. He is a sly trixter who is able to deceive others. This seems to be his natural character. This does not place him on an intellectual level with man for he appears to be strictly dyadic in his power of reason. Beasts of the field is the standard of comparison that defines his intellect.
4. He possesses the capacity for speech and reason.
5. He seems to have been a willing participant in the deception so, what are the possibilities.

a. Could he simply have been possessed by Satan? Possibly.

b. Was he himself also tempted? This seems more plausible. For temptation to have any power, there must be the illusion of satisfying some desire. If so, what could he have hoped to gain by the fall of man?

* Seizure of preeminence? Of all natural beings, only man is higher than he.

* Did God create the serpent with a diminished view of reality; an epistemology that is rooted solely in the five senses?

B. His Curse


1. Unlike Adam and Eve, the serpent is offered no opportunity to defend his actions.


a. Immediate and direct accountability. The blame rests with him.

b. He is the root cause of the disaster.
c. He is assigned the most lowly position among the beasts of the field.

2. Assigned to the lowest place among the field; from the highest to the lowest.

3. Enmity between he and the woman. Enmity is a deep seated hostility or hatred between two parties that speaks of animosity and even antagonism. This is very strong language. There is nothing pleasant about this word. God drives a wedge between the serpent and the woman.
4. The serpent is assigned to representational status for future events.

a. Her seed/your seed.

b. His heel/your head
This prophesy is as ambiguous as is Satan's presence and participation in the narrative. There is no immediate context to understand this part of the curse. So, how do we know Satan is involved?

* Jesus places him at the scene of the crime and even identifies the murder weapon – LIES, and Satan was the murder. Speaking of the Devil/Satan, Jesus said, “He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.” Luke 8 44. It was through the use of lies that Satan slew Adam and Eve.

* The death of Christ and the defeat of Satan are projected in the bruising of the head and the heel. Though Satan would be given the power to bruise Jesus on the cross, it is in the resurrection of Jesus' from the dead that Satan's head would be crushed. “Since then the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.” Hebrews 2:14.

5. The serpent too will possess a limited lifespan.
You're back! Yippee!!!
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,880
26,042
113
#58

Dyadic reasoning is a reflexive nominal movement that has only two points of valence. This reasoning process begins on the temporal side and routinely comes to bear upon something else on the temporal side
. It is a belief structure that attempts to refine and conceptualize the question of cause and effect based upon observable conditions. This stands in contrast to triadic reasoning that involves three supporting components that have a particular kind of relationship to one another. Triadic reality is made up of the eternal, this is the part of reality we cannot see; the temporal, which is the world of objects that lends itself to human empirical observation; and the linkage between the two. The linkage creates continuity between the observable and the non-observable. Everything scripture reveals about both the natural and the non-natural world is based on this triadic structure. With dyadic reasoning, there is no proper linkage between the natural world and God.
Oh! But, what if the two communicating are the Holy Spirit of God and the person who is seeking better deeper more accurate all encompassing understanding of Scripture? This may be an aside, but I find I am often trying to give as full an answer as possible with as few words as possible, which conveys a full understanding of the message of the cross and God's everlasting love for us (streamlining the gospel message)... , saying it over and over again (as is what happens on message boards in this type of venue), always slightly different but hopefully touching upon the salient points. I guess in that scenario, though, it is a three pronged communique, comprised firstly of the Holy Spirit of God, and then myself and whomever I am communicating with... ?
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,142
612
113
69
Alabama
#59
Oh! But, what if the two communicating are the Holy Spirit of God and the person who is seeking better deeper more accurate all encompassing understanding of Scripture? This may be an aside, but I find I am often trying to give as full an answer as possible with as few words as possible, which conveys a full understanding of the message of the cross and God's everlasting love for us (streamlining the gospel message)... , saying it over and over again (as is what happens on message boards in this type of venue), always slightly different but hopefully touching upon the salient points. I guess in that scenario, though, it is a three pronged communique, comprised firstly of the Holy Spirit of God, and then myself and whomever I am communicating with... ?
There are all types of triadic structures. The one we are concerned with at this point is that which links the natural world with the unseen world. If you draw a triangle and place God in the left hand corner, the natural world in the right hand corner, and man at the apex if the triangle, this gives you a good illustration of what I mean by a triadic structure. If you will notice, man stands as the linking agent who must learn to link his world to the reality, presence, power, and will of God. In this particular structure, this is the only position man is permitted to occupy. Let us look at yet another example of triadic structure. If you draw the same triangle and place the Father in the lower left corner, Jesus in the lower right hand corner and the Holy Spirit at the apex of the triangle, this gives you a good picture of how the triadic unity of God functions. The Father always represents the unseen reality, Jesus represents man, and the Holy Spirit stands as the linkage between the two.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#60
So how do you explain the presence of the tree of knowledge? Why was it even there in the first place?
W
IMO it was a measure of free will, God is a God of choice, for he said they can eat from any other tree freely but the knowledge tree isn't eatable, thus a measure of human will how would man respond to such a choice listen to God or eat the forbidden fruit...