Where and what is the firmament of Heaven?

Ariel82 · Jan 22, 2017

I was reading Genesis 1 and it talks about how the firmament of Heaven divides water above from water below.

Which of you know the water cycle makes sense.., you have water vapor in the sky that falls back down on the earth as rain.(however now that consider it more water vapor is water IN the heavens not above it)

However it says the sun, moon and stars are placed in the firmament of Heaven.

The birds fly through the firmament of Heaven.

So what does Heaven include? Everything above the land (our atmosphere) to beyond the stars? What is this water that was separated by Heaven?

Was it all poured upon the earth during the flood or is there still more water above the heavens?

Why do we have more salt water than freshwater?
Why is the composition of the ocean water so uniform?

Could the break up of pangea be when God divided the languages during the tower of Babel event?

Some questions I have been told I will have to wait for answers when I see God in Heaven. However, I thought I would ask and see if anyone had any biblical insight.

trofimus · Jan 22, 2017

When they looked up they could not understand how clouds or sun can be "up" and do not fall down like everything else in their experience.

Thats why they thought there is some kind of a firm mass (firmanent) holding it. And when the rain falls down, there must be holes in this firmanent.

If we would want to say the same thing what they said in Genesis, we would just drop out the word "firmanent", because we know, thanks to development in physics, how it works.

So in a modern language: birds fly in the sky, there is water above and the water below.

There is no need to invent complicated fantasy theories (speaking generally, not about you).

mailmandan · Jan 22, 2017

There are three "heavens" found in the Bible.

The first heaven is the firmament. This heaven is the closest to the Earth.

Genesis 1:8 - And God called the firmament heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. The Bible also, refers this heaven as the sky.

The second heaven is the space is where the sun, moon and stars are located.

Deuteronomy 4:19 - And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. The plural form of "heavens" quite often is in reference to the stars beyond this solar system: the myriad of galaxies in the universe.

The third heaven is the location of God's throne: situate to the utter most north from the earth. According to the Apostle Paul he was caught up to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:2 - I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

resurrection33 · Jan 22, 2017

Ariel82 said:

I was reading Genesis 1 and it talks about how the firmament of Heaven divides water above from water below.

Which of you know the water cycle makes sense.., you have water vapor in the sky that falls back down on the earth as rain.(however now that consider it more water vapor is water IN the heavens not above it)

However it says the sun, moon and stars are placed in the firmament of Heaven.

The birds fly through the firmament of Heaven.

So what does Heaven include? Everything above the land (our atmosphere) to beyond the stars? What is this water that was separated by Heaven?

Was it all poured upon the earth during the flood or is there still more water above the heavens?

Why do we have more salt water than freshwater?
Why is the composition of the ocean water so uniform?

Could the break up of pangea be when God divided the languages during the tower of Babel event?

Some questions I have been told I will have to wait for answers when I see God in Heaven. However, I thought I would ask and see if anyone had any biblical insight.

I believe the firmament of heaven is the peace we have after we repent of our sin. It is “new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God” (Rev 21:2 RSV).

Zmouth · Jan 22, 2017

Ariel82 said:

Water is H[SUP]2[/SUP]O, yet it wasn't the water that was seperated from water. It was the waters which were divided from the waters.

However, the firmament began in the midst of the waters upon the surface.

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Genesis 1:6

Thus, the process in which the waters were divided might be confusing without the precepts of Genesis 1:2 which reflect that the entire land mass of this planet was covered under a deluge of frozen waters.

And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Genesis 1:7

The firmament was the cloud that was brought over the earth as a garment. (See: Job 38:9)

And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:8

The garment was made to cover the nakedness of the Earth and the Seas.

And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Genesis 1:9
And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:10

birdie · Jan 22, 2017

Thanks for the question. We learn in the same chapter of Genesis that the firmament is heaven (God called the firmament heaven). We are told elsewhere in the Bible that heaven is God's throne. We are also told that Jesus is on the throne, and that true believers share thrones with him. This is all parable language for saying that Jesus along with those who have God on the throne in their hearts, are rightly dividing the word of God in a way that divides those who are saved (the waters above) from those who are unsaved (the waters below). Think not that Jesus came to bring peace but division. When we hear the term firmament it is not likely to mean the upper statosphere ultimately. It is more likely to point to Jesus and his own as they rightly divide.

pottersclay · Jan 22, 2017

mailmandan said:

There are three "heavens" found in the Bible.

The first heaven is the firmament. This heaven is the closest to the Earth.

Genesis 1:8 - And God called the firmament heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. The Bible also, refers this heaven as the sky.

The second heaven is the space is where the sun, moon and stars are located.

Deuteronomy 4:19 - And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. The plural form of "heavens" quite often is in reference to the stars beyond this solar system: the myriad of galaxies in the universe.

The third heaven is the location of God's throne: situate to the utter most north from the earth. According to the Apostle Paul he was caught up to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:2 - I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

You addressed this with the right zip..mailmandan......see what I did there...

dcontroversal · Jan 22, 2017

The water above is what flooded the earth during the days of Noah...IMV

notbythesword · Jan 22, 2017

Ariel82 said:

I believe the “firmament” to simply be meaning a fixed position or something held solid in place. There can be a firmament in the heavens or on the earth. Scientists still do not know why all the stars and planets are not being pulled back together from gravity. It seems to be defying the very laws of gravity itself. It’s as if another force is directly influencing them. This has led scientists to search for what they’ve dubbed “The God Particle”.

I also believe that the dividing of the waters from above and below, is in reference to the crust of the earth. Some might not think that there are literally oceans worth of water below us, but it has been recently discovered. It’s trapped in the form of Ringwoodite. Remember that in Genesis 7:11 we are told that the fountains of the great deep were broken up…and that they burst open.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDXNWpk82AE

Just my opinion anyways.

Ariel82 · Jan 22, 2017

Zmouth said:

Water is H[SUP]2[/SUP]O, yet it wasn't the water that was seperated from water. It was the waters which were divided from the waters.

However, the firmament began in the midst of the waters upon the surface.

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Genesis 1:6

Thus, the process in which the waters were divided might be confusing without the precepts of Genesis 1:2 which reflect that the entire land mass of this planet was covered under a deluge of frozen waters.

And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Genesis 1:7

The firmament was the cloud that was brought over the earth as a garment. (See: Job 38:9)

And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:8

The garment was made to cover the nakedness of the Earth and the Seas.

And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Genesis 1:9
And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:10

Like the troposphere?

troposphere

Ariel82 · Jan 22, 2017

notbythesword said:

I believe the “firmament” to simply be meaning a fixed position or something held solid in place. There can be a firmament in the heavens or on the earth. Scientists still do not know why all the stars and planets are not being pulled back together from gravity. It seems to be defying the very laws of gravity itself. It’s as if another force is directly influencing them. This has led scientists to search for what they’ve dubbed “The God Particle”.

I also believe that the dividing of the waters from above and below, is in reference to the crust of the earth. Some might not think that there are literally oceans worth of water below us, but it has been recently discovered. It’s trapped in the form of Ringwoodite. Remember that in Genesis 7:11 we are told that the fountains of the great deep were broken up…and that they burst open.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDXNWpk82AE

Just my opinion anyways.

Have never heard of this.will have to look into it more.

Ariel82 · Jan 22, 2017

birdie said:

Wow...sorry I don't see how you connected all those dots.

I got stuck on a lot of points because some of the links don't line up with some scriptures.

What scriptures say ALL believers will share thrones with Him? Revalation 20? Doesn't it say in the next chapter that New Jerusalem decends from heaven to the New earth?

Why are the waters above saved people and the waters below unsaved?

God separated both and called BOTH GOOD...so drawing that conclusion doesn't make sense.

Wow just wow.

"Parable language" not sure if that is code for something.

birdie · Jan 22, 2017

Hi. Thanks Ariel82. If you look at Genesis 1 you will see that the firmament is 'in the midst' of the waters. 'In the midst' is the position of Jesus in relation to the believers throughout the Bible. He is the tree of life in the midst of the other trees in Genesis and he says wherever two or more are gathered in his name he is there in the midst of them, and so forth. This is one of the many indicators that the firmament is a picture of Christ. Further, waters in the Bible are a picture of the word of God (Ephesians 5:26). However, the Bible uses water in terms of people as well, and this probably relates to the fact that they are relational to the word, whether in grace or judgment (Rev 17:15). Anyhow, when God calls the firmament 'heaven' try letting the Bible define heaven rather than thinking of it in physical terms, like the sky would be physical. But the Bible says heaven is God's throne. Notice also that the firmament does something. It divides. That is what the word of God does in the Bible, as Jesus and his people use it correctly. The word of God makes it possible to divide the light from the darkness, not just physically, but spiritually. It is what is used to determine those who are in Christ from those in darkness spiritually...those above (by promise) and those below (by law).

It is possible that you have never been taught in your congregation that the Bible is written by God in parable form. Seminaries and congregations usually teach something like: The Bible is to be read as a surface text interpretation unless it is immediately obvious that a parable or symbolism is involved. However, the Bible itself makes the claim that it is to be read according to the rules of parables (Mark 4:34, Psalm 78:1-2). In a parable, the words of the surface story have a deeper spiritual meaning, in the Bible's case revolving around the theme of God's salvation plan. Most people on this site do not receive that the Bible is written thus, though it is true.

Bladerunner · Jan 22, 2017

Have you considered what God's Word says ......

Then check out what other Bible verses have to say about the firmament plus some other interesting facts.

http://christianchat.com/blogs/bladerunner/10380-flat-earth-bible-part-i.html

Zmouth · Jan 23, 2017

Ariel82 said:

More like the the whole body of gases and other suspended particles of matter that were raised up from the frozen waters that covered the the entire land surface of the Earth under the cloud which the LORD said 'when he looked upon the bow in the cloud' he would remember the covenant 'that the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.'

.

While the troposphere is one of the layers, the firmament would consist of the entire expanse from the earth's surface to the exosphere where the atoms of gases are transfigured into the hoary frost and spew out of the gravity in the firmament of the earth into the expanse of space of called heaven in Genesis 1:1.

.

mailmandan · Jan 23, 2017

The first heaven consisted of the the earth atmosphere where the clouds and birds are. The second heaven is where the sun, stars, and moon is. The third heaven is the dwelling place of God. When Paul said he was caught up to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2), he was referring to the very dwelling place of God.

As a note, the Mormons erringly teach that the three heavens consist of telestial, terrestrial, and celestial. They divide the third heaven into 3 compartments dwelt by people after they die.

The First Heaven: Earth Atmosphere

Deut. 11:17 -- Then the LORD's anger will burn against you, and he will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce..

Deut. 28:12 -- The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands.

Judges 5:4 -- O LORD, when you went out from Seir, when you marched from the land of Edom, the earth shook, the heavens poured, the clouds poured down water.

Acts 14:17 -- "Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons..

The Second Heaven: Outer Space

Psalm 19:4,6 -- In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun... It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other..

Jeremiah 8:2 -- They will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens which they have loved and served..

Isaiah 13:10 -- The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light.
The Third Heaven: God's Dwelling Place

1 Kings 8:30 (phrase repeated numerous times in following verses) -- then hear from heaven, your dwelling place..

The highest heaven, the third heaven is indicated by the reference to the Throne of God being the highest heaven:

1 Kings 8:27 -- "But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you.

Deut. 10:14 -- To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.

Psalm 2:4 -- The One enthroned in heaven laughs; The LORD scoffs at them.

Ariel82 · Jan 23, 2017

Wow, if a new believer came in this site asking questions they would be so confused. Gonna pray that God keeps such seekers in His loving arms.

Ariel82 · Jan 23, 2017

Mark 4 v 33-34
And with many such parables He spoke the word to them as they were able to hear it. But without a parable He did not speak to them. And when they were alone, He explained all things to His disciples.

***it is key to note that Jesus spoke parables to the masses but explained it privately to the disciples. I don't see why you would apply this verse to make the whole Bible a parable.

Ariel82 · Jan 23, 2017

Psalm 78
I will open my mouth in a parable;
I will utter dark sayings of old,
Which we have heard and known,
And our fathers have told us.

*** it goes on to tell of the time of Moses and the Israelites in the desert. I can see how that time is a parable because it is explained in the New testament. manna representing Jesus, wilderness is the world we wander now, the promised land is New Jerusalem (which is currently in Heaven but will descend down), etc

However I still would be wary to jump to such conclusions based on the vague connections of one word being used in a sentence. Using stream of consciousness to connect Bible verses can give you some strange and dangerous doctrines.

Ariel82 · Jan 23, 2017

Bladerunner said:

Sorry I don't believe that the Bible says that the Earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the Earth.

I believe it is the misunderstanding of Bible scholars.

Where and what is the firmament of Heaven?

Ariel82

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

pottersclay

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

Ariel82

Guest

Ariel82

Guest

Ariel82

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Ariel82

Guest

Ariel82

Guest

Ariel82

Guest

Ariel82

Guest