Judas Iscariot

[mailmandan]

In John 6:64, Jesus said - But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. From the beginning of what? I would say from the very beginning, yet some people believe that Jesus was taken by surprise by the betrayal of Judas and did not know he would betray Him until the beginning of His betrayal.

 

[Adstar]

In John 6:64, Jesus said - But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. From the beginning of what? I would say from the very beginning, yet some people believe that Jesus was taken by surprise by the betrayal of Judas and did not know he would betray Him until the beginning of His betrayal.

Yes from the beggining.. From the very foundation of the world..

Revelation 17:KJV
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and

they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the

world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.



Revelation 20:KJV
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Grace777x70]

In John 6:64, Jesus said - But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. From the beginning of what? I would say from the very beginning, yet some people believe that Jesus was taken by surprise by the betrayal of Judas and did not know he would betray Him until the beginning of His betrayal.

Yes it is true that Jesus knew what Judas was gong to do. He knew that Judas would make his decision no matter what and so maybe this is why Jesus said "What you do - do quickly".

He let him have his own will. In letting Judas have his own will - God worked with that to create salvation for all men despite the harm and evil intended and what was produced from Judas betrayal.

 

[mailmandan]

I was in a discussion with a woman about this topic just the other day. Here is her logic - "You cannot logically claim Jesus knew all future events because he knew some. He himself said he did not know the day or hour when he was coming again."

I asked her what other future event (besides the exact day and hour of His second coming) "at least at that point in time" did Jesus say He did not know? Jesus named off several future events that came to pass that He obviously knew about, including Peter denying Him three times before the rooster crows.

She could not name any other future event and instead insisted that because Jesus knew a lot does not follow that He knew all and that He did not claim to know all and at least one time he was surprised, namely, by the betrayal of Judas.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Repeatedly Jesus explained the source of what He did. "The Son can do nothing of Himself; ...the Father shows the Son all things that He Himself is doing" (John 5:19,20). "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge..." (John 5:30). "I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself has given Me...what to say, and what to speak" (John 12:49). "The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works" (John 14:10). As a man Jesus was totally dependent upon God the Father and receptive to the activity that His indwelling Father desired to express through Him.

 

[Grace777x70]

Repeatedly Jesus explained the source of what He did. "The Son can do nothing of Himself; ...the Father shows the Son all things that He Himself is doing" (John 5:19,20). "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge..." (John 5:30). "I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself has given Me...what to say, and what to speak" (John 12:49). "The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works" (John 14:10). As a man Jesus was totally dependent upon God the Father and receptive to the activity that His indwelling Father desired to express through Him.

Amen....and as Jesus depended totally on the Father inside of Him - we too depend on Christ inside of us for all things. Without Him we can do nothing.

 

[Willie-T]

Repeatedly Jesus explained the source of what He did. "The Son can do nothing of Himself; ...the Father shows the Son all things that He Himself is doing" (John 5:19,20). "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge..." (John 5:30). "I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself has given Me...what to say, and what to speak" (John 12:49). "The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works" (John 14:10). As a man Jesus was totally dependent upon God the Father and receptive to the activity that His indwelling Father desired to express through Him.

I think this is the more accurate way to understand Jesus' knowledge of happenings.

 

[SCHISM]

Is praying for the dead forbidden in the new covenant?

Because I would like to pray for Judas, asking Jesus to show him mercy and forgiveness.

Judas was so torn because of his actions that he hanged himself.

Is Judas not represented by the thief on the cross?

 

[mailmandan]

In John 13:18, Jesus said - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' It was also no secret to Jesus that Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him! (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).

Jesus was both God and man. He had two natures. He was divine and human at the same time. As a man, Jesus cooperated with the limitations of being a man. In Luke 2:52, we read - "Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." Therefore, at this point in His ministry He could say He did not know the day nor hour of His return.

It's not a denial of His being God but a confirmation of His being man. Just because this was temporarily veiled to Jesus as a man does not mean that He did not know from the beginning who did not believe and who would betray Him (John 6:64).

 

[resurrection33]

In John 6:64, Jesus said - But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. From the beginning of what? I would say from the very beginning, yet some people believe that Jesus was taken by surprise by the betrayal of Judas and did not know he would betray Him until the beginning of His betrayal.

I think Jesus was all-knowing and never taken by surprise by anything.

 

[jerry2465]

God has all knowledge, and time has no effect

God had a plan from the beginning to use his son to claim a people who would choose him over all else

God knew Judas heart and knew he would be someone who would betray his son by his own choice.

God used Judas as part of the mechanism bring this plan to fulfillment

God saved everyone who is in Christ as a result of this plan

 

[BeyondET]

Judas is a example on how people let the desires of this world over take them, Judas had some issues which lead to him opening his heart to being possessed by satan not once but twice...

 

[SCHISM]

Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

Matthew 27:38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

Is Judas represented by the thief on the cross whom Jesus forgave? I don't know Judas' heart at the time of his death, but I have faith that Jesus could have saved him.

 

[Depleted]

I was in a discussion with a woman about this topic just the other day. Here is her logic - "You cannot logically claim Jesus knew all future events because he knew some. He himself said he did not know the day or hour when he was coming again."

I asked her what other future event (besides the exact day and hour of His second coming) "at least at that point in time" did Jesus say He did not know? Jesus named off several future events that came to pass that He obviously knew about, including Peter denying Him three times before the rooster crows.

She could not name any other future event and instead insisted that because Jesus knew a lot does not follow that He knew all and that He did not claim to know all and at least one time he was surprised, namely, by the betrayal of Judas.

God is omniscient. He holds all knowledge all the time. He is also omnipresent. He also created both time and space, so he is not confined by either. (He has no beginning or end and all is happening at once, except there is no "once" outside of time and space. )

And yet, God became a finite man. I don't think a three-pound brain can hold all knowledge completely. I think Jesus did have to give up his omni-ness to be a man. He could not be everywhere at once, and he couldn't know everything, or everything at once. He kept some of it, but not all of it.

At least, that's my guess on how he knew Judas was the betrayer, but didn't know exactly when this is over. Just a guess, since the Bible doesn't explain it.

 

[stonesoffire]

There's a word that actually shows in a picture how Jesus was God in flesh...

"bosom" of the Father.

~G2859
κόλπος
kolpos
kol'-pos
Apparently a primary word; the bosom; by analogy a bay: - bosom, creek.
Total KJV occurrences: 6

Joh 1:18　 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Picture the ocean as Father...flowed into humanity or the body of the Son of Man like the bay is the ocean flowing into a land which surrounds it.

Son of man/ Son of God.


As far as praying for Judas....Jesus said he was the only one lost. Called him the son of perdition.

Its a nice thought though. Compassionate. 　

 

[jerry2465]

Jesus not only was not surprised by his "betrayal" he even predicted it would happen and that Judas would be the one. Judas definitely didn't surprise Jesus at all.

[h=1]Matthew 26:20-25English Standard Version (ESV)[/h] [SUP]20 [/SUP]When it was evening, he reclined at table with the twelve.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]And as they were eating, he said, “Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” [SUP]22 [/SUP]And they were very sorrowful and began to say to him one after another, “Is it I, Lord?” [SUP]23 [/SUP]He answered, “He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me will betray me. [SUP]24 [/SUP]The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” [SUP]25 [/SUP]Judas, who would betray him, answered, “Is it I, Rabbi?” He said to him, “You have said so.”

 

[tourist]

Is praying for the dead forbidden in the new covenant?

Because I would like to pray for Judas, asking Jesus to show him mercy and forgiveness.

Judas was so torn because of his actions that he hanged himself.

Is Judas not represented by the thief on the cross?

I have prayed many times for those that have gone before us. God has always existed and hears all prayers before He even created the universe. I have prayed for Judas as well. Interesting, in that he was the only apostle that Jesus ever called 'friend' and that was at the moment of betrayal.

 

[jerry2465]

maybe even a more clear passage

[h=1]John 13:21-26English Standard Version (ESV)[/h] [h=3]One of You Will Betray Me[/h][SUP]21 [/SUP]After saying these things, Jesus was troubled in his spirit, and testified, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” [SUP]22 [/SUP]The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he spoke. [SUP]23 [/SUP]One of his disciples, whom Jesus loved, was reclining at table at Jesus' side,[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]24 [/SUP]so Simon Peter motioned to him to ask Jesus[SUP][b][/SUP] of whom he was speaking. [SUP]25 [/SUP]So that disciple, leaning back against Jesus, said to him, “Lord, who is it?” [SUP]26 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped it.” So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.

 

[Magenta]

Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.
*
As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.
So Jesus told him, "What you are about to do, do quickly."

 

[SCHISM]

Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

Matthew 27:38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

Is Judas represented by the thief on the cross whom Jesus forgave? I don't know Judas' heart at the time of his death, but I have faith that Jesus could have saved him.