Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

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Locutus

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Feb 10, 2017
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I want to add some context to revelation that helps define the covenant relationship of its dealings:

Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

This is obviously the heavenly temple.

Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Allusion to Jesus' "O Jerusalem, that killest the prophets"

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:


Hebrews states that no man was able enter in (other than Christ) to the heavenlies while the Herod temple was still standing - but after it was gone then "men could enter in" after the "seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled".

This places the seven plagues in the 1st century AD
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

John is telling the followers of Jesus to "come out of her" - Babylon - ask yourself this, when did the Jews ever partake in the Mystery religion of Babylon/Islam?

They aren't partaking of Islam, they are/were living in those Islamic countries which will receive judgment. Compare to Jer 51:

Yes, the wall of Babylon shall fall. [SUP]45 [/SUP]“My people, go out of the midst of her!
And let everyone deliver himself from the fierce anger of the Lord...
Therefore behold, the days are coming
That I will bring judgment on the carved images of Babylon;
Her whole land shall be ashamed,
And all her slain shall fall in her midst.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Then the heavens and the earth and all that is in them
Shall sing joyously over Babylon...
As Babylon has caused the slain of Israel to fall,
So at Babylon the slain of all the earth shall fall.


 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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How can the book of revelation dealing with a city be turned into non-believing Jews living in Islamic countries and be called "my people"?

The people of God are Christians.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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This Islamic "beast" proposal of yours PL sounds very much like the books "Hidden beast" and "Hidden Beast 2" by Ellis H. Skolfield.

I bought his books years ago when the they came out.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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I want to add some context to revelation that helps define the covenant relationship of its dealings:

Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

This is obviously the heavenly temple.

Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Allusion to Jesus' "O Jerusalem, that killest the prophets"

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:


Hebrews states that no man was able enter in (other than Christ) to the heavenlies while the Herod temple was still standing - but after it was gone then "men could enter in" after the "seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled".

This places the seven plagues in the 1st century AD


The Revelation was written after the dest of Jeru..

--

The plagues cover the same time as the trumpets,

From the writing of the revelation until the end of this planet, approx..

--

I agree that the temple spoken of in Rev 15:8, is the heavenly temple.

--

No man can enter it until after the last judgement, and it is seen in heaven Rev 21:3.

--
 
Nov 19, 2016
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They aren't partaking of Islam, they are/were living in those Islamic countries which will receive judgment. Compare to Jer 51:

Yes, the wall of Babylon shall fall. [SUP]45 [/SUP]“My people, go out of the midst of her!
And let everyone deliver himself from the fierce anger of the Lord...
Therefore behold, the days are coming
That I will bring judgment on the carved images of Babylon;
Her whole land shall be ashamed,
And all her slain shall fall in her midst.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Then the heavens and the earth and all that is in them
Shall sing joyously over Babylon...
As Babylon has caused the slain of Israel to fall,
So at Babylon the slain of all the earth shall fall.
This is not physical Babylon,but Babylon in spirit.

Dan 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.
Dan 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Daniel had a vision of 4 beasts that were different than each other,which are the 4 ways of people,going by their own religion,their own wisdom,being physically cruel,and pushing for physical dominion.

Although all 4 kingdoms went by the 4 ways of man,one of those ways was their chief mode of operation.

Babylon-human religion.They had the revelation of God,which king Nebuchadnezzar proclaimed through his kingdom to acknowledge the God of Israel,and He is the God of gods,and proclaimed this until the day he died.His son when he became king knew what his father proclaimed,but went and took the vessels out of the temple of the LORD,and praised false gods,so God allowed the next kingdom to take over.

Babylon had the revelation of God,which is referred to as riding on eagle's wings,which when they blew it,the eagle's wings were stripped,and Babylon became known as the kingdom of man.You either belong to the kingdom of God,or Babylon,the kingdom of man.

Medo-Persia,physical cruelty.

3.Greece,human wisdom.

4.Roman Empire,pushing for physical dominion,which the Roman Empire does not have their dominion taken away until God puts them down,which the ten horns come from them,which is the world split in to ten sections,with a leader in each section,and the little horn,the beast,comes from the ten horns,which they shall devour the whole earth,tread it down,and break it in pieces.

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The first three beasts had their dominion taken away,which means they will never have physical dominion again,but their ways are still on earth,and show up at the beast kingdom,for it is the 4 ways of man,and the kingdom of man in its entirety,for all 4 of their chief modes of operation are in the beast kingdom,and no longer a different ratio between them like the past,but the kingdom of man in it entirety,Roman Empire,ten horn kingdom,the chief mode of physical dominion,Lion,Babylon,the chief mode of human religion,Bear,Medo-Persia,the chief mode of human cruelty,for they will get rid of all people that does not follow the beast kingdom,Leopard,Greece,chief mode of human wisdom,and there is no input from God in the beast kingdom,for they do not believe in a personal God.

The Roman Empire does not lose their dominion until God puts them down.

Babylon in Revelation is not Babylon in a physical sense,having physical dominion,for Babylon will never have physical dominion again,but Babylon represents the kingdom of man,and the beast kingdom is the kingdom of man,whose dominion is the Roman Empire,although it is all nations that come together,but influenced to come together by the Roman Empire,mainly by a nation that represents the Babylonian spirit,anything goes multiculturism,lived deliciously,did trade with the world,represents all religions of the world,even the occult,mingled themselves with the seed of men.

The beast kingdom is all nations governments together,but the dominion is the Roman Empire,and Israel is back on their own land at that time,and being turned to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah by 2 witnesses God sends them.

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

3 of the 10 horns gets devastated by nuclear weapons as they go forth in rebellion against the unified religious system,which is the religion of Islam,and is such a terrible war that causes one third of the population of the world to die,which is concentrated by plucking up 3 horns by the roots,the Arab nations,that the world turns to the beast for the answer,and follows the beast,whose agenda is there is no personal God to help mankind,but they can solve their own problems by their own technology and devices.

At the beast kingdom,and prior to the beast kingdom,the Jews will not be scattered in to the Islamic nations,but on their land of Israel,and the Roman Empire has the dominion.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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This Islamic "beast" proposal of yours PL sounds very much like the books "Hidden beast" and "Hidden Beast 2" by Ellis H. Skolfield.

I bought his books years ago when the they came out.
I never heard of those books. I developed this theory mostly on my own.

I would like to hear your theory of the beast with 7 heads (one mortally wounded, yet lived) with 10 horns and 10 crowns which supports a false religion, since you don't like my theory. For the life of me I can't tie it to Israel.


 
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PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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JR1,

Good read. Lots of cool thoughts there. There is no question that Babylon represents false religion. It is the religion of Satan which man was deceived into believing.
 
G

GaryA

Guest
..., Jesus says to watch out for false Messiah's and false prophets, that nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, then he simply inserts "but before those things happen, this is going to happen, ." He's just inserting something that he hadn't mention prior to those other events.
Which means He did not state everything in the Olivet Discourse in chronological order -- which is exactly what I said...


It doesn't mean that the events are not in chronological order. All you have to do is put the events of Luke 21:12 as taking place prior to verses 8 thru 10.
It does mean that the order the events are mentioned in the Olivet Discourse is not the chronological order of actual events.

In chronological terms of the events represented, verses 8-9 are before Luke 21:12 and verses 10-11 are after Luke 21:12.


It doesn't mean that none of the other events are not in chronological order. It's kind of like saying "oh by the way, before those things I already mentioned take place, this is going to happen first." That's all it is. Everything else is in order.
Nope. There are other things that are stated in an order that is not the chronological order of events.

The following is from the small chart at the bottom of my Olivet Discourse page:


[TABLE="width: 400, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Chronological Order[/TD]
[TD]Rows[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]1, 2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]8, 10, 11, 12, 16, 17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]5, 6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]9, 13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]7, 14, 19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD][18], 20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Notice that the row order is not listed - 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21.

The order that is listed is indicated almost 100% by the 'grammar of the language'.

:)
 
G

GaryA

Guest
I explained this before but perhaps you didn't see it. IMO, the "tribulation of those days" does not refer back to the "great tribulation" of verse 21 but rather it refers back just one verse to verse 28.
I saw it --- I just don't agree with it. :D ;)

I believe "the tribulation of those days" in verse 29 is referring back to the "great tribulation" of verse 21.

:)
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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I never heard of those books. I developed this theory mostly on my own.

I would like to hear your theory of the beast with 7 heads (one mortally wounded, yet lived) with 10 horns and 10 crowns which supports a false religion, since you don't like my theory. For the life of me I can't tie it to Israel.
i'd have to go with the pretty standard "description" of preterism such as by James Stuart Russell in his Parousia:

"Nor is he long in making his appearance. A portentous monster is beheld coming up out of the sea,---he is designated qhrion [a wild beast], already named by anticipation in chap. xi. 7. The description of this monster is very minute, so that his identification ought to be easy. Let us note the particulars of the description:

1. The beast comes from the sea.

2. He has seven heads, and ten horns, with ten diadems upon his
horns.

3. He bears names of blasphemy upon his heads.

4. He unites the characteristics of all the beasts seen by Daniel (chap.vii.).

5. He is invested by the dragon with his delegated power.

6. One of his heads is mortally wounded; but the deadly would is
healed.

7. He receives the homage of the whole world.

8. Divine honours are paid to him.

9. He blasphemes God, and wars against the saints.

10. The duration of his power is limited to forty-two months.

11. His number is ‘the number of a man,’ and is declared to be ‘six hundred threescore and six.’ (In chap. xvii. other particulars are added, which complete the description of the beast, although it must be confessed they do not tend to make the discovery of his identity easier.)

12. He was, and is not, and shall again come (chap. xvii. 8).

13. He ascends out of the abyss, and goes into perdition (chap. xvii. 8).

14. He is a king: one of seven, and yet the eighth (chap. xvii. 11).


It would be strange if such a number of marked and peculiar characteristics could be applicable to more than one individual, or if such an individual could be so obscure as not to be immediately recognised. He must be sought among the greatest of the earth; he must be the foremost of his day, the observed of all observers; he must fill the highest throne and rule the mightiest empire. His period, too, is fixed: it is in the last days of the Jewish polity, close upon the final catastrophe. The mystery stands revealed even by its own self-solution. This portentous wild beast, this potentate of the world, this plenipotentiary of Satan, can be no other than the master of the world, the Emperor of Rome, ‘the man of sin,’---NERO


Let us now see how the particulars of the description agree with the character of Nero.

1. None will dispute his claim to the title ‘wild beast.’ If ever man deserved that name it was the brutal monster that disgraced humanity by his infamous cruelties and crimes. St. Paul gives him a similar designation: ‘I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion’ (2 Tim. iv. 17).

2. By his rising out of the sea is probably meant that the beast is a and in Judea Nero would of course be a trans-marine sovereign.

3. The seven heads and ten crowned horns of the beast are the symbols of his plenary power and universal dominion.

4. The names of blasphemy inscribed upon his heads signify the assumption of the prerogatives of deity.

5. The union of the characteristics of the four beasts in Daniel’s vision indicates that the dominion of the beast embraces the
kingdoms represented in that vision.

6. The possession of the delegated power of the dragon implies the subserviency of the beast to the interests of Satan. He is the dragon’s legate.

7. One of his heads being wounded to death implies the violent end of the individual symbolised by the beast.

8. As a matter of course, it would be true of the Roman emperor that he received the homage of the whole world, and idolatrous worship would be paid to him.

9. History tells us that Nero was the first of the emperors who persecuted Christians.

10. The duration of that first and bitter persecution accords with the period of forty and two months, or three years and a half, mentioned in the vision. (If we adopt the reading of the Codex Sinaiticus, ‘it was given unto him to do what he will for forty and two months,’ it would evidently imply that his cruel policy of persecution would be limited to that period. Now, as a matter of fact, the persecution by Nero began in November A.D.64, and ended with his death in June A.D.68, that is as nearly as possible three years and a half.)"

I won't copy and paste the whole of Stuart's notes regarding this - the pdf is available:

http://preteristcentral.com/pdf/pdf books/1878_russel_parousia.pdf

It's worth a read as he brings up some excellent points on other topics.

For those that claim the book of revelation was written after 70 AD Kenneth Gentry does an excellent job of refuting that idea in his "BEFORE JERUSALEM FELL - Dating the Book of Revelation An Exegetical and Historical Argument for a Pre-A.D. 70 Composition"

Free pdf and another very good read:

http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs/pdf/before_jerusalem_fell.pdf
 
G

GaryA

Guest
The order that is listed is indicated almost 100% by the 'grammar of the language'.
What this means is --- the wording of the passage itself tells us the order of events.

However, they are not in straight-through verse order.

:)
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
111
63
i'd have to go with the pretty standard "description" of preterism such as by James Stuart Russell in his Parousia:

"Nor is he long in making his appearance. A portentous monster is beheld coming up out of the sea,---he is designated qhrion [a wild beast], already named by anticipation in chap. xi. 7. The description of this monster is very minute, so that his identification ought to be easy. Let us note the particulars of the description:

1. The beast comes from the sea.

2. He has seven heads, and ten horns, with ten diadems upon his
horns.

3. He bears names of blasphemy upon his heads.

4. He unites the characteristics of all the beasts seen by Daniel (chap.vii.).

5. He is invested by the dragon with his delegated power.

6. One of his heads is mortally wounded; but the deadly would is
healed.

7. He receives the homage of the whole world.

8. Divine honours are paid to him.

9. He blasphemes God, and wars against the saints.

10. The duration of his power is limited to forty-two months.

11. His number is ‘the number of a man,’ and is declared to be ‘six hundred threescore and six.’ (In chap. xvii. other particulars are added, which complete the description of the beast, although it must be confessed they do not tend to make the discovery of his identity easier.)

12. He was, and is not, and shall again come (chap. xvii. 8).

13. He ascends out of the abyss, and goes into perdition (chap. xvii. 8).

14. He is a king: one of seven, and yet the eighth (chap. xvii. 11).


It would be strange if such a number of marked and peculiar characteristics could be applicable to more than one individual, or if such an individual could be so obscure as not to be immediately recognised. He must be sought among the greatest of the earth; he must be the foremost of his day, the observed of all observers; he must fill the highest throne and rule the mightiest empire. His period, too, is fixed: it is in the last days of the Jewish polity, close upon the final catastrophe. The mystery stands revealed even by its own self-solution. This portentous wild beast, this potentate of the world, this plenipotentiary of Satan, can be no other than the master of the world, the Emperor of Rome, ‘the man of sin,’---NERO


Let us now see how the particulars of the description agree with the character of Nero.

1. None will dispute his claim to the title ‘wild beast.’ If ever man deserved that name it was the brutal monster that disgraced humanity by his infamous cruelties and crimes. St. Paul gives him a similar designation: ‘I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion’ (2 Tim. iv. 17).

2. By his rising out of the sea is probably meant that the beast is a and in Judea Nero would of course be a trans-marine sovereign.

3. The seven heads and ten crowned horns of the beast are the symbols of his plenary power and universal dominion.

4. The names of blasphemy inscribed upon his heads signify the assumption of the prerogatives of deity.

5. The union of the characteristics of the four beasts in Daniel’s vision indicates that the dominion of the beast embraces the
kingdoms represented in that vision.

6. The possession of the delegated power of the dragon implies the subserviency of the beast to the interests of Satan. He is the dragon’s legate.

7. One of his heads being wounded to death implies the violent end of the individual symbolised by the beast.

8. As a matter of course, it would be true of the Roman emperor that he received the homage of the whole world, and idolatrous worship would be paid to him.

9. History tells us that Nero was the first of the emperors who persecuted Christians.

10. The duration of that first and bitter persecution accords with the period of forty and two months, or three years and a half, mentioned in the vision. (If we adopt the reading of the Codex Sinaiticus, ‘it was given unto him to do what he will for forty and two months,’ it would evidently imply that his cruel policy of persecution would be limited to that period. Now, as a matter of fact, the persecution by Nero began in November A.D.64, and ended with his death in June A.D.68, that is as nearly as possible three years and a half.)"

I won't copy and paste the whole of Stuart's notes regarding this - the pdf is available:

http://preteristcentral.com/pdf/pdf books/1878_russel_parousia.pdf

It's worth a read as he brings up some excellent points on other topics.

For those that claim the book of revelation was written after 70 AD Kenneth Gentry does an excellent job of refuting that idea in his "BEFORE JERUSALEM FELL - Dating the Book of Revelation An Exegetical and Historical Argument for a Pre-A.D. 70 Composition"

Free pdf and another very good read:

http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs/pdf/before_jerusalem_fell.pdf



It is impossible that the Revelation was written before 70 ad.

---

The angel in Dan 12:7 that it will be 3 1/2ts until the power of the holy people is scattered and all these things shall be finished.

You believe that these things were completed by 70 ad., right?

See the little book sealed until the time of the end in v4,

We began the end times after the Day of Pentecost, Heb 1:2.

After things were completed, as the angel stated, 70 ad, the little book could be opened.

--

We see the little scroll from Dan 12 being unsealed as the book of the 7 seals.

The little scroll is opened and what it says is written down and sent to the 7 churches.

It is the story of the 2 witnesses contained in the Revelation.

When the 7 churches read what the little book says, the scroll is open for all to understand.

---

But this could ONLY happen AFTER the 3 1/2ts had been fulfilled, as the angel said .

And the 3 1/2 ts could ONLY be fulfilled after the power of holy people is scattered, 70 ad.

So the little book could ONLY be opened AFTER the dest of Jeru. in 70 ad.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
7,852
1,565
113
It is impossible that the Revelation was written before 70 ad.

---

The angel in Dan 12:7 that it will be 3 1/2ts until the power of the holy people is scattered and all these things shall be finished.

You believe that these things were completed by 70 ad., right?

See the little book sealed until the time of the end in v4,

We began the end times after the Day of Pentecost, Heb 1:2.

After things were completed, as the angel stated, 70 ad, the little book could be opened.

--

We see the little scroll from Dan 12 being unsealed as the book of the 7 seals.

The little scroll is opened and what it says is written down and sent to the 7 churches.

It is the story of the 2 witnesses contained in the Revelation.

When the 7 churches read what the little book says, the scroll is open for all to understand.

---

But this could ONLY happen AFTER the 3 1/2ts had been fulfilled, as the angel said .

And the 3 1/2 ts could ONLY be fulfilled after the power of holy people is scattered, 70 ad.

So the little book could ONLY be opened AFTER the dest of Jeru. in 70 ad.
The new song is sung after Jesus opened the book in Revelation 5:9-12... the reason as to how is given in these scriptures "thou wast slain".(supports your thinking if you consider) .

But if Jesus opened it after he was slain then the things he said before he was slain(Matthew 24,Mark 13,and Luke 21) don’t contain the things that were opened in Rev.5,6 ect. because in Matthew,Mark and Luke he had not yet been "slain" which means that the things Jesus said before he was slain and the things he gave after he was slain could not include the things from after he was slain so the things shown to them after he was slain (resurrected Lord) include the things after he was slain.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
I saw it --- I just don't agree with it. :D ;)

I believe "the tribulation of those days" in verse 29 is referring back to the "great tribulation" of verse 21.

:)
Have you read "War of the Jews" by Josephus? If not, you really should as you would have to go back to the drawing board on much of your beliefs as I was forced to do. Everything, and I mean everything, prior to Mat 24:26 happened in the 66-70 AD time frame. Oh, and everything is in chronological order. However, verse 32-35 give more detail and belong with verses 3-26. If you were to move 32-35 to immediately follow verse 26 you would have it in exact order.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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Locutus,

I read your long post and theory about the Beast of the Sea being Nero. My pastor also thinks it was Nero and he's a preterist too. Nero does fit many of the points you make if he's looked at the way you look at it. But there are some obvious problems with the identification of Nero as the Beast of the Sea.

1. Who then is the Beast of the Earth which arises after Nero and performs signs and wonders in front of Nero and causes the world to worship Nero? This would be a pretty important character and is clearly tied to and aligned with Nero. The Beast of the Earth is identified as the False Prophet in Rev 19:20.

2. In Rev 19, the Beast of the Sea and his false prophet (Beast of the Earth) were CAPTURED, not KILLED. They are thrown ALIVE, not dead, into the Lake of Fire. Even if we can take this figuratively (which would be tough to say) and insist they were both killed and sentenced to Hell, we still have a problem. Just prior to Rev 19:20 we are told that the Beast of the Sea along with the Kings of the Earth and their armies make war against the Lamb. The Lamb wins. In Rev 19:21 those other kings and armies were ALL KILLED by the Lamb and left for birds to eat. The passage reads that the two Beasts and their armies are contemporary to each other. Thus we should expect to see Nero's armies killed about the same time he was. But, we don't. Nero persecuted Christians galore, I agree. But I don't see in history where his armies were destroyed with him.

3. In Rev 19 also we have reference to the birds gathering for that Supper of the Great God. Prior to this you have the Marriage Supper of the Lamb being announced and that His bride is ready. Ready in 68 AD? Rome wasn't wiped out for another 400 years. So, if the Bride was already married in 68 AD, what about the rest of us, how do we get to be part of the Bride?

4. If Nero was the Beast carrying the Harlot (false religion) than that religion was him as the deity and thus died with him. This phrase then would be applicable to Nero and his armies, "He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her." Again, maybe God punished Nero by getting him to order his servant to kill him, because he lacked the courage but it doesn't seem to line up will with the events of Rev 19.

5. In Rev 13 John invokes Daniel's use of Beast which applied to empires and not a man. The beast or empire was given a mouth to speak blasphemies. So Nero would have to be the mouth and not the Beast itself. It is the BEAST and not the mouth that has the 7 heads and 10 horns with 10 crowns. In Rev 17 John states that there were also 7 kings, 5 fallen, one at present and one to come. You acknowledge this here.

14. He is a king: one of seven, and yet the eighth
Nero was the 5th Caesar, not the eighth. He was also the last of his lineage, the last of the Julio-Claudian Dynasty.

6. John goes on to say in Rev 17 that the 10 horns of the beast are ten kings without a kingdom. John states that these ten horns "they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. [SUP]13 [/SUP]These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast." It is clear from this reading that the ten horns are in lockstep with the Beast (NERO). Can you name them? Who were they? Together they make war against the Lamb and are defeated but before they are defeated, they do this, "And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire." So if Nero is the Beast and the Harlot is Man-Deity worship, why would Nero agree to burn up the religion of worshiping himself?

If you can resolve these issues, I may have to rethink my view.
 

PlainWord

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What this means is --- the wording of the passage itself tells us the order of events.

However, they are not in straight-through verse order.

:)
Gary, try reading it like this:

Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple (30 AD)

24 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Jerusalem (66-70 AD)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[SUP][a][/SUP] these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[SUP][b][/SUP] and earthquakes in various places. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All these are the beginning of sorrows.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But he who endures to the end shall be saved. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The Great Tribulation (of Israel) 70 AD

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]See, I have told you beforehand.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.


The Parable of the Fig Tree

[SUP]32 [/SUP]“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. [SUP]33 [/SUP]So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! [SUP]34 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

The Wrath of God Tribulation (FUTURE)

[SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, [SUP]39 [/SUP]and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. [SUP]40 [/SUP]Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]41 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

The Coming of the Son of Man

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

No One Knows the Day or Hour

[SUP]36 [/SUP]“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. [SUP]37 [/SUP]But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. [SUP]42 [/SUP]Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. [SUP]43 [/SUP]But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. [SUP]44 [/SUP]Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

The Faithful Servant and the Evil Servant

[SUP]45 [/SUP]“Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? [SUP]46 [/SUP]Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. [SUP]47 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. [SUP]48 [/SUP]But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ [SUP]49 [/SUP]and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, [SUP]50 [/SUP]the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, [SUP]51 [/SUP]and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 
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PlainWord

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Gary,

Look at the events as laid forth in Luke 17 as they all pertain to the Second Coming. Please note verse 25 is not part of the second coming. Jesus is merely saying that BEFORE He returns, He must first be subjected to suffering (and death):

For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: [SUP]27 [/SUP]They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; [SUP]29 [/SUP]but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Remember Lot’s wife. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. [SUP]34 [/SUP]I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

[SUP]37 [/SUP]And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

See that? The disciples asked where they were to be taken and Christ answered and said, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together." This corresponds with Mat 24:28 as I showed above and is, "the tribulation of those days." This happens long after the Great Tribulation of the Jews. The Luke 17 version doesn't mention anything about the temple being destroyed or the abomination of desolation or the armies surrounding Jerusalem, right? Those things are found in Luke 21.


 

Locutus

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"3. In Rev 19 also we have reference to the birds gathering for that Supper of the Great God. Prior to this you have the Marriage Supper of the Lamb being announced and that His bride is ready. Ready in 68 AD? Rome wasn't wiped out for another 400 years. So, if the Bride was already married in 68 AD, what about the rest of us, how do we get to be part of the Bride?"

You need to list the actual verses you are trying to explain PL.

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Looking at the two above we have the whore judged (66-70 AD) then the "marriage of the Lamb is come".

This is precisely what we find in the harvest of John the Baptist:

(Mat 3:12 KJV) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The armies of Rome burned the whore (the whore includes the apostate leaders of the temple and her people)

(Rev 17:16 KJV) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

I thought we already agreed that the harvest and the wedding were motifs that were part and parcel of the same event.

He's previously warned his hearers:


Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

It seems to me that there is an "audience" related connection between the harvest and the "wrath to come".

John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

John's gospel helps us flesh out the timing and who is being harvested - "fields; for they are white already to harvest".

Mat 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

Mat 9:38 KJV Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

I think we are well within reason to say the "labourers" were his apostles and disciples of the 1st century.

A slightly different view point of the tares and wheat:


Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
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Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

This is an obvious allusion to 1st century Jerusalem.


I'm not even sure who you think the "whore" is - maybe I missed that.

The book of revelation is about the great tribulation which Jesus spoke of which I believe we already agreed was in the 1st century AD.

If the great trib was in the 1st century where are we told of another that would come 100's of years later?
 
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Locutus

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(Gal 4:25 KJV) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Seeing as you don't agree with the "traditional" interpretation of the above I think you need to explain Paul's statement "and answereth to Jerusalem which now is"