Eternal Security You CANNOT lose your salvation! by David J. Stewart | January 2004
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W
Ezekiel 33-12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: (if a man falls back into the unrighteousness of sin he will not be saved) as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth (repentance) from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
The false prophets have removed the working dynamics of a godly repentance that is not regretted
The false prophets have removed the working dynamics of a godly repentance that is not regretted
I am interested.
Are we called to love our neighbour as ourselves and love our enemies?
This seems to be the foundation of Moses law, Christ's law and what Paul
preached. If we can agree that this is our calling through the power of
the cross, how can there be any differences of importance between us?
And if there are no real differences why the antagonism?
Are we called to love our neighbour as ourselves and love our enemies?
This seems to be the foundation of Moses law, Christ's law and what Paul
preached. If we can agree that this is our calling through the power of
the cross, how can there be any differences of importance between us?
And if there are no real differences why the antagonism?
W
were not talking here about moments of anger, mistakes in judgement, smoking an occasional cigarette maybe, but the vile sins of the flesh like pedophilia that many so-called pastors openly claim that they are still saved and God will work it out later..Did the prodigal son return to the pig pen of riotous living?
gb9 - My comment as I repeated was not aimed at g7.
Is this all you have, a sense of indignation about something that did not happen?
So you cannot answer a simple question about love?
Do you know who Jesus really is?
What is annoying you about what I am saying? You are turning something general
into something personal? This is not behaviour that is compatible to forum discussions.
Is this all you have, a sense of indignation about something that did not happen?
So you cannot answer a simple question about love?
Do you know who Jesus really is?
What is annoying you about what I am saying? You are turning something general
into something personal? This is not behaviour that is compatible to forum discussions.
Is this a well argued respectful way of handling people who love Christ,
yet feel infinite security in Christ is a denial of love and free will?
I would suggest this is the true intent of this group, to destroy and remove
such opposition from the fellowship of believers.
The declaration is this is the worst sin to the body
of Christ than any other false doctrine
There have been many false doctrines in the church, and G7 represents such
anger and hatred against believers it testifies to its source and delusion.
It is laughable that people take such anger and hatred seriously, but it is
obvious they do, because it is wrapped up in such a nice package, though
obviously extremely destructive and abusive as this post demonstrates.
yet feel infinite security in Christ is a denial of love and free will?
I would suggest this is the true intent of this group, to destroy and remove
such opposition from the fellowship of believers.
The declaration is this is the worst sin to the body
of Christ than any other false doctrine
There have been many false doctrines in the church, and G7 represents such
anger and hatred against believers it testifies to its source and delusion.
It is laughable that people take such anger and hatred seriously, but it is
obvious they do, because it is wrapped up in such a nice package, though
obviously extremely destructive and abusive as this post demonstrates.
W
Originally Posted by FranC
I agree that we can't judge anothers soul.
But it seems to me that it's the OSAS crowd that wants to judge.
They say that if one FALLS AWAY, then it means that person
was never saved to begin with. HOW could they say that?
How could they know if the person was saved or not?
That’s the great Calvinist cop-out FranC. Whereas they use king Saul and Judas for their prototype examples…However the scriptures declare the opposite…God gave Saul a new heart, and said the kingship would have stayed in his house forever, in that case forever meaning until the coming of the Messiah…As for Judas he was hand picked by Jesus as an apostle, he was given the power to cure the sick, cast out devils, deliver the gospel, Jesus does not annoint this kind of power to unsaved disciples..And of course the text said towards the end that Satan entered in him. Jesus was troubled in the spirit that one of his best friends was going to betray Him..He even offered Him bread a Jewish custom among friends that He might turn back, but to do whatever He was going to do quickly. There is also much more scriptural proof that Judas was saved.
But it seems to me that it's the OSAS crowd that wants to judge.
They say that if one FALLS AWAY, then it means that person
was never saved to begin with. HOW could they say that?
How could they know if the person was saved or not?
That’s the great Calvinist cop-out FranC. Whereas they use king Saul and Judas for their prototype examples…However the scriptures declare the opposite…God gave Saul a new heart, and said the kingship would have stayed in his house forever, in that case forever meaning until the coming of the Messiah…As for Judas he was hand picked by Jesus as an apostle, he was given the power to cure the sick, cast out devils, deliver the gospel, Jesus does not annoint this kind of power to unsaved disciples..And of course the text said towards the end that Satan entered in him. Jesus was troubled in the spirit that one of his best friends was going to betray Him..He even offered Him bread a Jewish custom among friends that He might turn back, but to do whatever He was going to do quickly. There is also much more scriptural proof that Judas was saved.
It is sad that most eternal security believers go that way. They are the ones that should know we have a race to run and it depends on the way we run the race to determine rewards. But Salvation is SIMPLE, and it is faith alone in Christ alone.
But they jump on verses to say ," Well they were not REALLY saved." It hinders the FACT of eternal security and gives your false belief legs. They were really saved, but they didn't run race. They will be servants in the eternal state, when they could have been rulers and lords.
But they jump on verses to say ," Well they were not REALLY saved." It hinders the FACT of eternal security and gives your false belief legs. They were really saved, but they didn't run race. They will be servants in the eternal state, when they could have been rulers and lords.
it is one thing to did-agree with someone, it is another to mis-represent what was said, which is what has happened here.
but, blue ladybug is right, as she normally is. this has gotten childish.
out of respect of her opinion, and not to stress grace777 X 7 ( sorry brother, should have let this go, forgive me ). I am bowing out of this.
but, blue ladybug is right, as she normally is. this has gotten childish.
out of respect of her opinion, and not to stress grace777 X 7 ( sorry brother, should have let this go, forgive me ). I am bowing out of this.
I was reading through the comments of AT Robertson on 1 Corinthians 9:27. He notes: Paul asks the question. What is the prize before Paul? Is it that reward of which he spoke in verse 1 Corinthians 9:18, his glorying of preaching a free gospel? He comments that most writers take Paul to refer to the possibility of his rejection in his personal salvation at the end of the race.
The problem that I see with this latter interpretation is I see a difference between a prize and a gift. A prize is something that you work for and earn where a gift is something that you freely accept without merit. Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. That doesn't sound like a free gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8). 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 mentions - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved. *Notice that the NIV says - "disqualified for the prize."
Paul does not seem to indicate any insecurity about his position - "Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:8). Also, in 1 Corinthians 9:24, Paul mentions - Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. That doesn't sound like the gift of eternal life either. That sounds like an Olympic race where all run, but only one receives the gold medal.
Would this mean that everyone else is disqualified from the race? Silver medal, bronze medal, no medal but finished the race, all disqualified from the race? Comparing that analogy with this passage of Scripture, that sounds like out of all of us believers who are in the race, only one of us is going to heaven.
The problem that I see with this latter interpretation is I see a difference between a prize and a gift. A prize is something that you work for and earn where a gift is something that you freely accept without merit. Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. That doesn't sound like a free gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8). 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 mentions - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved. *Notice that the NIV says - "disqualified for the prize."
Paul does not seem to indicate any insecurity about his position - "Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:8). Also, in 1 Corinthians 9:24, Paul mentions - Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. That doesn't sound like the gift of eternal life either. That sounds like an Olympic race where all run, but only one receives the gold medal.
Would this mean that everyone else is disqualified from the race? Silver medal, bronze medal, no medal but finished the race, all disqualified from the race? Comparing that analogy with this passage of Scripture, that sounds like out of all of us believers who are in the race, only one of us is going to heaven.
Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
CASTAWAY, as per context may also refer to the LOSS of Testimony not salvation. Paul consider himself to be servant unto all men, being made free from the bondage of sin, he is committed and responsible in bringing his testimony as minister of the gospel. Here, Paul is speaking that He won’t let his good testimony be tarnished and find ‘disapproval’ in the sight of men and that having a ‘reprobate’ mind hinders the preaching of the gospel. Here Paul is stressing the importance of good works as testimony of change life by the Gospel. Speaking of ‘reprobate’ are those who does things which are inconvenient.(Romans 1:28)
Similarly, our Lord Jesus in Matthew 5 talks about that we are the light of the world, the light should shine upon all men and is no way to put in a bushel.
Matthew 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Mathew 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
God bless
Umm, so I see, you are saying you believe in the eternal security because you are the one holding on and It is because it’s ”your choice”. So that It will be your decision that makes it.
Our believing in Him, is of course is not a decision based on what we like it or not but because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the Gospel which is the power of God unto Salvation unto them that beleiveth (Romans 1:16).
In salvation, you have the freedom to respond, either to accept it or reject it. It’s not the question of maintaining or doing it. God already made it for us. A false balance is that our free will has been taken away since salvation has no need to respond to the Gospel call or message. This extreme view is not supported in the Bible. OTOH, ‘maintaining’ leans no Biblical support either. We cannot maintain which was already made. Yes, because it is already “FINISHED”, for Christ once sacrificed himself for the just and the unjust. (Hebrews 9:28; Hebrews 10:10)
Look, you said you are more secure than they who believed in “Once Saved Always Saved” but I see it differently to those who believed in “Once Saved Almost Saved” folks.
Not only Jesus, the sure foundation is holding believers but so with God the Father and the Holy Spirit who sealed us in the day of redemption! That redemption of Christ is made possible to ALL men but will only be given to ”WHOSOEVER” beleiveth in Him.
Our believing in Him, is of course is not a decision based on what we like it or not but because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the Gospel which is the power of God unto Salvation unto them that beleiveth (Romans 1:16).
In salvation, you have the freedom to respond, either to accept it or reject it. It’s not the question of maintaining or doing it. God already made it for us. A false balance is that our free will has been taken away since salvation has no need to respond to the Gospel call or message. This extreme view is not supported in the Bible. OTOH, ‘maintaining’ leans no Biblical support either. We cannot maintain which was already made. Yes, because it is already “FINISHED”, for Christ once sacrificed himself for the just and the unjust. (Hebrews 9:28; Hebrews 10:10)
Look, you said you are more secure than they who believed in “Once Saved Always Saved” but I see it differently to those who believed in “Once Saved Almost Saved” folks.
Not only Jesus, the sure foundation is holding believers but so with God the Father and the Holy Spirit who sealed us in the day of redemption! That redemption of Christ is made possible to ALL men but will only be given to ”WHOSOEVER” beleiveth in Him.
Let me put things into context. Someone makes a statement.
Another comments on that statement and puts it into context.
Everyone can read both points, there is no lying or distorting, or miss-representing.
To miss-represent you do not quote the actual statement and source it.
What you are really saying is you cannot stand the light being shone onto a position
which is laughable.
The biggest challenge to the church was to get the word of God into the hands of
believers so they in the Holy Spirit could walk with Christ.
Jesus said you cannot stop the Kingdom of God. It will just grow.
What we need to be concerned about is walking in the ways of Jesus.
The biggest challenge to the church is wealth and success, because it panders to the
body and the lusts of the heart.
Another comments on that statement and puts it into context.
Everyone can read both points, there is no lying or distorting, or miss-representing.
To miss-represent you do not quote the actual statement and source it.
What you are really saying is you cannot stand the light being shone onto a position
which is laughable.
The biggest challenge to the church was to get the word of God into the hands of
believers so they in the Holy Spirit could walk with Christ.
Jesus said you cannot stop the Kingdom of God. It will just grow.
What we need to be concerned about is walking in the ways of Jesus.
The biggest challenge to the church is wealth and success, because it panders to the
body and the lusts of the heart.
The above is a typical polarisation.
Let us put this in a falling off a cliff analogy. We are hanging on, slowly slipping off the edge.
A hand comes out and tells us to grab hold and hang on, to do carefully what we are told
to do.
Now control and understanding is held completely in the rescuers hands, while we are just
being obedient to what we are instructed to do. It is a partnership.
Christ does that to us. We are called friends, cleansed, washed, chosen, justified, purified,
healed and made whole.
Who we are and how the Lord transforms us is important.
The heresy that is being shared is that we are ok as sinners, we are forgiven and there are
no real issues to tackle, rather we should enjoy the riches as blessings that surround us.
But this is a poisoned chalice, where our lusts of the flesh are pandered to and spiritual
realities ignored.
Let us put this in a falling off a cliff analogy. We are hanging on, slowly slipping off the edge.
A hand comes out and tells us to grab hold and hang on, to do carefully what we are told
to do.
Now control and understanding is held completely in the rescuers hands, while we are just
being obedient to what we are instructed to do. It is a partnership.
Christ does that to us. We are called friends, cleansed, washed, chosen, justified, purified,
healed and made whole.
Who we are and how the Lord transforms us is important.
The heresy that is being shared is that we are ok as sinners, we are forgiven and there are
no real issues to tackle, rather we should enjoy the riches as blessings that surround us.
But this is a poisoned chalice, where our lusts of the flesh are pandered to and spiritual
realities ignored.
A challenge to love.
We are saved and walking with Christ, Amen.
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:20
What is righteousness by Pauls definition?
Whoever loves others has fulfilled the law
Rom 13:8
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
Gal 5:14
It is love in our hearts that is the Kingdom of Heaven. This love is Christs love planted in
us, through the word and healing of our hurts and disappointments.
Now every christian no matter their background should be able to walk in this love.
So if you can love me as I am, forgive me of my weaknesses and help minister to my needs
then you are begun to walk in love.
But if you feel I am an enemy, taught by demons, then your heart is far from Christ.
Now I can say this not because of me, but because of Christ and the apostles and their
teaching. If you desire to follow Christ you are committed to learn about love and your own
heart.
This is no picnic, and it is the very thing our hearts will fight with everything to avoid, because
it hurts, it upsets, it desires change and repentance, getting right with people, being humble,
saying things we do not like doing. But it is the way of the cross.
The enemy are rich, self indulgent, greedy, lovers of themselves, hard hearted, without love,
without mercy, without forgiveness. And they hate correction or having to become something
different, because they are very happy were they are in the world and would never give it up.
We are saved and walking with Christ, Amen.
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:20
What is righteousness by Pauls definition?
Whoever loves others has fulfilled the law
Rom 13:8
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
Gal 5:14
It is love in our hearts that is the Kingdom of Heaven. This love is Christs love planted in
us, through the word and healing of our hurts and disappointments.
Now every christian no matter their background should be able to walk in this love.
So if you can love me as I am, forgive me of my weaknesses and help minister to my needs
then you are begun to walk in love.
But if you feel I am an enemy, taught by demons, then your heart is far from Christ.
Now I can say this not because of me, but because of Christ and the apostles and their
teaching. If you desire to follow Christ you are committed to learn about love and your own
heart.
This is no picnic, and it is the very thing our hearts will fight with everything to avoid, because
it hurts, it upsets, it desires change and repentance, getting right with people, being humble,
saying things we do not like doing. But it is the way of the cross.
The enemy are rich, self indulgent, greedy, lovers of themselves, hard hearted, without love,
without mercy, without forgiveness. And they hate correction or having to become something
different, because they are very happy were they are in the world and would never give it up.
OK Bill,
Let's go through this because I think there is really a lot of misunderstanding on both sides.
I get told that I'm a works salvationist. I don't even know what that is... Here we go --
I DO shift the burden from Christ to the Christian when it comes to being lost.
John 3:16 For whosoever believes...
God makes the first move. Man has Always known God.
Romans 1:19-20
So, it is OUR CHOICE to open the door when Jesus knocks, Rev 3:20, and let Him in and He will sup with us. Eating together socially is a way of being intimate in friendship. It's a sign of wanting to be together because the company of the other is enjoyed.
Jesus NEVER fails, so if eternal security is NOT biblical, how do we understand
John 6:39-40?
John 6:39-40 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
verse 39: It is the WILL OF GOD FATHER that of all that Father has given Son, nothing is lost. But that it (the person) be raised up on the last day, the resurrection.
Because something is the will of the Father, does not mean that man will adhere to it. If someone is a 5 point Calvinist, then this is what he believes, but if one only believes in OSAS then the reply is simple.
There's another verse in the bible that demonstrates my point...
2 Peter 3:9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
God wishes for one to perish. He wills that none should perish, that does NOT mean that ALL MEN will be saved.
Why? Because it's up to each of us to CHOOSE to be saved and REMAIN saved.
So God Father, wills that of all He has given the Son nothing is lost, but God will not FORCE the person to be saved or to remain saved.
Verse 40: Everyone who beholds the Son, and BELIEVES (present tense) in Him, may have eternal life and Jesus WILL raise that person up on the last day.
God does not force us to believe or remain a believer
SO,
It's never Jesus failing, but US who fail.
John 3:16 WHOSOEVER BELIEVES...
The conditions that cause one to be saved, must be the same conditions to let him remain saved - otherwise it means we've lost our free will after salvation.
Let's go through this because I think there is really a lot of misunderstanding on both sides.
I get told that I'm a works salvationist. I don't even know what that is... Here we go --
I DO shift the burden from Christ to the Christian when it comes to being lost.
John 3:16 For whosoever believes...
God makes the first move. Man has Always known God.
Romans 1:19-20
So, it is OUR CHOICE to open the door when Jesus knocks, Rev 3:20, and let Him in and He will sup with us. Eating together socially is a way of being intimate in friendship. It's a sign of wanting to be together because the company of the other is enjoyed.
Jesus NEVER fails, so if eternal security is NOT biblical, how do we understand
John 6:39-40?
John 6:39-40 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
verse 39: It is the WILL OF GOD FATHER that of all that Father has given Son, nothing is lost. But that it (the person) be raised up on the last day, the resurrection.
Because something is the will of the Father, does not mean that man will adhere to it. If someone is a 5 point Calvinist, then this is what he believes, but if one only believes in OSAS then the reply is simple.
There's another verse in the bible that demonstrates my point...
2 Peter 3:9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
God wishes for one to perish. He wills that none should perish, that does NOT mean that ALL MEN will be saved.
Why? Because it's up to each of us to CHOOSE to be saved and REMAIN saved.
So God Father, wills that of all He has given the Son nothing is lost, but God will not FORCE the person to be saved or to remain saved.
Verse 40: Everyone who beholds the Son, and BELIEVES (present tense) in Him, may have eternal life and Jesus WILL raise that person up on the last day.
God does not force us to believe or remain a believer
SO,
It's never Jesus failing, but US who fail.
John 3:16 WHOSOEVER BELIEVES...
The conditions that cause one to be saved, must be the same conditions to let him remain saved - otherwise it means we've lost our free will after salvation.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 ¶ Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Verse 17 in context is very clear. If God will not remember our sin anymore how can we lose our salvation? We have the new and better covenant, the everlasting covenant.
Our relationship with God is one of covenant.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 ¶ Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Verse 17 in context is very clear. If God will not remember our sin anymore how can we lose our salvation? We have the new and better covenant, the everlasting covenant.
Our relationship with God is one of covenant.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I'm saying that if someone tells me they are saved - I believe them. It's not up to me to know if they are or not.
If they tell me they are not saved, I believe that too, since it's not up to me.
If a OSAS person hears that someone has left the faith, they say: Oh, he was NEVER SAVED to begin with.
See?
How could they make such a comment? They can't know if someone was ever saved, or is saved, or will be saved!
But they have to say the person was NEVER SAVED or they would have to admit that salvation CAN be lost.
If they tell me they are not saved, I believe that too, since it's not up to me.
If a OSAS person hears that someone has left the faith, they say: Oh, he was NEVER SAVED to begin with.
See?
How could they make such a comment? They can't know if someone was ever saved, or is saved, or will be saved!
But they have to say the person was NEVER SAVED or they would have to admit that salvation CAN be lost.
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