Do you really want to be "Born Again?" Is this technically correct?

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RomansToPhilemon

Guest
#1
This is not about one wanting to be saved. I am simply talking about the fact how people use this phrase "I'm a born again believer!" But is that really a true statement? Now I understand when a saint says this, they simply mean they are a saved believer. I'm not refuting this. I am wanting to examine the text with a little magnifying glass that will surprisingly show that the phrase "ye must be born again" is technically a phrase only referring to the nation of Israel that MUST be born again. Here is the deep study by a pastor. I'll also leave a video from Ron Knight who goes over this issue as well.

“Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again”–John 3:7

By Richard Jordan

Undoubtedly Nicodemus was startled. The emphatic and penetrating statements of Christ had raised issues that had not previously engaged his attention. Yet, really, he ought not to have been so shaken and bewildered. Thus Christ’s gently rebuking, “Marvel not.”

We say this was a gentle rebuke for after further explaining the process of this new birth (v. 8), He responds to the dullness of Nicodemus (v.9) in much sharper terms:

“Jesus answered and said unto him, ART THOU A MASTER OF ISRAEL, AND KNOWEST NOT THESE THINGS?
“Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and YE RECEIVE NOT OUR WITNESS” (John 3:10-12).

Before we think too poorly of Nicodemus, however, we should reflect upon the fact that this very subject is still one that eludes the grasp of most today. Although the term “born again” has come into popular usage, who can deny that its Scriptural meaning and significance has been almost totally lost and unnoticed.

The basic issue involved in the new birth is not reformation, nor is it religion; the basic issue is the doctrine of regeneration. This is clear from Christ’s words to Nicodemus in John 3:5,6,

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

Notice how careful the Lord is to define the character of the new birth: It is not the reformation of the outward man, nor the education of the natural man, nor the purification of the old man for “that which is born of the flesh is flesh.” Rather it is the Spirit of God giving birth to a new life–a divine life and nature. It is partaking of the Divine nature (II Pet. 1:4). Simply put, it is being born of God–“that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

A COMMON DOCTRINE

Regeneration–i.e., being “born of the Spirit”–is a doctrine associated in Scripture with God’s dealings both with the nation Israel and the Body of Christ. In fact, the word itself is found only twice in the Bible, once in relation to Israel’s program and once in reference to the Body of Christ.

The first occurrence is found in Matthew 19:28, where Christ is speaking to His Apostles:

“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, IN THE REGENERATION when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Notice carefully the wording here: “In the regeneration WHEN the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory.” This is a future regeneration associated with the time when Christ sits on “the throne of His glory.” Regeneration, then, for Israel is clearly a part of her kingdom program and hope.

The second occurrence is from the pen of the Apostle Paul:

“But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared.
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by THE WASHING OF REGENERATION, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Tit. 3:4,5).

Obviously the doctrine of regeneration is a spiritual truth which plays an integral part in God’s purpose for both Israel’s future kingdom program and the current administration of grace. Thus we must be careful to distinguish the dual applications of this doctrine.

A CONTRASTING APPLICATION

Too often the true significance of John 3:7 is overlooked due to a failure to appreciate its usage of the second person pronouns “thee” and “ye.” Notice the verse carefully:

“Marvel not that I said unto THEE, YE must be born again.”

To the modern reader this may seem unimportant since most of us do not so readily understand the significance of the “thee, thou, ye, you” contrasts in our Bible. A bit of investigation, however, on this point will yield great rewards.

“Thee, thou” and “ye, you” are respectively the singular and plural forms of the second person pronoun. While our modern English uses the pronoun “you” for both singular and plural, the older English was able to distinguish between in singular (thee, thou) and plural (ye, you). Thus “thee, thou” refers to an individual while “ye, you” refers to a group. This same distinction is made in many modern languages and, more importantly, is used by the Greek language of the New Testament.

(This explains why God is never addressed in the Bible by the word “you.” There is one God and He is always to be addressed in the singular. Thus the use of the grave style in addressing God in prayer is not simply a matter of reverence or respect–it is also a simple matter of grammar!)

Thus our Lord was, in fact, saying to Nicodemus,

“Marvel not that I say unto THEE [i.e., Nicodemus], YE[i.e., the nation Israel] must be born again.”

(As an aside, it is interesting to observe that one of the very things often used to complain against the King James Bible is in reality a tremendously helpful study aid! Try it in other passages, such as Matt. 16:18,19; 18:18, Luke 22:31-34, etc.)

In light of this, we should look carefully at Israel’s history: As a nation, Israel was born the first time when God led them out of Egypt. Two passages that make this very clear are Ex. 4:22 and Deut. 32:18. In the former, God declares Israel to be His “first born” and thus Moses later rebuked them:

“OF THE ROCK THAT BEGAT THEE thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.”

The Exodus from Egypt marks the birth of the nation Israel and stands as the great declaration of God’s purpose for that specially favored people. Paul alludes to this in 1 Cor. 10:1,2:

“Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, now that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
“And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.”

They were “baptized unto Moses” and born as a nation. It is almost humorous–tragically so–to hear Moses “arguing” with the Lord over His rebellious people, saying,

“…Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant? and wherefore have I not found favor in thy sight, that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me?
“HAVE I CONCEIVED ALL THIS PEOPLE? HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEM…” (Num 11:11, 12).

The point to notice here is that Moses clearly acknowledged that it was God who had conceived and given birth to this nation. They were His! And we are not left to wonder about His purpose for them:

“And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
“Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself.
“Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
“And YE SHALL BE UNTO ME A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, AND AN HOLY NATION. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel” (Ex. 19:3-6).

God gave birth to a nation which was to be a holy nation, “a kingdom of priests.” They were to be the agency and channel through whom His salvation and blessing was to be carried to “all the nations of the earth.” This was what He had promised Abraham, when He had said:

“And I WILL MAKE OF THEE A GREAT NATION, and I will bless thee and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
“And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and IN THEE SHALL ALL FAMILIES OF THE EARTH BE BLESSED” (Gen 12:2,3).

This was the hope set before them through the prophets He sent to them. For example, Isaiah declares,

“But YE SHALL BE NAMED THE PRIEST OF THE LORD: MEN SHALL CALL YOU THE MINISTERS OF OUR GOD: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves” (Isa. 61:6).

We do not have to read the sacred page for long, however, to learn the obvious fact that Israel failed–failed miserably–to keep the covenant made with them through Moses. Because they did not keep the Law, they were under the curse of God. Thus it became necessary for God to bring the nation to birth again–through new covenant and a new deliverer, a “greater than Moses.”

Jer. 31:31-34 teaches that God was to make a “new covenant” with Israel, one which would provide regeneration and forgiveness of sin for the nation. When this new covenant is realized, it will issue in spiritual regeneration and a resultant physical restoration for the national people of Israel. As it were, the nation will be born in a day (Isa. 66:8).

It was to this prophesied rebirth of the nation that our Lord pointed Nicodemus in John 3 and which he was so painfully unable to comprehend. Notice once again how the Lord used the “thou–ye” contrast as He responded to Nicodemus’ dullness:

“…Art THOU a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
“Verily, verily I say unto THEE, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and YE receive not our witness” (vs. 10,11).

Sadly, even the very teachers and leaders of God’s favored people could not see the nation’s true condition and need! Israel had lived under the Mosaic Covenant for nearly 1500 years and had failed to meet their end of the agreement over and over again. Their continued rebellion had led God to allow their deportation and captivity in Babylon so that the land, at least, could have its rest (II Chron. 36:20-21). It was during this time of captivity that Jeremiah had written about the “new covenant” through which God would provide regeneration and restoration for Israel.

This was also the time of Ezekiel and his prophecies concerning the future regeneration of Israel–a regeneration which would result in the glorious physical restoration of Israel and ultimately the whole earth. In fact, our Lord’s words in John 3:5 seem certain to have Ezek. 36:25-30 in mind–a passage clearly describing the Divine preparation of Israel for her kingdom.

Also, in light of our Lord’s words to Nicodemas in John 3:14, it is instructive to note that Psalms 22–a Psalm clearly associated with His being “lifted up”–concludes where John 3 beings:

“For the kingdom is the Lord’s and he is the governor among the nations.

“A SEED SHALL SERVE HIM; it shall be accounted to the Lord FOR A GENERATION.
“They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto A PEOPLE THAT SHALL BE BORN, that he hath done this (Psa. 22:28,30,31).

The infancy stage of this “born again” nation is to be found among Christ’s followers. He had promised them:

“Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom” (Luke 12:32).

Thus we are not surprised to find the Apostle Peter later writing to the believers who comprised this “little flock,”

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath BEGOTTEN US AGAIN unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead”
BEING BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever” (I Peter 1:3, 23).

And there can be no doubt as to the hope and calling of those who had thus been born again for he goes on to identify them:

“But YE ARE A CHOSEN GENERATION, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, AN HOLY NATION, A PECULIAR PEOPLE; that ye should shew forth the raises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light” (I Pet. 2:9).

The new birth spoken of by the Lord Jesus in John 3 is a reference to the future birth of the nation Israel when she is to be spiritually cleansed and then possess her land forever. But what about the Body of Christ and the believer today? If the new birth refers to the future hope of the nation Israel, do saved individuals today experience a new birth or does God have something else for them? Remember: both Israel and the Body of Christ are regenerated–but into what?

There can be no doubt that today when a person places faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior–when you rely exclusively on what Jesus Christ did for you at Calvary when He died to pay for your sins and was raised as the author of eternal live to those who trust Him; when you trust Christ today, that very moment God the Holy Spirit imparts His life to you.

Thus Paul declares:

“And YOU HATH HE QUICKENED, WHO WERE DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SINS’
“EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS, [GOD] HATH QUICKENED US TOGETHER WITH CHRIST (by grace are ye saved)” (Eph 2:1, 5).

We are therefore said to be “His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus” (Eph 2:10). But just what is it God is creating today? Eph. 2:15,16 spell it out clearly:

“Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for TO MAKE IN HIMSELF OF TWAIN ONE NEW MAN, so making peace;
“And that he might RECONCILE BOTH UNTO GOD IN ONE BODY by the Cross, having slain the enmity thereby.”

This is the “new creation” which God is forming during the dispensation of grace. God has temporarily set aside the nation Israel and His program for her (Rom. 11:11-15) in order to form another agency (Eph. 2:11-16) through whom He will accomplish a purpose which He planned “before the world began.” This other purpose is called “the mystery” because He kept it secret–“hid in God (Eph. 3:9)–until He revealed it to that other apostle, the Apostle Paul. It is summed up in the words of Eph. 2:7:

“That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.”

Today God is creating a new species of humanity–“neither Jew nor Gentile.” Just as Adam was not born but was rather created, so we go from the old creation into the new creation as we go from Adam into Christ!

To sum up: Regeneration is associated with God’s program for both Israel and the Body of Christ. Regeneration for a Jew in the kingdom program made him a part of a born again nation. Regeneration for a person in the dispensation of grace makes him a part of the Body of Christ, a new creation.

A CONCLUDING QUESTION

Every person reading this article was born into this world spiritually dead in sins, “alienated from the life of God.” The question is: Have you been regenerated? Have you passed from spiritual death to spiritual life by placing your faith in the finished work of Christ? If not, do so now!

[video=youtube;u7Y2Kvm1-N0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Y2Kvm1-N0[/video]
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
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#2
I have died, and born of God, therefore I have been born again.

One sentence.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#3
Looking at Nick's response I guess he must have missed that lesson on "thee, thou, ye, you", eh?

“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
John 3:4
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#4
Hi Romanstophilemon,

Paul, tells us the same thing:


Therefore if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation (2 Cor 5:17)

Born again is spiritual renewal - a new creation .

Oh my Paul keeps talking about this being born again:

For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. (Gal 6:15)

And in fact Peter agrees with both Paul and John:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy he has caused us to be born again to a living hope (1 Pet 1:3).

Paul may use different terminology but the meaning is the same. It is the work of the Holy Spirit who renews the hearts of sinners... It's part of the ONE true Gospel that all the apostles preached.

We are created anew in Christ we are born of the spirit ...isn't that wonderful that all of scripture testifies to this ONE truth?
 
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RomansToPhilemon

Guest
#5
Looking at Nick's response I guess he must have missed that lesson on "thee, thou, ye, you", eh?

“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
John 3:4

I don't think he read anything to be honest. :)
 
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RomansToPhilemon

Guest
#6
Hi Romanstophilemon,

Paul, tells us the same thing:


Therefore if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation (2 Cor 5:17)

Born again is spiritual renewal - a new creation .

Oh my Paul keeps talking about this being born again:

For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. (Gal 6:15)

And in fact Peter agrees with both Paul and John:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy he has caused us to be born again to a living hope (1 Pet 1:3).

Paul may use different terminology but the meaning is the same. It is the work of the Holy Spirit who renews the hearts of sinners... It's part of the ONE true Gospel that all the apostles preached.

We are created anew in Christ we are born of the spirit ...isn't that wonderful that all of scripture testifies to this ONE truth?

Something tells me you didn't read the study. Don't make it so obvious next time ;P
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#7
I don't think he read anything to be honest. :)
But, do you see that his response shows that he understood Jesus was speaking of individuals and not a nation?
 
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RomansToPhilemon

Guest
#9
But, do you see that his response shows that he understood Jesus was speaking of individuals and not a nation?
Yes, most likely because he doesn't use a King James Bible. Where the newer versions use the corrupted manuscripts and teach salvation by works and remove the plural and corporate structure of many verses. And full out attack the apostle Paul's epistles in very deceptive manners.

Her is a good example. ESV version

Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.

Completely loses the fact he addresses Nick and then changes subjects and state Israel. Big deceptions in other bibles.
 
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RomansToPhilemon

Guest
#10
Hi Romanstophilemon,

facetiousness really doesn't help your argument.
I've never taken you seriously. That's actually the funny part. :D
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#11
Yes, most likely because he doesn't use a King James Bible. Where the newer versions use the corrupted manuscripts and teach salvation by works and remove the plural and corporate structure of many verses. And full out attack the apostle Paul's epistles in very deceptive manners.

Her is a good example. ESV version

Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.

Completely loses the fact he addresses Nick and then changes subjects and state Israel. Big deceptions in other bibles.
Sorry, but that is just a MAD invention. You’ll find MAD doesn’t fly around here. Thank God.
 
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RomansToPhilemon

Guest
#12
Sorry, but that is just a MAD invention. You’ll find MAD doesn’t fly around here. Thank God.
I can tell truth doesn't fly around here. I'm also glad many disagree with your statement. Which is why I've been helping many on here in private messages. :)
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
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#13
Sorry, but that is just a MAD invention. You’ll find MAD doesn’t fly around here. Thank God.

I have been to the website talked about by romantophilemn many times in the past before he came to CC.

There is a good thing about the MAD - it's that they emphasize Paul's explanation of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and the new creation and what happened from the cross to the throne and the truth that we too have been included with Christ. That part is rock solid and needed badly in the understanding of the church today.

The KJ "version" only stance unfortunately causes "doctrines that can only be seen in KJV" to appear which of course is complete foolishness.

But let's not throw the baby out with the dirty water. The revelation of the new creation in Christ is paramount to growing up in the Lord and walking by the spirit.
 

NotmebutHim

Senior Member
May 17, 2015
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#14
Hello, I'm Mr. Tilldere. :D
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,617
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#15
I can tell truth doesn't fly around here. I'm also glad many disagree with your statement. Which is why I've been helping many on here in private messages. :)
I'm tracking with you a bit here, but I've never seen this approach before. It is interesting and I will look into it more. I'm one of "those" dispensation believing, KJV believing guys on the board. I know the difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God. I know that in the passage you shared that Jesus is preparing His sheep, the nation of Israel, for the literal, physical, promised kingdom on earth, and only Jesus knew He would have to take care of their spiritual needs first in dying on the cross for their sins. Since the nation of Israel rejected Jesus as their King and Saviour, He turned to the Gentile world through the Apostle Paul with a different program, the body of Christ.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#16
Born again as children of God.

Not even going to touch the dual gospel drivel being promoted. The OP has so many issues and doesn't wish to discuss anything but "teach" false doctrines.

Just posting this for anyone who might be questioning if God wants to adopt you as His child.

He does. His message was not just for Israel.

Galatians 4:6 ►
New International Version
Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#17

I have been to the website talked about by romantophilemn many times in the past before he came to CC.

There is a good thing about the MAD - it's that they emphasize Paul's explanation of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and the new creation and what happened from the cross to the throne and the truth that we too have been included with Christ. That part is rock solid and needed badly in the understanding of the church today.

The KJ "version" only stance unfortunately causes "doctrines that can only be seen in KJV" to appear which of course is complete foolishness.

But let's not throw the baby out with the dirty water. The revelation of the new creation in Christ is paramount to growing up in the Lord and walking by the spirit.
A little truth mixed with a lot of error equals what? Proceed with caution.
 
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RomansToPhilemon

Guest
#19
I'm tracking with you a bit here, but I've never seen this approach before. It is interesting and I will look into it more. I'm one of "those" dispensation believing, KJV believing guys on the board. I know the difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God. I know that in the passage you shared that Jesus is preparing His sheep, the nation of Israel, for the literal, physical, promised kingdom on earth, and only Jesus knew He would have to take care of their spiritual needs first in dying on the cross for their sins. Since the nation of Israel rejected Jesus as their King and Saviour, He turned to the Gentile world through the Apostle Paul with a different program, the body of Christ.


The fact that you understand the bible dispensationally and understand that the KJB is the only true word of God is 90% of the battle as you probably well know. You should watch the video's I have posted on all of my threads. Romans 16.25 says we are to preach Jesus ACCORDING TO the revelation of the mystery. And later on Paul talks about making all men SEE what is the fellowship of the mystery. Satan blinds people from the mystery, because it's through that same mystery Satan is defeated. Major implications once you understand the full scope of what that means. But impossible if you don't know how to rightly divide.



[video=youtube;aFDfQEYJyoY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFDfQEYJyoY[/video]
 
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RomansToPhilemon

Guest
#20
Born again as children of God.

Not even going to touch the dual gospel drivel being promoted. The OP has so many issues and doesn't wish to discuss anything but "teach" false doctrines.

Just posting this for anyone who might be questioning if God wants to adopt you as His child.

He does. His message was not just for Israel.

Galatians 4:6 ►
New International Version
Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

You use the NIV. There is nothing we can even discuss about the matter of this thread. You need to figure out why the NIV contradicts the KJB. Both are supposed the word of God, but both disagree with each other??? What kind of God are you believing in....

Which bible is from God? Which one is Satan's counterfeit? That's the issue you need to figure out. It may even help your nasty attitude :)