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Thread: REVELATION

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    Default REVELATION

    Just some off hand things about Revelation. If you start from chapter 4 and try to read the rest of Revelation as you would any other written description of events you will be confused. There are to be 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel when the tribes of Israel ceased long ago. At the final battle vultures will eat the bodies of horses when horses are not used in battle today. Don't get the wrong idea, I believe that Revelation is inspired of God, however do we assume the 144 thousand Jews just meant consecrated Jews and the horses meant machines? Also, why is Rev written in such an unorthodox manner that it cannot be understood in the traditional way? Anyone have any good answers?

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    Default Re: REVELATION

    They wrote in a manner to describe the future things in terms that they were familiar with at that time,for they did not know the actual names of the things in the future.

    Nah 2:3 The shield of his mighty men is made red, the valiant men are in scarlet: the chariots shall be with flaming torches in the day of his preparation, and the fir trees shall be terribly shaken.
    Nah 2:4 The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.

    This is obviously talking of automobiles in the future,with their headlights,and heavy traffic where they are close to each other,as we see today.Chariot is a form of transportation.The writer did not know the name of the form of transportation automobiles in the future,so the writer said chariots,but he is describing how the form of transportation would be like at the end time.

    Isa 31:4 For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.
    Isa 31:5 As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it.

    The 6 day war when Israel fighter jets paved the way to win that war,and take back control of Jerusalem,did not know what to call them for they did not know they would be called jets in the future,and did not know much about them as we would today,but had a vision of the jets and said as birds flying God will defend Jerusalem,deliver it,and preserve it.

    Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
    Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

    Did not know to call them nuclear weapons,or know about them in detail as today,but this is how John described it.

    When the writers were shown a vision of the future to write down,they described in the terms they knew for that time period,which they would describe things like animals,or like a woman's hair,which means it had power and glory,or something they were familiar with to describe a vision they were not familiar with except that vision.

    We in the future would have more knowledge,and detail,of the things today,and we know the name of them,but they did not back then,but described the vision the best they could with what they knew back then.

    It would be like some people of an isolated tribe coming in contact with civilization and technology,they would describe the things the same way to the people of their tribe using terms they were familiar with,or were the closest related.
    samuel23 likes this.

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    Default Re: REVELATION

    Quote Originally Posted by samuel23 View Post
    Just some off hand things about Revelation. If you start from chapter 4 and try to read the rest of Revelation as you would any other written description of events you will be confused. There are to be 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel when the tribes of Israel ceased long ago. At the final battle vultures will eat the bodies of horses when horses are not used in battle today. Don't get the wrong idea, I believe that Revelation is inspired of God, however do we assume the 144 thousand Jews just meant consecrated Jews and the horses meant machines? Also, why is Rev written in such an unorthodox manner that it cannot be understood in the traditional way? Anyone have any good answers?
    *****for starters----Revelation's unorthodox presentation...
    Why Was the Book of Revelation Written Symbolically?


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    Default Re: REVELATION

    REVELATION

    Just some off hand things about Revelation. If you start from chapter 4 and try to read the rest of Revelation as you would any other written description of events you will be confused. There are to be 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel when the tribes of Israel ceased long ago. At the final battle vultures will eat the bodies of horses when horses are not used in battle today. Don't get the wrong idea, I believe that Revelation is inspired of God, however do we assume the 144 thousand Jews just meant consecrated Jews and the horses meant machines? Also, why is Rev written in such an unorthodox manner that it cannot be understood in the traditional way? Anyone have any good answers?
    Nice to find someone with some sense enough to ask about that. That is just the sort of question many surface readers of the Bible who contribute here need to think about. Don't stop there. What about the sword sticking out of Jesus' mouth, beasts full of eyes before and behind, a Lion from the tribe of Judah (which is a tribe of people not animals), a Lamb opening seals, living fountains of waters (can water be alive?), a bottomless pit (all pits have to have a bottom?), locusts with the faces of men and women's hair, fire coming out of the mouths of two witnesses, and so on and so forth. The answer to your question is this: THE BIBLE MAKES THE CLAIM BY ITS OWN CONFESSION THAT IT IS WRITTEN IN PARABLE FORM. Psalm 78:1-2 contains: "Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. I will open my mouth in a parable" Mark 4:34 clues us in to the fact that the Bible was written in parable form by telling us very very plainly: "But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples." In explaining how the Bible is written in parables Jesus uses the parable of the sower, explaining that the word of God is what is sown. He goes on to explain that the surface story of a parable is not really the intended meaning. Rather, the interpreted meaning is what is really being said. Words in the surface story have interpreted meanings, revolving around the theme of God's salvation plan. Thorns are not really thorns that you find in your back yard, but are, instead, describing people who have "the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful." The seed is not literal physical seeds from a tomato plant or something like that, but the seed is the word of God, and so forth. That is the way with parables. There is a hidden real meaning. By comparing like words in the Bible with other like words in the Bible (comparing spiritual with spiritual as it says in Corinthians) perhaps God will reveal meanings to saved persons as he sees fit. Take for example in the book of Revelation that you are interested in. The Bible tells us that the sword of the spirit is the word of God. When Jesus is depicted in a surface story as having a sword coming out of his mouth, it does not mean a metal sword. Rather, the word of God. When we see a surface story of him on a white horse, we should note that the Bible says God will make Jerusalem his battle horse. And Jerusalem is futher said to be true believers, not just the surface account of the ancient physical city. When the book of Revelation talks about the people of the east, it does not mean just Chinese or oriental people, it means the people of Christ (the east is referring to Christ), and when the book of Revelation says the Euphrates will dry up, it doesn't mean the physical river. It means the gospel dries up in the congregations. Further, when Revelation talks about a city the New Jerusalem with streets of gold, it doesn't mean a physical city and physical gold most likely. But rather, it means the people who belong to Christ and the way to walk correctly in the Lord. And so on...

    Thanks for asking this much relevant and needed question.

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    Default Re: REVELATION

    Quote Originally Posted by samuel23 View Post
    Just some off hand things about Revelation.

    If you start from chapter 4 and try to read the rest of Revelation as you would any other written description of events you will be confused. At Chapter 4, The Church has experienced Harpozo and everything hence turns toward Israel, God's chosen people.

    There are to be 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel when the tribes of Israel ceased long ago. Even today, Israel has found the heirs of the Levi Tribe in order to service the new temple when it is rebuilt. Plus, the fact that it is evident that you do not believe after all God has done, He can not tell the difference in the different tribes DNA...We can today tell people who their ancestors were by their DNA. The 144,000 Jews are Rabi/others who have dedicated their life to God and are unspoiled.They will preach His word to the masses that have been left behind. Yes, they will be everywhere in the world.

    At the final battle vultures will eat the bodies of horses when horses are not used in battle today. Don't get the wrong idea, I believe that Revelation is inspired of God, however do we assume the 144 thousand Jews just meant consecrated Jews and the horses meant machines?Horses in this part of the world are used all the time. A horse Calvary is still in operation in the USA. Having said that, countries do own tanks, etc. but in the deserts, the main transportation is a camel or a horse. one other item,,,,Since before the 7 year tribulations began there have been wars and rumors of wars, several wars that were prophesied, (Elam, Psalm 83, Damascus, Gog/MaGog, etc) At the end of these wars how many tanks, chariots, and other war machines are still around for the final round with Jesus (2nd coming). God tells us that when HE ends the Gog/MaGog war, Israel will burn the weapons for 7 years...Nuclear sounds like to me but we just do not know.

    Also, why is Rev written in such an unorthodox manner that it cannot be understood in the traditional way? Anyone have any good answers? Revelation is written by John as to what he had seen. Rem, the Red Dragon to him was a Red Dragon. The beast was like the beast in Daniel, so terrible that even he could not describe it. We know that from history this beast was Rome and her army. Revelation has 402 verses yet it refers to the OT around 800 times. Use this to your advantage in understanding some passage in Revelation.

    Keep in mind that the Bible has some 200 different forms of speech fro the front cover to the back cover. Although, one should read it literally, the use of the other forms when it is suggested by the text is recommended.

    There you go,,hope it helps.????????????????????



    Samuel, it seems you and have been here before and you did not listen then which almost makes it a sure thing you will not listen know. However, because of the words of a friend here on the forum, I will try one more time.
    Like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 (KJV) "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

    With Jesus Christ as your savior, The Holy Spirit will teach you if you are willing to learn from Him. He will guide you in daily activities if you will listen to Him. He will protect and maintain your soul in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit if you will let Him.

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    Default Re: REVELATION

    Hello samuel23,

    If you start from chapter 4 and try to read the rest of Revelation as you would any other written description of events you will be confused. At Chapter 4, The Church has experienced Harpazo and everything hence turns toward Israel, God's chosen people.


    You are correct in that, the Rev.4:1 is prophetic of the church being gathered. That "voice that sounds like a trumpets saying 'come up here' is synonymous with the trumpet call of God in 1 Thes.4:16. After Rev.4:1 the focus will be on the woman/Israel, as well as the 144,000, the great tribulation saints and the inhabitants of the earth, all who have not believed.

    At the final battle vultures will eat the bodies of horses when horses are not used in battle today


    Neither are swords and spears, yet at the time of Christ's return, scripture states that the nations will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Isaiah is seeing a vision of the far future, do you actually think that he is going to be able to communicate the weaponry of the future when he has nothing to compare them to?

    It is the same for John in the book of Revelation when he sees the future and attempts to describe the "mark" going in the right hand or forehead. John can't say, "He forces all both great and small, rich and poor, free and slave to have a chip implant that will allow all the inhabitants of the earth to electronically credit and debit their bank accounts." The closest John can come is the word "chargma" which is defined as, an etching, branding, signet, seal, engraving, etc. Otherwise, he had nothing in his time period to describe what he was seeing.


    Regarding horses, they obviously will be present at Armageddon and that because the birds eat their flesh.

    however do we assume the 144 thousand Jews just meant consecrated Jews


    We don't need to assume that they are 144,000 who come out of Israel, because John says, "I heard the number of those being sealed, 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. Then he breaks that number down to 12,000 and lists the name of each tribe. The 144,000 will come out of Israel (gives birth to) who will be the first fruits to God out of Israel. The woman/unbelieving Israel, will be cared for out in the wilderness for that last 3 1/2 years, where somewhere during that time, she will also come to the knowledge that Jesus is their Messiah.

    Also, why is Rev written in such an unorthodox manner that it cannot be understood in the traditional way? Anyone have any good answers?


    The answer is, because God likes for us to search out his word, where the Holy Spirit reveals the deeper truths of God's word to those who diligently want to understand these things.
    Last edited by Ahwatukee; February 4th, 2017 at 01:57 AM.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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    Default Re: REVELATION

    Hello Birdie,

    Don't stop there. What about the sword sticking out of Jesus' mouth


    It is obvious that there are symbolism's throughout the book of Revelation, but the answers to the literal meaning behind those symbols are revealed in scripture. For example, regarding the double-edged sword, please consider the following:

    "
    For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."

    "
    In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."

    Taking the two scripture above into consideration, we can then conclude that the double-edged sword is symbolic representing the word of God. In John's vision he sees an actual sword coming out of the Lord's mouth and that so that John would write it down that way. We who are studying God's word can then determine what the symbolism is referring to.

    beasts full of eyes before and behind,


    These "beasts full of eyes" are cherubim and they literally have eyes covering their entire body. They also have four to six wings and four faces each. We know this because Isaiah, Ezekiel and John all saw the same four living beings and described them in the same manner. They appear to be a special type of angelic beings.

    a Lion from the tribe of Judah


    This is just one of the many designations of Jesus Christ, who is also referred to as Emmanuel, the sheep gate, the Lamb that was slain, the
    Passover Lamb, the bread from heaven, the Rock, Son of man, eternal life, the King of kings and the Lord of lords, etc., etc. These are all symbolism, figures of speech as designations describing the Lord.

    a bottomless pit (all pits have to have a bottom?), locusts with the faces of men and women's hair


    The bottomless pit/Abyss, is within the heart of the earth and therefore cannot be bottomless, but is meant to convey the idea of it being a very deep place.

    fire coming out of the mouths of two witnesses


    Fire coming out of the mouth of the two witnesses is meant in the literal sense, as there is nothing in the context to lead the reader to a symbolic interpretation. If you find that hard to imagine, just remember that, God is also going to give them power to bring every kind of plague upon the earth that they want, as many times as they want. At the 6th trumpet there are going to be demonic beings which will kill a third of the earth with fire, smoke and sulfur issuing from their mouths. There are going to be a lot of supernatural events taking place during that last seven years. Also, we have to remember that with God noting is impossible. God could have put us on Venus instead and given us bodies that could withstand the pressure and heat of that planet and made our bodies so that eating rocks for our nutrition. My point being that, I don't find two men having fire issuing from their mouths as being out of the realm of God's abilities.

    THE BIBLE MAKES THE CLAIM BY ITS OWN CONFESSION THAT IT IS WRITTEN IN PARABLE FORM. Psalm 78:1-2 contains: "Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. I will open my mouth in a parable" Mark 4:34 clues us in to the fact that the Bible was written in parable form by telling us very very plainly: "But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples."
    The above is one of the most misquoted sayings in scripture. Jesus clearly told his disciples that he spoke to "that generation generation of Israel" in parables and that because of a prophecy. Please see the following:

    =============================================

    The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

    He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.This is why I speak to them in parables:“Though seeing, they do not see;
    though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

    In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:“ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
    you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
    For this people’s heart has become calloused;
    they hardly hear with their ears,
    and they have closed their eyes.
    Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    hear with their ears,
    understand with their hearts
    and turn, and I would heal them.’

    But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

    =========================================

    So in the scripture above, Jesus says that the disciples-- who would also be representing the entire church--the knowledge of the kingdom has been given to us, but not to them (that generation of Israel.) And the reason that Jesus spoke to that generation of Israel in parables was in fulfillment of the scripture above found in Isaiah. Therefore, Jesus is not speaking to the church in parables, but to that generation of Israel. People try to use this scripture to suggest that we as believers can't understand what the symbolism's of scripture mean, which is false.

    When we see a surface story of him on a white horse, we should note that the Bible says God will make Jerusalem his battle horse.


    When Jesus returns to the earth and the church with him, we will all literally be riding on white horses out of heaven as we descend with him to the earth to end the age. The white horse that appears in the first seal, which is the antichrist, is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse in Rev.19:11.

    and when the book of Revelation says the Euphrates will dry up, it doesn't mean the physical river. It means the gospel dries up in the congregations.


    The drying up of the Euphrates river is meant to be taken literally, for the reason is so that the literal kings of the east can come across to Armageddon for that great battle, which really isn't a battle at all. For Christ just speaks and they all die. We know that it is literal because at the pouring out of the 6th bowl, those three spirits of demons go out into the whole world and gather the kings of the earth for battle (Rev.16:14)

    Further, when Revelation talks about a city the New Jerusalem with streets of gold, it doesn't mean a physical city and physical gold most likely. But rather, it means the people who belong to Christ and the way to walk correctly in the Lord.


    Actually, the new Jerusalem will be a literal city. Whenever you have something such as the new Jerusalem with so much detail, such as its measurements, that it has twelve gates each made from a single pearl, each foundation made of a different gem and so on, then it is speaking of a literal city that will come down out of the new atmosphere and new earth. Paul even speaks of the New Jerusalem, referring to the OT people of faith who were looking for that new city that God has made for them.

    =======================================

    By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

    All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

    ==============================================
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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    Default Re: REVELATION

    Quote Originally Posted by 88 View Post
    *****for starters----Revelation's unorthodox presentation...
    Why Was the Book of Revelation Written Symbolically?
    Hello 88,

    The answer is that, the book of Revelation is not all symbolic. The book should be read just like any other book, at face value. After all, right at the beginning of the book we are told the following:

    "The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

    How could we know what was going to take place or know what we are reading or believing unless we are believing what the book is saying? If the literal sense makes good sense, then don't see any other sense. One of the biggest on-going problems with those who study this book, is that they do so with the popular belief that it is all symbolism. By approaching the book this way, they miss the literal meanings that God intended to convey.

    For the most part, the book of Revelation is meant to be read in the literal sense unless a symbolic interpretation is required. A dragon with seven heads and ten horns and the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, is a good example of symbolism. Yet, the book of Revelation and other scriptures reveal the literal meaning behind those symbols
    .

    Attempting to make everything symbolic will just make the book impossible to understand.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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    Default Re: REVELATION

    Revelation relies heavily on the OT and bases many features in the visions on events described in its books. For example the plagues depicted are identical to those sent on Egypt but have a much wider application. Without a fairly good knowledge of the OT much of Revelation remains a mystery. Another important element regarding understanding the contents is knowing about the Jewish festivals and how they apply to the first and second coming of Jesus. John and the people who read the book had a first Century and Jewish mind set. Jewish ways of reading and interpreting Scripture was and still is different to the western way of viewing things.
    JaumeJ and Timeline like this.

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    Default Re: REVELATION

    Quote Originally Posted by samuel23 View Post
    Just some off hand things about Revelation. If you start from chapter 4 and try to read the rest of Revelation as you would any other written description of events you will be confused. There are to be 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel when the tribes of Israel ceased long ago. At the final battle vultures will eat the bodies of horses when horses are not used in battle today. Don't get the wrong idea, I believe that Revelation is inspired of God, however do we assume the 144 thousand Jews just meant consecrated Jews and the horses meant machines? Also, why is Rev written in such an unorthodox manner that it cannot be understood in the traditional way? Anyone have any good answers?
    I think Revelation is written in a form that is so confusing to the human mind that no man will figure out any part of it without the Holy Spirits help.

    As to your questions about literal occurring, I believe there will be the literal but it isn't always as we expect. For instance, how confusing must it have been for those who read the OT before Christ came? Can you imagine the debates they would have had?
    No, the Messiah will come from Nazareth! No, you have no clue how to read or understand the Torah! It clearly says He will come from Egypt. No, you BOTH are idiots. It clearly says...and you are confusing verses that don't talk about Him!


    But in His literal life, the prophecy was fulfilled in a literal way and it COULD be said that the Messiah came from all the 3 different places it said He would. So mens arguing was based on limited understanding and meanwhile, three wise men got it right as to which would be His birthplace. Who knows if they understood everything about all three places, but the entire nation that should have known about whatever the star was - they were shocked at the wise mens report. It says something like...and Herod and the whole nation of Israel were in turmoil and confusion over what the wise men said.

    So why shouldn't there be a literal fulfillment of the rest of prophecy, even though maybe not exactly how we have it worked out? For instance, yeah, we don't use horses in war anymore. But what if all the oil fields are set on fire and the flow of oil is stopped? It would throw the whole world into turmoil, and wouldn't it be illegal then to have a horse of your own? Wouldn't the military of every government conscript every single horse in the world?and wouldn't they take land for the specific use of breeding more horses? Yes, this is all a guess as to how it could happen with the horses, but you don't take Gods word - prophecy - and say it is impossible that what God said will happen will happen, because horses aren't used in war any more. You believe the prophecy, even if you don't understand how it will happen.

    There is a terrifying verse in Revelation that says in the future there will be a time when men will want to die and seek and try to die but they won't be able to. Do I look at it and say it is impossible because there are guns, knives, ropes, pills, poisons, tall buildings to jump off of and so there will never be a time when men will be unable to kill themselves? Or do I believe the prophecy and marvel over whether science will, at the very end of time, somehow find a fountain of youth and indestructability?
    We can ponder and guess at all the ways the prophecy will come to pass, but God says, in the end, it will all happen exactly as He said to all His prophets. That's also a verse from Revelation.

    Just as the parables weren't for all men to understand but for those who followed Him to understand, Revelation seems impossible to understand apart from the Spirit to explain it to a man.

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    Default Re: REVELATION

    Quote Originally Posted by samuel23 View Post
    Just some off hand things about Revelation. If you start from chapter 4 and try to read the rest of Revelation as you would any other written description of events you will be confused. There are to be 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel when the tribes of Israel ceased long ago. At the final battle vultures will eat the bodies of horses when horses are not used in battle today. Don't get the wrong idea, I believe that Revelation is inspired of God, however do we assume the 144 thousand Jews just meant consecrated Jews and the horses meant machines? Also, why is Rev written in such an unorthodox manner that it cannot be understood in the traditional way? Anyone have any good answers?
    Why not hourses ? Do you think that the Army of the Anti Christ will have enough modern transport to move an army of hundereds of millions ? So yeah the army may well have many horses..

    Revelation is written in a way that makes it have many possible interpretations.. So as to stop people understanding the details until God allows people to understand it by The Leading of His Holy Spirit..

    The tribes of Israel did not cease long ago.. They where driven into exile into the nations.. Just because we cannot identify them today does not mean there are descendants of the 12 tribes today that will be sealed among the 144,000..

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    Blade, I have no idea what you are taking about, been here before? I have never posted something like this about Revelation before, you and I have disagreed over the pre-trib rapture if that is what you mean?

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    Had some really interesting replies. I really do not have that much trouble with symbolism in Revelation or any other part of the bible, I do have trouble with the unorthodox way that Revelation is written. The bible is full of symbols, yet it is written in the same manner as any writing would be, not so Revelation. If you try to read Revelation as you would read any other part of the bible you will be confused, and that is confusing! It is obvious that God wanted the original readers of Revelation to understand it and also us today. So has anyone produced a method that unravels Revelation so that it can be read and understood just like any other place in the bible? I have tried with limited success.

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    Default Re: REVELATION

    1. Revelation was written in code so that the Roman officials wouldn't understand it.

    2. Have you read Ezekiel or Isaiah? Many of the symbolic is mirrored in both prophets writtings. Revelation is not that strange.

    3. If you truly seek insight, study the prophecy in the OT and how they were fulfilled in history.

    4. I believe some of revelation was fulfilled in the 1st century, but some are yet to be fulfilled.

    5. Not understanding revelation does not mean you aren't saved and beloved by God. Not a salvation topic.

    6. Some folks faith in their understanding can cause them to act in an unChrist manner

    7.Jesus says we do not know the time of the the final day of judgment. Anyone who claims they do know, is lying.

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    revelation is the NT completion of daniels prophesies of world events.. I believe much like pre-christ. we can guess at what things will look like. but until it actually happens. that is all we can do..
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    We understand something that is written by a series of progressive steps, each building on the previous step so that we can look back as looking down a stairway and see that everything is in order from beginning to end. I believe the difference between Revelation and other books of the bible(all books) is that the forward progression of steps is at times interrupted and we are temporarily lead completely away from the stairway in order to explain more carefully a pertinent subject. After the particular subject has been explained, then the forward progression is continued up the stairway. I think one must first describe the basic steps from beginning to end without worrying about the places where the steps disappear and begin again. Once the basic progressive steps are in place, then go back and examine each place where a stop was made in order to explain something. First I will attempt to describe the basic steps that are in order. First, Antichrist on white horse, followed by great war, famine, disease, death, great persecution of believers, one fourth of the earth dies. Then the heavens are shaken and people hide because it is the time of Christ return. Special people of the Jews are sealed and the church is in Heaven after having gone through that time of tribulation and been raptured. The wrath of the Lamb has begin, those steps are all clear, but now they disappear and reappear much later when Jesus personally defeats the Antichrist. In between those steps are a lot of side issues, some of which happened in the previous known steps, and that is where much of the mystery of Revelation is found.
    Last edited by samuel23; February 4th, 2017 at 11:13 AM.

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    Senior Member tanakh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adstar View Post
    Why not hourses ? Do you think that the Army of the Anti Christ will have enough modern transport to move an army of hundereds of millions ? So yeah the army may well have many horses..

    Revelation is written in a way that makes it have many possible interpretations.. So as to stop people understanding the details until God allows people to understand it by The Leading of His Holy Spirit..

    The tribes of Israel did not cease long ago.. They where driven into exile into the nations.. Just because we cannot identify them today does not mean there are descendants of the 12 tribes today that will be sealed among the 144,000..
    Horses stopped being an intregal part of armies in WW1. The idea of a future army having millions of horses at its disposal is beyond belief. Any human army that relied on horses now would be decimated by tanks and missiles
    Many of the descriptions in Revelation and elsewhere are an aid to understanding for those who first read it and
    for those in Generations that would be familiar with them.

    If the 14400 are Jews from the twelve tribes of Israel. Are they all in Israel now? Do they all have proof of what tribe they belong to? Are they all virgins? Lastly do they all believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour and Messiah.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tanakh View Post
    Revelation relies heavily on the OT and bases many features in the visions on events described in its books. For example the plagues depicted are identical to those sent on Egypt but have a much wider application. Without a fairly good knowledge of the OT much of Revelation remains a mystery.

    You are right here Tanakh... the Holy Bible is a book of 66 books that were divinely design by God Himself. One will find that each book of the Bible is like a woven quilt in that each part is a integral part of the whole BOOK.

    Another important element regarding understanding the contents is knowing about the Jewish festivals and how they apply to the first and second coming of Jesus. John and the people who read the book had a first Century and Jewish mind set. Jewish ways of reading and interpreting Scripture was and still is different to the western way of viewing things.

    Why are they different.. Because they rejected Jesus Christ as their Messiah Nagid. Because the temple was destroyed and worse yet, under gentile control (even today), they have no place to dissipate their sins, thus the Talmud, considered an 'ORAL Tanakh' as practiced by Judaism.

    These is a bright spot on the Israeli near future. That is there has been a large increase in the Jews converting to Christianity. This along with Muslims converting to Christianity at a staggering 20% (in Iran and other places around the world). Jesus Has been busy.



    Tanahk,,,,,Have a question for you/ Why is it that the some of the Jewish people still believe in the Talmud and not Christianity or they do not believe Jesus is or will be their Messiah Nagid.
    Like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 (KJV) "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

    With Jesus Christ as your savior, The Holy Spirit will teach you if you are willing to learn from Him. He will guide you in daily activities if you will listen to Him. He will protect and maintain your soul in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit if you will let Him.

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    Default Re: REVELATION

    Quote Originally Posted by tanakh View Post
    Horses stopped being an intregal part of armies in WW1. The idea of a future army having millions of horses at its disposal is beyond belief. Any human army that relied on horses now would be decimated by tanks and missiles
    Many of the descriptions in Revelation and elsewhere are an aid to understanding for those who first read it and
    for those in Generations that would be familiar with them.
    what would a person who never saw a tank or method of transportation we have today? All he knew was horses.
    If the 14400 are Jews from the twelve tribes of Israel. Are they all in Israel now? Do they all have proof of what tribe they belong to? Are they all virgins? Lastly do they all believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour and Messiah.

    1. No they do not have to be in Israel.
    2. God knows. that is all that matters right?
    3. What does the passage say
    4. Yes, if they are going to be a witness to Jesus, and have a seal. they would all be saved.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    I have often thought that if Jesus had returned in the first century then the bible would make perfect sense. The message in Daniel that during the reign of the 4th beast(Rome) that God would set up a kingdom on earth(perfect fit). The Ruler that was(Nero or whoever) and the one to come(Antichrist), and the great urgency that it was about to happen would also fit. The great tribulation and signs would go nicely with what happened, however everything continued as always and so many years later it still is. People who are not Christians think we are crazy, believing in a return of Christ that should have happened 1900 years ago. If I did not personally know the Lord I would think we are crazy.

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