why does" Grace" change the word?

[followjesus]

1 thessolanians 4:1-12 "Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. 2For ye know what COMMANDMENTS we gave you BY THE LORD JESUS. 3For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; 5Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:6That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

7For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. 8He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.9But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another. 10And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more; 11And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you; 12That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing."


some doctrines will tell you " Paul was just explaining who we are now in Christ there is no commandments just believe Just Love paul wasnt giving instructions or teaching us about the coming Judgement we all must face.......i would suggest actually reading paul himself rather than what an author tells you paul is saying or doing. Paul was a teacher, that was expounding revelation from the Gospel, He endorsed every Word of Jesus as the Word of His Lord and Savior. a STUDENT or disciple of Jesus, made from revelation by Gods spirit. He is absolutely just like all the rest teaching us how to live pleasing Lives in Gods sight. as well as expounding on other things we are to understand. false doctrines get way off track from the Word of God, anyone who thinks its not important to stick with what is taught, is in a bad area. the Bible is meant to be believed and lived its meant to change Us inwardly because we believe God said these things, and taught us His ways that we may Have eternal Life as His children.

Our place is to accept what God has said through Jesus to all who will believe.....all we Know of God comes from the Knowledge within the scriptures, and God meant it to be that way, thats why salvation requires faith in Gods Word. in the beginning was the word, andthe word was God....Gods spirit is conveyed through His word, when there is faith that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him of a pure Heart....just consider it

 

[phil36]

Hi Followjesus,

I hope you don't mind but I have made your text a little bit bigger so people like me with Glasses can read it





1 thessolanians 4:1-12 "Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. 2For ye know what COMMANDMENTS we gave you BY THE LORD JESUS. 3For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; 5Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:6That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

7For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. 8He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.9But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another. 10And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more; 11And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you; 12That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing."


some doctrines will tell you " Paul was just explaining who we are now in Christ there is no commandments just believe Just Love paul wasnt giving instructions or teaching us about the coming Judgement we all must face.......i would suggest actually reading paul himself rather than what an author tells you paul is saying or doing. Paul was a teacher, that was expounding revelation from the Gospel, He endorsed every Word of Jesus as the Word of His Lord and Savior. a STUDENT or disciple of Jesus, made from revelation by Gods spirit. He is absolutely just like all the rest teaching us how to live pleasing Lives in Gods sight. as well as expounding on other things we are to understand. false doctrines get way off track from the Word of God, anyone who thinks its not important to stick with what is taught, is in a bad area. the Bible is meant to be believed and lived its meant to change Us inwardly because we believe God said these things, and taught us His ways that we may Have eternal Life as His children.

Our place is to accept what God has said through Jesus to all who will believe.....all we Know of God comes from the Knowledge within the scriptures, and God meant it to be that way, thats why salvation requires faith in Gods Word. in the beginning was the word, andthe word was God....Gods spirit is conveyed through His word, when there is faith that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him of a pure Heart....just consider it

 

[Ariel82]

The Wesley Center Online: Sermon 16 - The Means Of Grace

Read/listened to this sermon today. I believe covered the topic well.

https://archive.org/details/44SermonsOfJohnWesley-Audio

 

[Ariel82]

;

the whole body of Christians being agreed, that Christ had ordained certain outward means, for conveying his grace into the souls of men. Their constant practice set this beyond all dispute; for so long as "all that believed were together, and had all things common," (Acts 2:44,) "they continued steadfastly in the teaching of the Apostles, and in the breaking of bread, and in prayers." (Acts 2:42.)

summary: the outward ordinance of faith is the breaking of bread and prayers.

But in process of time, when "the love of many waxed cold," some began to mistake the means for the end, and to place religion rather in doing those outward works, than in a heart renewed after the image of God. They forgot that "the end of" every "commandment is love, out of a pure heart," with "faith unfeigned;" the loving the Lord their God with all their heart, and their neighbour as themselves; and the being purified from pride, anger, and evil desire, by a "faith of the operation of God." Others seemed to imagine, that though religion did not principally consist in these outward means, yet there was something in them wherewith God was well pleased: something that would still make them acceptable in his sight, though they were not exact in the weightier matters of the law, in justice, mercy, and the love of God.

Some people think that the outward can replace the inward purification and grace given by God. They are wrong and twice condemned as children of hell

3. It is evident, in those who abused them thus, they did not conduce to the end for which they were ordained: Rather, the things which should have been for their health, were to them an occasion of falling. They were so far from receiving any blessing therein, that they only drew down a curse upon their head; so far from growing more heavenly in heart and life, that they were two-fold more the children of hell than before. Others, clearly perceiving that these means did not convey the grace of God to those children of the devil, began, from this particular case, to draw a general conclusion, -- that they were not means of conveying the grace of God.

Anyway found it interesting and wanted to share.

 

[followjesus]

; summary: the outward ordinance of faith is the breaking of bread and prayers.



Some people think that the outward can replace the inward purification and grace given by God. They are wrong and twice condemned as children of hell




Anyway found it interesting and wanted to share.

it is interesting indeed. purification according to Jesus isnt accomplished By Grace though in my own understanding.

john 15:3 "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. "

ephesians 5:26-27 "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

There are cleansing rites taught in the Law of moses, various rules detailing different situations and what the child of God was to do to be considered clean again after for example " touching a dead body, or having an emmission of semen, or a woman after Her monthly "uncleanliness" the Law taught what to do in different circumstances like these to cleanse yourself before God. Jesus gospel is about cleansing the inner places of our heart, or " the inside of the dish" which He says " then the outside will be clean"

David prayed " creat in me a clean Heart o Lord" The gospel does this centering on the inner attitudes of our heart " Lust, hate, greed, unforgiveness, pride, envy ect.. His word is what cleanses us His teachings, His ways, the gospel.

this is my own understanding though, thanks for sharing that God bless you.

 

[p_rehbein]

Have read the OP comment three times now, and I can not see how it has anything to do with the Title of the Thread.

???

 

[Ariel82]

Jesus blood purified us. First and foremost. Otherwise the outward ordinances are worthless.

********

Romans 3:25
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Hebrews 9:12-14
and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

[lastofall]

[for me anyway] Paul was not speaking of his own self, rather the Holy Spirit of Truth was speaking through Him. As for grace, if we view grace in comparison to the law: the law was judgment without mercy, whereas grace is mercy without judgment through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[PeterJens]

Is the title actually, why does GRACE change the world?

Jesus is all about facing sin and blindness and opening up to pain and loss
so that some might repent and be healed.

To be open costs, because it hurts. But God says love does not count this
cost, it is prepared to be hurt so that healing might flow.

If you ever have to look after a baby, you are in control, but you focus is
on the needs of the child, not yourself. That is grace, and it hurts and costs.

 

[followjesus]

Jesus blood purified us. First and foremost. Otherwise the outward ordinances are worthless.

********

Romans 3:25
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Hebrews 9:12-14
and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

so then were not cleansed by Grace? do you realize whats being said there in Hebrews? hat the author is making the comparison between the old system of sacrifice, and The new? without Hearing the word, no one would Know any of this, we wouldnt hear anything about Jesus blood cleansing our conscience if it wasnt written.....<<<<< we are cleansed By The word, the things God teaches us in the Bible thats my point. he word tells us of Jesus blood and exlains the things God teaches

John 15:1-11 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3Now ye are clean THROUGH THE WORD which I have spoken unto you. 4ABIDE IN ME, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6If a man ABIDE NOT IN ME, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7If ye abide in me, and MY WORDS ABIDE IN YOU, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10If YE KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, YE SHALL ABIDE in my love; even AS I HAVE KEPT my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11THESE THINGS have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that YOUR JOY might be full."

to find a verse saying one thing, doesnt change the things The Lord said. It is all about Jesus and His word, He said everything is why we Know it, we are required to Believe Jesus its really quite simple. Learn and believe the things Jesus taught because He is the Christ, the One God Sent to teach us the truth. Nothing Jesus said, will change.

 

[followjesus]

Is the title actually, why does GRACE change the world?

Jesus is all about facing sin and blindness and opening up to pain and loss
so that some might repent and be healed.

To be open costs, because it hurts. But God says love does not count this
cost, it is prepared to be hurt so that healing might flow.

If you ever have to look after a baby, you are in control, but you focus is
on the needs of the child, not yourself. That is grace, and it hurts and costs.

it probably should have been " why does the word grace, change Gods Truth" or something along those lines. The grace taught correctly is one thing, but the grace that omits the validity of the gospel " changes" the word in certain minds"

its like having 3 teenagers, you tell them all" if you clean your rooms, well go to the fair, but if you dont clean your room you dont get to go and youll be grounded for a week"

One Kid Hers His parent, gets to work cleaning His room, another Kid tries to say " ill do it later dad can i still go, dad says nope i already made my offer your choice the fair, or be grounded so the Kid repents and goes and cleans his room"

well, the 3rd Kid He is different He thinks this " Im dads favorite, He said we have to clean our rooms, but hell never ground me, and hell take me too, its just an idle threat. I dont need to do what He says, He is good and He loves me, so instead of cleaning my room, im gonna go upstairs and put together a nice outfit so i can look good when im at the fair"

Gods word is all about learning and obeying Gods will that is expressed to us in His word, the gog teaches " because Im a son, what dad says is irrelevant im favored, im the favorite, im above His rules" it even goes further " those 2 kids actually cleaning thier room haha man they'll never be able to go to the fair like me, they just should know that because dad loves us......what He says to do is irrelevant."

modern grace distortion is a terrible thing man, like spoiling children.

 

[Grace777x70]

I have never in my life heard anyone ever say that " what my dad says is irrelevant" and I have listened to over a thousand messages on the grace of God.

In fact I hear the complete opposite. I heard that grace "teaches" us how to live godly in this present world. I myself have posted Titus 2:11-12 over 100x times and so have many others.

I have heard that sin shall not have dominion over us because we are not under law but grace only.

I have heard that the "word of His grace" is able to build us up and brings the inheritance of Christ that is ours to experience God's quality of life.

Acts 20:32 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.


I heave heard like Peter said that we are to fix our hope completely on the grace that comes with the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 1:13

What I have seen is that some say people are not obeying God because they don't "interpret some scriptures like they do" and so they label them as being dis-obedient to God - which of course is complete foolishness and thus opens them up to live in malice and slander towards others in the body of Christ. Then bitterness sets in and many can get defiled. Heb 12:15.

It's time for all of us to grow in the grace an knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[stonesoffire]

There are two words in Greek used for our one English word, commandments, with two seperate meanings.

ἐντολή
entolē
en-tol-ay'
From G1781; injunction, that is, an authoritative prescription: - commandment, precept.
Total KJV occurrences: 71

This is used in teachings concerning Gods laws. What one must do to follow Gods way.

Its a means of controlling behavior. One can do everything asked to do but what affect is on the heart?

The Cross of Jesus Christ is active in our life by faith in what Jesus finished there for all men. When believed on, grace, the power of Holy Spirit does an act of circumcision on our heart. Cuts flesh, the power of sin broken, and we literally in Spirit are reborn. Then we learn how to live according to His power, working in our life.

Paul is saying he is pleased by the report that he received about the Thessalonians faith holding fast, and hears his work there was not in vain. So he encourages them to excel even moreso, by true love for the brethren.

The Word commandment here is:


[h=1]G3852[/h]παραγγελία
paraggelia
par-ang-gel-ee'-ah
From G3853; a mandate: - charge, command.
Total KJV occurrences: 5

[h=1]G3853[/h]παραγγέλλω
paraggellō
par-ang-gel'-lo
From G3844 and the base of G32; to transmit a message, that is, (by implication) to enjoin: - (give in) charge, (give) command (-ment), declare.


Do you see the difference?

 

[Ariel82]

Been debating with myself if this will become a train wreck or not.

1. Will someone define the word "grace"?

Followjesus, could you answer the following:

2.what do you believe God commands that is parallel to "cleaning ones room"?

3. What do you compare to "going to the fair"?

4. How are people saved?

 

[stonesoffire]

[h=1]G5485[/h]χάρις
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

 

[PeterJens]

modern grace distortion is a terrible thing man, like spoiling children.

I have heard preachers say, Jesus's words before the cross are old covenant so can be ignored,
only stuff after the cross can be regarded as sound for believers.

Or a warning about Gods attitude to sin is written by a prophet so old covenant.

It is like saying if you do evil then, it was really bad, but now it is ok.

This is an odd moral difference, because murder is murder no matter when you do it,
and the sin that motivated it destroys our very hearts. We are only saved because

1. of Gods forgiveness through faith in the cross
2. our relationship with God through faith
3. our desire to walk in His ways.

Remove any one of these 3 parts and we are lost.
But it appears only the first of these 3 is essential for some.

For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 6:40

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit
1 Cor 6:19

I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.
Eph 3:16-17

You are my friends if you do what I command.
John 15:14

This is our inheritence victory over the flesh to walk in the Spirit.

 

[stonesoffire]

This is our inheritence victory over the flesh to walk in the Spirit.


Jesus died and left us an inheritance Peter. What is the inheritance He gave? How does one gain the victory over flesh?

 

[Grace777x70]

Personally I believe there are different aspects to the grace of God. Both aspects are God's divine influence on the heart of man to show His kindness and love towards us - which is unmerited - meaning - you do nothing to achieve or earn this grace. It's like getting the wet with the water. When you get Jesus - you get grace. Be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

Grace doesn't leave you in the condition you were found in.

There are 2 aspects to grace. The very first thing that Jesus does with the woman caught in adultery is that He gets rid of her accusers - the religious Pharisees that wanted to condemn her because the "bible" said so in the Old Covenant...she was to be stoned. ( the law condemns us )

Jesus was the only one qualified to condemn her but He didn't.


1) acceptance grace - which has nothing to do with our behavior - as seen with the woman caught in adultery. Our Lord beautifully says " I do not condemn you".

It is in knowing you are not condemned that releases the other aspect of grace.

2) now, go and sin no more - this is empowering grace.

Empowering grace enables you to be who the Father sees you are in Christ now because you are a new creation in Him.


The religious mindset says to the woman caught in adultery - 'Do not sin and we will not condemn you."

The grace of God and the blood of Jesus speaks of better things in this New Covenant of grace!

"Knowing" that we are not condemned in Christ "releases" the life of the empowering grace to transform us.

It's all about Christ! It's His fruit being manifested in and through us to people that need to know of His love and grace towards them too!

Acceptance grace which is not based on our behavior needs to be cemented in our hearts before empowering grace is able to be manifested.


What believers in a self-effort/self-performance D.I.Y. holiness/righteousness based mindset and the self-appointed "fruit inspectors" have a very hard time with is the "acceptance grace" part...this just drives them nuts...and I understand why..it is scandalous and it "conflicts" with our religious man-made traditions.

 

[PeterJens]

acceptance grace - which has nothing to do with our behavior

empowering grace - enables you to be who the Father sees you are in Christ

Trouble with the above is no repentance, confession or desire to walk in righteousness.
This is merely you are guilty but forgiven, so now you can be sinless.

So why would a sinner who is a slave to sin, be forgiven when they have no intention to
not repeat the same sin again, and because they are forgiven, why would they behave
as God desires when their hearts are in full rebellion against Him.

 

[Grace777x70]

The sky is blue....

The grace of God "teaches" us how to live godly in this present world.

Only the true message of the finished work of Christ brings the grace that is needed to live in this world by the spirit within us in our new creation in Christ.

The preaching of Christ brings the revelation of Him and what He has already done which brings God's divine influence on our hearts. This manifests in both "acceptance and empowering" to reflect the life of Christ in us so that others can experience His grace and love towards them in and through us.