the way of salvation
- Thread starter plaintalk
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
To Johnny_B, the wayof salvation. post #17
The fact that the letters of the NT are written to the saints does not preclude them addressing issues that include the world. It appears you are saying that 2 Peter 3: 9 is saying that God does not wish that 'any" of the saints to perish, but for "all" the saints to come to repentance. Presumably then, He does not have the same wish for the non-elect? IMO, He does not wish anyone, anywhere to perish or not come to repentance. I base that conclusion on the following:
(1) "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declare the Lord God. "Therefore, repent and live." (Ez. 18: 32)
(2) Therefore having over looked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent. (Acts 17: 30)
(3) For God so loved the world (not just the elect), that he gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believe in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3: 16)
(4) And He, when he comes shall convict the world (not just the elect) concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment. (John 16: 8)
(5) "I must certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right, is welcome to Him." (Acts 10: 24, 25)
(6) For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. (Titus 2: 11) God bless.
The fact that the letters of the NT are written to the saints does not preclude them addressing issues that include the world. It appears you are saying that 2 Peter 3: 9 is saying that God does not wish that 'any" of the saints to perish, but for "all" the saints to come to repentance. Presumably then, He does not have the same wish for the non-elect? IMO, He does not wish anyone, anywhere to perish or not come to repentance. I base that conclusion on the following:
(1) "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declare the Lord God. "Therefore, repent and live." (Ez. 18: 32)
(2) Therefore having over looked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent. (Acts 17: 30)
(3) For God so loved the world (not just the elect), that he gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believe in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3: 16)
(4) And He, when he comes shall convict the world (not just the elect) concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment. (John 16: 8)
(5) "I must certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right, is welcome to Him." (Acts 10: 24, 25)
(6) For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. (Titus 2: 11) God bless.
Johnny_B, thread- the way of salvation, post #19
Response: Again, I must respectfully disagree, with some of your comments. IMO being born of water and the Spirit, is Jesus' explanation to Nicodemus of what born of the Spirit means. Jesus was surprised that a leader of the Jews would not have a better understanding; this suggest that the Jews history and relationship with God should have provided some clue. From at least the consecration of Aaron and his sons the washing with water (Ex. 29: 4) has been a symbol of ritual cleansing for the Jews, and persisted for centuries. But it is Ezekiel the prophet, with who Nicodemus must have been familiar who combine the two elements--water and Spirit together. Ezekiel tells us that a time is coming in God will sprinkle clean water upon his people and they shall be cleansed from their filthiness and sin and then He would put His Spirit within them and they shall have a new heart and spirit and be mindful to observe his ordinances. (Ez. 36: 25- 27) But then Nicodemus had to be aware of John the Baptist who was preaching, "Repent. for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matt. 3: 2) along with "preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." (Mark 1: 4) John said he baptized with water but One was coming who would baptize them with the Holy Spirit and fire. (Matt. 3: 11) So Nicodemus could have had some idea of these things, but I am certainly not trying to fault Him.
IMO to be born of the Spirit is to be born of water and the Spirit, which strongly implies that one must be immersed in both water and the Spirit. God bless.
Response: Again, I must respectfully disagree, with some of your comments. IMO being born of water and the Spirit, is Jesus' explanation to Nicodemus of what born of the Spirit means. Jesus was surprised that a leader of the Jews would not have a better understanding; this suggest that the Jews history and relationship with God should have provided some clue. From at least the consecration of Aaron and his sons the washing with water (Ex. 29: 4) has been a symbol of ritual cleansing for the Jews, and persisted for centuries. But it is Ezekiel the prophet, with who Nicodemus must have been familiar who combine the two elements--water and Spirit together. Ezekiel tells us that a time is coming in God will sprinkle clean water upon his people and they shall be cleansed from their filthiness and sin and then He would put His Spirit within them and they shall have a new heart and spirit and be mindful to observe his ordinances. (Ez. 36: 25- 27) But then Nicodemus had to be aware of John the Baptist who was preaching, "Repent. for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matt. 3: 2) along with "preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." (Mark 1: 4) John said he baptized with water but One was coming who would baptize them with the Holy Spirit and fire. (Matt. 3: 11) So Nicodemus could have had some idea of these things, but I am certainly not trying to fault Him.
IMO to be born of the Spirit is to be born of water and the Spirit, which strongly implies that one must be immersed in both water and the Spirit. God bless.
I love 2 Peter 3:18, growing in His grace and knowledge, that is very important to our relationship to Him. You forgot the key verse of 2 Peter 1:4-11 and that is verse 3 that gives the reason for verses 4-11. Verse 3 "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,"
He gives us all things for salvation, because He called us to His glory and excellence by His divine power, here's what Ezekiel said about it 37:14 "I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it, declares the LORD.'"
This is John 3:3 being prophesied by the Holy Spirit, on how His Spirit will bring us to life or born again, to bring us into His grace so we can experience all of verses 4-11. Because it's the natural effect of His divine power in our lives and it helps in our knowledge of Christ, it also brings us to where Jesus said the world would know us. Brotherly love or as Jesus put it, that we love one another. If you don't have these you've forgot, that you were cleansed from your former sins.
We need to work with God in this walk with Him, it's not us, but His divine nature that works in us because of His good pleasure
Peter ties it all together in verse 12 "Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have." That they were established in these truths. So he's not telling them that they need to do or try an grasps these things, they already have them.
We need to work with God in this walk with Him, it's not us, but His divine nature that works in us because it's His good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
He gives us all things for salvation, because He called us to His glory and excellence by His divine power, here's what Ezekiel said about it 37:14 "I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it, declares the LORD.'"
This is John 3:3 being prophesied by the Holy Spirit, on how His Spirit will bring us to life or born again, to bring us into His grace so we can experience all of verses 4-11. Because it's the natural effect of His divine power in our lives and it helps in our knowledge of Christ, it also brings us to where Jesus said the world would know us. Brotherly love or as Jesus put it, that we love one another. If you don't have these you've forgot, that you were cleansed from your former sins.
We need to work with God in this walk with Him, it's not us, but His divine nature that works in us because of His good pleasure
Peter ties it all together in verse 12 "Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have." That they were established in these truths. So he's not telling them that they need to do or try an grasps these things, they already have them.
We need to work with God in this walk with Him, it's not us, but His divine nature that works in us because it's His good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
No human can repent or know to repent, unless they are born again John 3:3 "Jesus answered him,“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
I am not saying that the death of Jesus doesn't have the power to save all men, it does. But the real issue is if a man is not born again, he can not see a need to repent or the need to be saved.
On 2 Peter 3:9, verse 8 establishes the context of who Peter is talking to and about, "But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." The context doesn't have anything to do with the world, it's addressed to the beloved, the all are the any, the any are the you and the you is the beloved. Just like Ezekiel 18:31 it's addressed to the house of Israel, not the world, Peter is addressing the beloved.
John has established in chapter 1 how people believe and/or receive John 1:12-13 "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." And Jesus said they need to be born again so the can believe or see the need to believe or receive and it's by God's will not theirs. So we interpret John 3:16 by what the Spirit has said about believing and receiving and being born again.
The word world doesn't always mean the whole world, John 18:19-20 "The high priest then questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching. Jesus answered him, “I have spoken openly to the world. I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together. I have said nothing in secret."
The context would make the world here all of Israel or every where He went in Israel and taught in the open not hiding from anyone.
Jesus died for the sheep/Church, John 10:11, 15, 27-28 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep....just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep....My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." It is interesting that Jesus said, "they will never perish" I wonder if the Spirit was reminding Peter of this when he wrote verse 9 of chapter 3 in his second book.
Paul says. Ephesians 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her," It seem all the references to the benefits or application of salvation is always for the Church.
Jesus prays for the disciples and those that would believe through their word, John 17:9, "I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours....I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word," Jesus only prayed for the 11 and the Church to come through their word, He does say I am not praying for the world, why wouldn't He pray for the world, if He wanted the world to be saved? His pray is for the sheep only or the Church.
Looking at the greater context of the bible, man rebels against God and none seek Him. Romans 3:10-11 "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God." They must be born again to see the kingdom of God. Once they are born again it's their responsibility to work with God on their salvation, because it's God who's doing the work, for His pleasure by His will, not man's.
Do I understand all of this, no, but I have to submit to God's word, yes Jesus' death has the power to save all men and it's there for all men, Jesus will not turn any who come to Him away, Then those that come to Him come because the Father draws them. Once we come to understand the weight of our sin towards God, we realize that if it wasn't for God saving us, we would of never been saved, became saved or desired to be saved.
I would like to say, thanks for having this discussion with me, with respect and brotherly love. It's a real blessing.
I am not saying that the death of Jesus doesn't have the power to save all men, it does. But the real issue is if a man is not born again, he can not see a need to repent or the need to be saved.
On 2 Peter 3:9, verse 8 establishes the context of who Peter is talking to and about, "But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." The context doesn't have anything to do with the world, it's addressed to the beloved, the all are the any, the any are the you and the you is the beloved. Just like Ezekiel 18:31 it's addressed to the house of Israel, not the world, Peter is addressing the beloved.
John has established in chapter 1 how people believe and/or receive John 1:12-13 "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." And Jesus said they need to be born again so the can believe or see the need to believe or receive and it's by God's will not theirs. So we interpret John 3:16 by what the Spirit has said about believing and receiving and being born again.
The word world doesn't always mean the whole world, John 18:19-20 "The high priest then questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching. Jesus answered him, “I have spoken openly to the world. I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together. I have said nothing in secret."
The context would make the world here all of Israel or every where He went in Israel and taught in the open not hiding from anyone.
Jesus died for the sheep/Church, John 10:11, 15, 27-28 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep....just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep....My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." It is interesting that Jesus said, "they will never perish" I wonder if the Spirit was reminding Peter of this when he wrote verse 9 of chapter 3 in his second book.
Paul says. Ephesians 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her," It seem all the references to the benefits or application of salvation is always for the Church.
Jesus prays for the disciples and those that would believe through their word, John 17:9, "I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours....I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word," Jesus only prayed for the 11 and the Church to come through their word, He does say I am not praying for the world, why wouldn't He pray for the world, if He wanted the world to be saved? His pray is for the sheep only or the Church.
Looking at the greater context of the bible, man rebels against God and none seek Him. Romans 3:10-11 "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God." They must be born again to see the kingdom of God. Once they are born again it's their responsibility to work with God on their salvation, because it's God who's doing the work, for His pleasure by His will, not man's.
Do I understand all of this, no, but I have to submit to God's word, yes Jesus' death has the power to save all men and it's there for all men, Jesus will not turn any who come to Him away, Then those that come to Him come because the Father draws them. Once we come to understand the weight of our sin towards God, we realize that if it wasn't for God saving us, we would of never been saved, became saved or desired to be saved.
I would like to say, thanks for having this discussion with me, with respect and brotherly love. It's a real blessing.
I agree we do need to be born of water and Spirit, so we agree there. Verse 3:3 is saying we need to be born again or made alive by the Spirit, so that we can see the kingdom. Then we are born of water and Spirit, so we can enter the kingdom." Then verse 7-8 "Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." Paul carry this thought out as well. Ephesians 2:4-5 "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),"
John 17:17 "Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth."
Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God "
1 Peter 1:23 "since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;"
James 1:18 "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures."
Ephesians 5:26 "that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,"
The Spirit.
Ezekiel 36:26 ""Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh."
John 6:63 ""It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."
Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,"
Baptism does not cleanse the body, it's an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Christ. Peter 3:18, 21 "Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,....Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," We get baptized because of a good conscience toward God, the context is Christ's resurrection, it's the resurrection that saves us and it was the Ark that saved Noah and his family, not the flood waters. Romans 4:24 "who was delivered up of your trespasses and raised for our justification."
But, none of this matters until you've been born again and we always need to keep this in mind. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." There is nothing that we can point to that saved/saves us, because it's not of yourselves or the result of anything we've done, the reason, so no one can say they did something for their salvation.
I just realized something, we believe pretty much the samething, we don't agree what they are. What you call the way of salvation, I would call our walk with the Lord or the sanctification process. Where we disagree is what baptism is for, I think you believe it causes you to be born again, when I believe being born of water and Spirit is the result of being born again. Would you agree with that?
John 17:17 "Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth."
Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God "
1 Peter 1:23 "since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;"
James 1:18 "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures."
Ephesians 5:26 "that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,"
The Spirit.
Ezekiel 36:26 ""Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh."
John 6:63 ""It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."
Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,"
Baptism does not cleanse the body, it's an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Christ. Peter 3:18, 21 "Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,....Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," We get baptized because of a good conscience toward God, the context is Christ's resurrection, it's the resurrection that saves us and it was the Ark that saved Noah and his family, not the flood waters. Romans 4:24 "who was delivered up of your trespasses and raised for our justification."
But, none of this matters until you've been born again and we always need to keep this in mind. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." There is nothing that we can point to that saved/saves us, because it's not of yourselves or the result of anything we've done, the reason, so no one can say they did something for their salvation.
I just realized something, we believe pretty much the samething, we don't agree what they are. What you call the way of salvation, I would call our walk with the Lord or the sanctification process. Where we disagree is what baptism is for, I think you believe it causes you to be born again, when I believe being born of water and Spirit is the result of being born again. Would you agree with that?
The Gospel of Jesus the Christ
The gospel of Jesus the Christ is the good news.
The good news of grace and truth made known to this world through
the Holy Ghost by the name above all names Jesus the Christ the first born of God
the Son of the living God the son of man given birth by woman to which came from man.
For it is written in the Holy Bible...
the scriptures of truth inspired by God.
In the beginning was the Word
and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made that was made.
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
Which were born of God.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God.
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;
but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself,
and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Have you received the Word?
If you will receive the Word
God will give you power to become a son of God.
And if you become a son of God by that power
You will become born of God.
And if you become born of God
You will cease from doing sin.
If we say we have sin and say we are born of God
then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
When Christians tell you they still sin and are born of God...
they are liars. They are not born of God.
When preachers tell you
that even though you are born of God you will still sin....
they are liars. You are not born of God.
For it is written...
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God.
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;
but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself,
and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Satan never wants you to believe or know
that by grace through faith in Jesus Christ
you can become born of God and never
commit another sin.
The reason Christians do not want to believe they can
live without committing sin is because they love there sins
more than God.
That is what it is all about.
The love of sin vs the love of God.
The gospel of Jesus the Christ is the good news.
The good news of grace and truth made known to this world through
the Holy Ghost by the name above all names Jesus the Christ the first born of God
the Son of the living God the son of man given birth by woman to which came from man.
For it is written in the Holy Bible...
the scriptures of truth inspired by God.
In the beginning was the Word
and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made that was made.
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
Which were born of God.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God.
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;
but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself,
and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Have you received the Word?
If you will receive the Word
God will give you power to become a son of God.
And if you become a son of God by that power
You will become born of God.
And if you become born of God
You will cease from doing sin.
If we say we have sin and say we are born of God
then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
When Christians tell you they still sin and are born of God...
they are liars. They are not born of God.
When preachers tell you
that even though you are born of God you will still sin....
they are liars. You are not born of God.
For it is written...
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God.
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;
but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself,
and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Satan never wants you to believe or know
that by grace through faith in Jesus Christ
you can become born of God and never
commit another sin.
The reason Christians do not want to believe they can
live without committing sin is because they love there sins
more than God.
That is what it is all about.
The love of sin vs the love of God.
I find that people that think they can live without sinning, don't know what sin is and commit sin with their doctrine. Because they are saying God is a liar and they deceive themselves. 1 John 1:8-10, 3:4 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleans us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us......Whoever commits sin commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness."
to europanzz: thread- the way of salvation, post #27
the question in my mind is how is that done? Paul prayed and fasted for three days and apparently was not saved, at least he was still in his sin when Ananias came to him. Acts 22: 16 seems to indicate that we call on the name of the Lord when we are baptized in the name of Christ. God bless.
the question in my mind is how is that done? Paul prayed and fasted for three days and apparently was not saved, at least he was still in his sin when Ananias came to him. Acts 22: 16 seems to indicate that we call on the name of the Lord when we are baptized in the name of Christ. God bless.
Johnn_B:
I have enjoyed the discussion and comments and the opportunity to hear a little different perspective so that I can test my views with ideas that never occurred to me. Also appreciate not being categorized and misrepresented as some do. It has been amazing to me that some of the most ardent on this forum define coming to faith as an act of obedience, similar to the definition held by some of the more legalistic in the fellowship I once attended. These hold that obedience is the highest virtue a christian can possess. When asked about grace, they agree we are saved by grace in that God has revealed His will and now it is up to us to obey it. When asked if we are saved by faith, they will agree, it is an act of obedience. But the winner was this, when asked about love, our minister at that time said, "Love, love, love, I'm sick and tired of hearing about love."
IMO it all begins with the election which according to 1 Peter 1: 1, 2 is according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. To me this suggests that there is some quality, which God recognizes in man that does not exalt, but on the contrary diminishes. Again, IMO, this quality is the first requirement of discipleship, humility, those that will deny themselves. God loves a humble, contrite heart.
God sent the Holy Spirit to convict the world, not just the elect, of sin, righteousness and judgment through the word that He inspired, especially the gospel. Those that are convicted are drawn to Jesus by the truth, hope and love that is revealed in the gospel. God give grace to the humble but resists the proud. He opens the heart of those who deny themselves to respond in faith, hope and love. These three virtues now abide, working together to accomplish God's will. Faith is the introductory virtue but it is not the greatest, that distinction belongs to love. When we believe with all our heart and mind (faith mingled with love and hope) we are begotten by God and given the right to become children of God.
Our faith works with the works of faith God has given (calling on the name of the Lord, confessing His name before men, repentance in the name of Christ and baptism in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sin, to perfect or complete our faith.
As our bodies are washed with the pure water of baptism, we are sprinkled with the blood of Christ which cleanses from sin. we are also clothed with the attributes of Christ and given the gift of the Holy Spirit abundantly, immersing us with the Spirit. The Spirit anoints, us, seals us and indwells within us giving us life and daily renews us to transform us into the image of the Son.
As we come forth from these two elements, we are born again, born of water and the Spirit. If you have time, I would be interested in hearing your comments, if not, God bless.
I have enjoyed the discussion and comments and the opportunity to hear a little different perspective so that I can test my views with ideas that never occurred to me. Also appreciate not being categorized and misrepresented as some do. It has been amazing to me that some of the most ardent on this forum define coming to faith as an act of obedience, similar to the definition held by some of the more legalistic in the fellowship I once attended. These hold that obedience is the highest virtue a christian can possess. When asked about grace, they agree we are saved by grace in that God has revealed His will and now it is up to us to obey it. When asked if we are saved by faith, they will agree, it is an act of obedience. But the winner was this, when asked about love, our minister at that time said, "Love, love, love, I'm sick and tired of hearing about love."
IMO it all begins with the election which according to 1 Peter 1: 1, 2 is according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. To me this suggests that there is some quality, which God recognizes in man that does not exalt, but on the contrary diminishes. Again, IMO, this quality is the first requirement of discipleship, humility, those that will deny themselves. God loves a humble, contrite heart.
God sent the Holy Spirit to convict the world, not just the elect, of sin, righteousness and judgment through the word that He inspired, especially the gospel. Those that are convicted are drawn to Jesus by the truth, hope and love that is revealed in the gospel. God give grace to the humble but resists the proud. He opens the heart of those who deny themselves to respond in faith, hope and love. These three virtues now abide, working together to accomplish God's will. Faith is the introductory virtue but it is not the greatest, that distinction belongs to love. When we believe with all our heart and mind (faith mingled with love and hope) we are begotten by God and given the right to become children of God.
Our faith works with the works of faith God has given (calling on the name of the Lord, confessing His name before men, repentance in the name of Christ and baptism in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sin, to perfect or complete our faith.
As our bodies are washed with the pure water of baptism, we are sprinkled with the blood of Christ which cleanses from sin. we are also clothed with the attributes of Christ and given the gift of the Holy Spirit abundantly, immersing us with the Spirit. The Spirit anoints, us, seals us and indwells within us giving us life and daily renews us to transform us into the image of the Son.
As we come forth from these two elements, we are born again, born of water and the Spirit. If you have time, I would be interested in hearing your comments, if not, God bless.
mailmandan writes:
Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).
Response:
IMO this whole explanation is immaterial, this is a brazen attempt by mailmandan and commentators to spin this verse to conform to their agenda.
(1) Paul had been praying and fasting for three days prior to Ananias’ statement.
(2) Paul was still in sin as indicated by Ananias’ instruction to wash away your sins.
(3) The “having called” refers to the fact that he had just been baptized to wash away his sins.
(4) Paul’s baptism was an appeal to God to give him a clear conscience, forgiveness of sins, as He had promised. (1 Peter 3: 21)
(5) If his sins had previously been forgiven, why would he ask God to give him a good conscience by being baptized.
(6) To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen [SUP]2 [/SUP]according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. (1 Peter 1: 1,2) Paul, like all of us, are sprinkled with the blood of Christ when we obey by being baptized. Baptism is more than a symbol, it is the TIME when we are sprinkled with the blood of Christ.
(7) let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Heb. 10: 22) Baptism is our assurance of faith that our hearts will be sprinkled clean. As our bodies are washed with pure water (baptism), God sprinkles our heart clean with the blood of Christ.
(8) Redemption, the forgiveness of sin is in Christ (Eph. 1: 3, 7) and Paul was being baptized into Christ. (Rom. 6: 3)
(9) When he first believed, he was begotten by God and given the right to become a child of God. (John 1: 12, 13)
God bless.
Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).
Response:
IMO this whole explanation is immaterial, this is a brazen attempt by mailmandan and commentators to spin this verse to conform to their agenda.
(1) Paul had been praying and fasting for three days prior to Ananias’ statement.
(2) Paul was still in sin as indicated by Ananias’ instruction to wash away your sins.
(3) The “having called” refers to the fact that he had just been baptized to wash away his sins.
(4) Paul’s baptism was an appeal to God to give him a clear conscience, forgiveness of sins, as He had promised. (1 Peter 3: 21)
(5) If his sins had previously been forgiven, why would he ask God to give him a good conscience by being baptized.
(6) To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen [SUP]2 [/SUP]according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. (1 Peter 1: 1,2) Paul, like all of us, are sprinkled with the blood of Christ when we obey by being baptized. Baptism is more than a symbol, it is the TIME when we are sprinkled with the blood of Christ.
(7) let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Heb. 10: 22) Baptism is our assurance of faith that our hearts will be sprinkled clean. As our bodies are washed with pure water (baptism), God sprinkles our heart clean with the blood of Christ.
(8) Redemption, the forgiveness of sin is in Christ (Eph. 1: 3, 7) and Paul was being baptized into Christ. (Rom. 6: 3)
(9) When he first believed, he was begotten by God and given the right to become a child of God. (John 1: 12, 13)
God bless.
So you believe in a limited atonement. The God that does all things by design, left the death of His Son to the whim of sinful man that don't seek Him. Romans 3:10-18
“There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God.
"They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one.”
“Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit.
"Their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
He desires that all men be saved, but the Atonement does not have enough power to do that.
“There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God.
"They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one.”
“Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit.
"Their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
He desires that all men be saved, but the Atonement does not have enough power to do that.
Thread- the way of salvation
The reception of the Spirit by faith. Is the Spirit received by faith alone or are there other contributing factors?
The Spirit is received by faith as the new covenant has a grace- faith orientation rather than the law- works orientation of the old covenant. The question that each of us must answer is, “Do we receive the Spirit by faith alone or by faith working in conjunction with other factors?” Abraham is an example of the latter, his faith worked with his works of faith, so that his faith was perfected or completed and he was thereby justified. The next several paragraphs will hopefully present an answer to the question from the Scriptures us.
But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. (John 7: 39)
In this paragraph we see that our faith works with our works of faith, repentance and baptism, to perfect our faith so that the Holy Spirit can be received. This is the paradigm set up by the Lord for everyone, it is universal, for Jew and gentile, as many as God shall call. The Holy Spirit is given to those who by faith repent and are baptized in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sins.
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” (Acts 2: 38, 39)
This verse confirms the above, those who believe and obey, by repentance and baptism, receive the Holy Spirit. This is the plain and simple gospel. Was there an exception? Yes, Cornelius and his household were exceptions? Why? To show that the gentiles were acceptable to God. Was that exception promised to all people? No, Acts 2: 38, 39 is the promise that is made to all.
[SUP]“[/SUP]And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.” (Acts 5: 32)
What happens when we first receive a meaningful faith in God and our Lord? We don’t have to wonder or speculate, we are begotten by God and we are given the right to become children of God. Don’t be confused by the word “born.” Consult a commentary such as A. T. Robertson’s NT Word pictures or W. E. Vine, AN Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. The Greek word “gennao” in the passive voice means “to beget.” When we first receive Jesus by believing in His name, we are begotten by God.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1: 12, 13)
Some have attempted to use this verse to show that the Holy Spirit is received immediately upon believing notwithstanding that such an interpretation is counter to Acts 2: 38, 39, the universal paradigm. Our interpretations should include information that is available in other places. God has chosen to reveal His will as He wills, not necessarily in long detailed lists of factors in all places.
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, (Eph. 1: 13)
We are all saved by the grace of God in the same way; we all need the sprinkling of the blood of Christ to cleanse us from our sins. This blood is sprinkled upon those who faith obey. (1 Peter 1: 1,2) Even Cornelius, who had been baptized with the holy Spirit, had not been baptized into Christ and into His death until ordered to do so by the Apostle Peter.
Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” (Acts 11: 17)
The Holy Spirit was sent to convict the world, not just the elect, of sin, righteousness and judgment, even though the world cannot receive the Spirit for the stated reasons. This would appear to indicate that one does not have to receive the Spirit in order to respond to the gospel.
that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. (John 14: 17)
The Spirit is sent into the hearts of the children of God. One becomes a child of God through faithupon being baptized into Christ and being clothed with Christ. (Gal. 3: 26, 27)
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” (Gal. 4: 6)
These verses appear to say that before we can live with Christ, we must die with Him. This is accomplished when we are baptized in the name of Christ. (Rom. 6: 3-7)
Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, (Rom. 6: 8; 2 Tim. 2: 11)
The Spirit is not received through the Law.
This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? (Gal. 3: 2)
We receive the Spirit through faith; without faith it is impossible to be pleasing to God. But faith is not one dimensional, merely believing, hope and love are necessary for faith to be effective and faith is perfected or completed by obedience to works of faith God ha appointed.
God bless.
The reception of the Spirit by faith. Is the Spirit received by faith alone or are there other contributing factors?
The Spirit is received by faith as the new covenant has a grace- faith orientation rather than the law- works orientation of the old covenant. The question that each of us must answer is, “Do we receive the Spirit by faith alone or by faith working in conjunction with other factors?” Abraham is an example of the latter, his faith worked with his works of faith, so that his faith was perfected or completed and he was thereby justified. The next several paragraphs will hopefully present an answer to the question from the Scriptures us.
But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. (John 7: 39)
In this paragraph we see that our faith works with our works of faith, repentance and baptism, to perfect our faith so that the Holy Spirit can be received. This is the paradigm set up by the Lord for everyone, it is universal, for Jew and gentile, as many as God shall call. The Holy Spirit is given to those who by faith repent and are baptized in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sins.
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” (Acts 2: 38, 39)
This verse confirms the above, those who believe and obey, by repentance and baptism, receive the Holy Spirit. This is the plain and simple gospel. Was there an exception? Yes, Cornelius and his household were exceptions? Why? To show that the gentiles were acceptable to God. Was that exception promised to all people? No, Acts 2: 38, 39 is the promise that is made to all.
[SUP]“[/SUP]And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.” (Acts 5: 32)
What happens when we first receive a meaningful faith in God and our Lord? We don’t have to wonder or speculate, we are begotten by God and we are given the right to become children of God. Don’t be confused by the word “born.” Consult a commentary such as A. T. Robertson’s NT Word pictures or W. E. Vine, AN Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. The Greek word “gennao” in the passive voice means “to beget.” When we first receive Jesus by believing in His name, we are begotten by God.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1: 12, 13)
Some have attempted to use this verse to show that the Holy Spirit is received immediately upon believing notwithstanding that such an interpretation is counter to Acts 2: 38, 39, the universal paradigm. Our interpretations should include information that is available in other places. God has chosen to reveal His will as He wills, not necessarily in long detailed lists of factors in all places.
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, (Eph. 1: 13)
We are all saved by the grace of God in the same way; we all need the sprinkling of the blood of Christ to cleanse us from our sins. This blood is sprinkled upon those who faith obey. (1 Peter 1: 1,2) Even Cornelius, who had been baptized with the holy Spirit, had not been baptized into Christ and into His death until ordered to do so by the Apostle Peter.
Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” (Acts 11: 17)
The Holy Spirit was sent to convict the world, not just the elect, of sin, righteousness and judgment, even though the world cannot receive the Spirit for the stated reasons. This would appear to indicate that one does not have to receive the Spirit in order to respond to the gospel.
that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. (John 14: 17)
The Spirit is sent into the hearts of the children of God. One becomes a child of God through faithupon being baptized into Christ and being clothed with Christ. (Gal. 3: 26, 27)
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” (Gal. 4: 6)
These verses appear to say that before we can live with Christ, we must die with Him. This is accomplished when we are baptized in the name of Christ. (Rom. 6: 3-7)
Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, (Rom. 6: 8; 2 Tim. 2: 11)
The Spirit is not received through the Law.
This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? (Gal. 3: 2)
We receive the Spirit through faith; without faith it is impossible to be pleasing to God. But faith is not one dimensional, merely believing, hope and love are necessary for faith to be effective and faith is perfected or completed by obedience to works of faith God ha appointed.
God bless.
CLEANSED BY FAITH
“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” (Acts 10: 43) NASB
And He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. (Acts 15: 9) NASB
Is faith the cleansing agent? No, The blood of Christ is the agent that cleanses us from our sins. We have access to the blood of Christ through faith not through works of the Law or works of righteousness. (Heb. 9: 13,14; Rev 1: 5; 1 Peter 1: 18, 19)
Is there any Scripture that asserts that the forgiveness of sin is through faith alone? No, none to my knowledge. Of course there is one passage that states justification is not by faith alone. (James 2: 24)
Are there factors other than faith that contribute to the forgiveness of sin? In this section are several verses which list factors which are said to cleanse, purify, wash, blot out, forgive sin and redeem in addition to faith.
· And that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. (Luke 24: 47)
· Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2: 38)
· Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. (Acts 3: 19)
· Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name. (Acts 22: 16)
· knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. (Rom 6: 6, 7)
· But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. (Rom 6: 17, 18)
· Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor. 6: 11)
· In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace. (Eph. 1: 7) We are baptized into Christ.
· so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, (Eph. 5: 26)
· In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace. (Col. 1: 14) We are baptized into Christ
· let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Heb. 10: 22)
· Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. (1 Peter 1: 1, 2)
· Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart. (1 Peter 1: 22)
· And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. (1 John 3: 3)
· but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. (1 John 1: 7)
· I said to him, “My Lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7: 14)
What do we conclude about the claim that we are cleansed by faith at the first moment of faith? It appears to be an unfortunate, but all too common deception which is not supported by the Scriptures. We are cleansed by faith which works through love (Gal. 5: 6), by working with works of faith to perfect our faith (James 2: 22). God bless.
“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” (Acts 10: 43) NASB
And He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. (Acts 15: 9) NASB
Is faith the cleansing agent? No, The blood of Christ is the agent that cleanses us from our sins. We have access to the blood of Christ through faith not through works of the Law or works of righteousness. (Heb. 9: 13,14; Rev 1: 5; 1 Peter 1: 18, 19)
Is there any Scripture that asserts that the forgiveness of sin is through faith alone? No, none to my knowledge. Of course there is one passage that states justification is not by faith alone. (James 2: 24)
Are there factors other than faith that contribute to the forgiveness of sin? In this section are several verses which list factors which are said to cleanse, purify, wash, blot out, forgive sin and redeem in addition to faith.
· And that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. (Luke 24: 47)
· Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2: 38)
· Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. (Acts 3: 19)
· Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name. (Acts 22: 16)
· knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. (Rom 6: 6, 7)
· But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. (Rom 6: 17, 18)
· Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor. 6: 11)
· In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace. (Eph. 1: 7) We are baptized into Christ.
· so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, (Eph. 5: 26)
· In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace. (Col. 1: 14) We are baptized into Christ
· let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Heb. 10: 22)
· Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. (1 Peter 1: 1, 2)
· Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart. (1 Peter 1: 22)
· And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. (1 John 3: 3)
· but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. (1 John 1: 7)
· I said to him, “My Lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7: 14)
What do we conclude about the claim that we are cleansed by faith at the first moment of faith? It appears to be an unfortunate, but all too common deception which is not supported by the Scriptures. We are cleansed by faith which works through love (Gal. 5: 6), by working with works of faith to perfect our faith (James 2: 22). God bless.
To Johnny_B:
“So you believe in a limited atonement. The God that does all things by design, left the death of His Son to the whim of sinful man that don't seek Him. Romans 3:10-18
“There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God.
"They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one.”
“Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit.
"Their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
He desires that all men be saved, but the Atonement does not have enough power to do that.”
Response:
Well. Not quite.
I believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto salvation, and that it is capable and sufficient to accomplish His purposes in regard to the salvation of mankind to those that believe by the grace and gift of God.
Jesus instructed that this gospel was to be preached to all nations.
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to convict the world, not just the elect, of sin, righteousness and judgment. I am convinced that the Holy Spirit is able to accomplish this even though man is sinful, dead, separated from God. Most will resist the Spirit.
Those who are convicted by the Holy Spirit are drawn to Jesus, the Righteous One, the only One who by virtue of His sinless life could die for the sins of another.
Upon coming after Jesus, they learn that the first requirement of discipleship is to deny or humble themselves. God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. God opens the hearts of the humble to respond in faith, hope and love.
The second requirement is to take up your cross---to die to the old self with its passion and pride. This is accomplished through repentance and baptism into Christ and His death.
The third requirement is to follow Him by observing all things he has commanded.
This is my understanding of the way.
God bless.
“So you believe in a limited atonement. The God that does all things by design, left the death of His Son to the whim of sinful man that don't seek Him. Romans 3:10-18
“There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God.
"They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one.”
“Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit.
"Their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
He desires that all men be saved, but the Atonement does not have enough power to do that.”
Response:
Well. Not quite.
I believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto salvation, and that it is capable and sufficient to accomplish His purposes in regard to the salvation of mankind to those that believe by the grace and gift of God.
Jesus instructed that this gospel was to be preached to all nations.
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to convict the world, not just the elect, of sin, righteousness and judgment. I am convinced that the Holy Spirit is able to accomplish this even though man is sinful, dead, separated from God. Most will resist the Spirit.
Those who are convicted by the Holy Spirit are drawn to Jesus, the Righteous One, the only One who by virtue of His sinless life could die for the sins of another.
Upon coming after Jesus, they learn that the first requirement of discipleship is to deny or humble themselves. God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. God opens the hearts of the humble to respond in faith, hope and love.
The second requirement is to take up your cross---to die to the old self with its passion and pride. This is accomplished through repentance and baptism into Christ and His death.
The third requirement is to follow Him by observing all things he has commanded.
This is my understanding of the way.
God bless.