PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

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88

Senior Member
Nov 14, 2016
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#61
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I haven't even gotten that far in the discussion. I am only and specifically and exclusively...referring to the fact that PreTribbers counter-biblically believe the "gathering" which is depicted in Matthew 24...occurs on exactly the 1260th day. That is point-blank contradiction to what Jesus says..that "no one knows the day or hour".

That is ALL I am saying for now. This one error alone unravels the entire PreTrib doctrine.
****when the Rapture takes place (the Church has fulfilled her mission)---a set of events is set into motion (Daniel's 70th Week)----at mid Trib there will be the Abomination of Desolation----1260 days later Christ returns to destroy the Anti-Christ-----when you look at the Scriptures talking about Christ's coming it is evident there are 2 separate and different events-----when you read the Old Testament it is the same in regard the the 1st and 2nd Coming of Christ----it is hard at times to distinguish the two apart---they may be referred to in the same Scripture (Isaiah 7:14 & Isaiah 9:6-7)...
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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#62
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"



Morning tanakh,

Your continuing error, is that you are not taking into consideration the other aspects of end-time events, namely, the wrath of God. You claim that there is only "one second coming" and you are correct. Jesus will return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom and fulfill the prophecy of ruling from Jerusalem and sitting on the throne of David. That said, scripture is clear that this event will take place only after seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have taken place, which is the wrath of God.

The gathering of the church on the other hand, is a completely separate event from the Lord's return to end the age. Scripture states--and this is what you are not incorporating into your exegesis--is that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, which again, must take place prior to Jesus returning to the earth. God's coming wrath is not to be confused with the trials and tribulations that Jesus and the apostles said that believers would have. It will be an unprecedented time "the day of the Lord" which the OT prophets and the apostles prophesied of, bringing this age to an end.

You have also not taken into consideration that army riding on white horses who are following Christ out of heaven in Rev.19:14. In Rev.19:6-8, we see the bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean and then in Rev.19:14, we see this army mentioned as wearing the same clothing, demonstrating that the bride who previously received the bright clothing, is that army seen wearing that same clothing and riding on the white horses following Christ out of heaven. If they are following Christ out of heaven, then they would have already had to be in heaven.

For anyone who would try to assign this army on white horses as being angels, we have other scripture that identifies those who are returning with Christ, which according to Rev.17:14, will be His "called, chosen and faithful followers." That designation cannot be referring to angels, but to those who will have previously been resurrected and are returning with Christ to the earth to end the age. You are simply not performing a thorough exegesis, as you are not taking into consideration this other information. If you had, then you would be coming to the same conclusion that I arrived at.

If the church was to go through God's wrath, then it would be a dishonor to Jesus, because he experienced God's wrath for every believer and thereby satisfying it. 1 Thes.1:10 tells us that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath:

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

God did not appoint us to suffer wrath:

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Another on-going problem is that, people do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. These events of plagues will be like nothing that has ever taken place upon the earth. The result being the majority of the earth's population being decimated and all human government dismantled. If the church were here, it would be exposed to all of the same events of wrath that the wicked will be experiencing and that because it will affect the entire earth.

Another issue that you stop short of in your exegesis--and as I continue to point out--is one of God's clues in the book of Revelation, which that from Revelation 1 thru 3, only the word Ekklesia translated church is used within those chapters. You will not find the word Hagios transled as Saints anywhere in those first three chapters. Likewise, from Rev.4 onward and beginning at 5:8, the Holy Spirit abruptly stopped using the word Eklesia/church and all believers from that point on are referred to as Hagios/Saints. The read never sees the word Ekklesia/church again, until Rev.22:16.

It is not by coincidence that the Holy Spirit switched from Ekklesia to Hagios. And the Hagios that he is referring to are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. As I have said many times, the very fact that the elder is asking John "who are these in white robes and where did they come from" tells you that this group is not the church. John tells the elder that he doesn't know who they are and the elder tells him "These are those who have come out of the great tribulation." This group are those who will have come to Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time period of God's wrath.

With all due respect tanakh, you are not performing a thorough exegesis when it comes to end-time events and which is the also the same problem for many.

The gathering of the Church is when Christ descends from heaven bringing with him the spirits/souls of those who will have died in Christ from the on-set of the church right up to the resurrection and who will then be reunited with those resurrected bodies. Immediately following that, the living in Christ will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in air. At that time John 14:1-3 the promise of the Lord will be fulfilled when He takes the entire church back to the Father's house to those mansions/rooms/dwelling places that went to prepare for us, that where he is we may be also.

In keeping with the scriptures, this exegesis keeps the church from going through God's wrath and it also provides time for the bride/church to receive her fine linen in heaven, white and clean, at the wedding of the Lamb. And it also satisfies the scripture for the bride/church to be able to follow Christ out of heaven in Rev.19:11-21.

With all due respect, your exegesis is incomplete. Until you recognize these things, your interpretation will always be in error.
The rapture happens at the seventh trumpet. It coincides with Christs second coming. The wrath of God is not part of the Tribulation it comes immediately after its end. If you care to read and study Matthew 24 you will see plainly that Christ is speaking of the Great tribulation not the usual tribulations experienced by believers. I do not feel inclined to copy the whole chapter out when it can be found in any Bible but here is the passage where he expressly states that he is speaking about the great tribulation...

And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days. Pray that your flight will not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now no and never will be. And if those days had not been shortened no human being would be saved but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Matthew :19-22

For as lightening comes from the east and shines as far as the west so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the body is there the Eagles will gather together

Matthew 24: 27-28

In reference Johns vision of those who come out of the tribulation. There is no reference to a special set of ''Tribulation Saints'' anywhere in the Bible. They are Christians. Just because the word Church is not used does not prove they are not there. There are letters in the NT that do not use the word Church but no one suggests they were not sent to churches. If these apparently second class Christians are saved how are they? According to the dispensationalist view the Holy Spirit is supposed to have left with the raptured Church. Whose bride do these belong to?

The Mansions of the righteous are in Heaven which is where those in Christ go when they die. Otherwise if we die before the second coming where else do we go if not heaven? The rapture provides us with immortal bodies but our Spirits are eternal.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
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#63
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

[I think some of you folks haven't read very carefully through the Olivet Discourse. I'm not talking about a so-called "gathering of the church" right now. Nor am I talking about Rev. 7. Good grief - do you ever go far afield in a split second![/quote]

Hello MattTooFor,

First of all, it is because I have read very carefully and gone beyond far afield, comparing and cross-referencing scriptures inside and out, which is the reason why I am proclaiming this information to you.

OK so...the problem for PreTrib is that it claims this "gathering" (described here in the Olivet Discourse) comes on exactly the 1260th day of the second half of Daniel's 70th Week.
Once again, and as I said in my previous post, your error is not recognizing the difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

That said, Matt.24:29-31 is not regarding the gathering of the church, but is when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and to establish his millennial kingdom.

The gathering that takes place in Matt.24:30, is synonymous with the parable of the weeds and the wheat in Matt.13. When Jesus returns to the earth, those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up will be with, as will the angels. The angels will go throughout the earth and will "first" collect the weeds (one taken) and will bring them back to Armageddon where they will be killed by that double-edged sword, which is the word of God (Rev.19:21)

After that, the angels will collect the great tribulation saints and Israel (wheat) and who will have made it through the time of God's wrath, which is what is represented in Matt.24:30. That event is not the gathering of the church. The angels will be gathering living people in Matt.24:30. To be clear, Matt.24:30 is not the rapture.


When the Lord appears to gather the church, he will come like a thief in the night. And just like a thief, he will come unnoticed by the world and will remove the church. In opposition, when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, every eye will see him, even those who pierced him - Matt.24:30, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21

At the gathering of the church, we are leaving the earth and being taken back to the Father's house. At the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, the church is returning to the earth, following the Lord out of heaven - Rev.19:11-21

Your on-going error is not recognizing that these are two different events. The other problem that you have is that, prior to the Lord's return to the earth in Matt.24:29-31, is that before He returns, the wrath of God must be fulfilled via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Therefore, if you have the church being gathered at Matt.24:29-31, then you have them going through the entire wrath of God, which scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer. We can't be here for God's wrath.

By the way, the reference to "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" is referring to when that time of wrath begins, not when it ends. In 1 Thes.4:13-18, Paul gives a detailed account of the gathering of the church. Then continuing in 1 Thes.5:1 Paul refers back to his detailed account of the gathering of the church stating the following:

"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."

The "times and dates" that he mentions, would have to refer back to what he previously wrote, which is his detailed account of the gathering of the church and which he also refers to as "the day of the Lord." In fact, it is the gathering of the church which initiates the day of the Lord

The day of the Lord = The gathering of the church, which is followed by the wrath of God.

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates (of the event above) we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

After the gathering of the church, then the wrath part of the day of the Lord follows, as demonstrated below:

While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

The unbelievers will not escape, but the believers that make up the church will, as demonstrated in very next verse:

"But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief"

The words "But you, brothers" in verse 4 automatically infers the opposite of not escaping, i.e. But brothers you will escape. How will they escape? In the detailed account of what Paul just described in 1 Thes.4:13-18.

By the way, at the end of Paul's detailed account of the dead being raised and the living being changed, he then says, "Therefore comfort one another with these words." That is, comfort one another with the fact that you are going to be changed and caught up before God's wrath. Consequently, if the church was to be gathered in Matt.24:29-31, which would put them through the entire wrath of God, there would be no reason to comfort one another with the promise of the gathering and that because believers would also suffer through the entire wrath of God and there would be no comfort in that. Neither would it be a blessed hope if believers were to go through God's wrath.

Keep in mind that God's coming wrath is not the same as the trials and tribulations that Jesus said that all believers would have. Scripture states that God's wrath during that time is going to be upon the arrogant, the prideful, the exalted, the sexually immoral, liars, thieves and everyone who has rejected the salvation provided through the sacrifice of His Son. Believers within the church already have a repentant heart and will have been continuing in faith and longing for the Lord's appearing to gather them. Therefore, there would be absolutely no reason for the church to be on the earth during the time of God's wrath. And since God's wrath will come upon the whole world, with no where to hide, the church must be removed.

I am not against you, but I am contending for the truth that God has revealed to me through much study. I truly hope that you will look at every aspect of what I am proclaiming and perform a thorough exegesis.

What makes more sense to you, for the Lord to gather His church prior to his wrath or after? Would it be a blessed hope to be removed prior to God's wrath or after God's wrath?

Have a blessed evening!
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
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#64
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

You have the "great tribulation" mixed up with "tribulation" in which all partake of. Although not all of the same severity.

the GT are the last 3.5 years of the original 7 years of Tribulations of Daniel's prophecy. God's wrath is the whole 7 years.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
#65
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Once again, and as I said in my previous post, your error is not recognizing the difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.
You're pretty funny with this "your error" business. Oy vey. Anyway...

...your "error" (I jest) is in not recognizing what the specific topic of this thread is.

For the moment, I am not arguing which kind of "gathering" is going on in Matthew 24. For the purposes of my specific argument...it matters not whether this is a gathering of the so-called "church"...or a gathering of 'believing Jews' or a gathering of (what you refer to as) "tribulation saints" or a gathering of Star Trek fans.

ALL, repeat, all I am saying is...that PreTribbers place this gathering described in Matthew 24...at exactly the 1260th day of the second half of this 7-year period. And THAT is counter-biblical. Amazingly, it is in direct contradiction to the immediate context...in which Jesus clearly states NO ONE (except the Father) knows the "day or hour" of this "gathering" which Jesus has just described two verses earlier.

And that one error alone unravels all of PreTrib doctrine. That is ALL I am arguing for the moment. You're trying to drag this very simple discussion which concerns one single, solitary aspect of the "rapture" issue...off into the wild blue yonder. I don't blame you!
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
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#66
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

ALL, repeat, all I am saying is...that PreTribbers place this gathering described in Matthew 24...at exactly the 1260th day of the second half of this 7-year period. And THAT is counter-biblical. Amazingly, it is in direct contradiction to the immediate context...in which Jesus clearly states NO ONE (except the Father) knows the "day or hour" of this "gathering" which Jesus has just described two verses earlier.
Again, this is where you are not understanding. You're looking at "the day or the hour" as the exact day that Jesus returns, When it is referring to when the day of the Lord begins, which starts with the church being gathered with the wrath of God following immediately after.

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man."

The coming of the Son of man includes the entire period leading up to his return and is not just restricted to the actual day that Jesus returns to the earth.

Jesus likens that time period as the days of Noah. Not just the last day when Christ returns, but the entire period. Noah entering the ark represents the day when the church will be gathered (raptured). After that comes the flood, i.e. the entire period of the wrath of God. When the church is gathered (the day of the Lord), which "no one knows about that day or hour" then following that comes the flood, which represents the entire seven years of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Noah enters the ark = Church is gathered (rescued)

Flood = the entire seven years of God's wrath

Noah enters the ark, followed by the flood = The day of the Lord

Church being gathered, followed by the entire seven years of wrath = The day of the Lord

No one knows the day or the hour of when the church is gathered, which is followed by and initiates the wrath of God, represented by the flood. And they knew not what would happen to them until the flood/wrath came and took them all away.

Verses 30 and 31 are talking about the day that Christ returns. Where verses 36 thru 41 it is talking about the entire period of wrath leading up to his return, which is the day of the Lord and which is initiated by the gathering of the church. The day of the Lord encompasses both the gathering of the church, which takes place first, followed by the period of wrath.

Verses 40 and 41 deal with the exact day, where one will be taken and one will be left, which is referring to the day when Jesus returns to the earth and the angels first gather the weeds (one taken) where they are taken to the valley of Megiddo, where all of those kings, their generals and their armies will have been gathered and where they will be killed by the double-edged sword. Then all of those birds that the angel of Rev.19:17 will have gathered together, will eat their flesh.

As people are eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, the church is going to be gathered (the day Noah enters the ark) and they (the unbelievers) knew not what would happen to them (God's wrath which ensues after the church is gathered).

Ever since Jesus left, his return has always been imminent and which is what initiates the day of the Lord. About that day or hour (when Christ gathers the church) no one knows, then the flood will come (God's wrath) The reference to no one knowing the day or the hour, could not be referring to the day that Jesus returns because you have all kinds of signs, including the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and a fixed time period of two 3 1/2 year periods that make up that last seven years.

The day of the Lord = the gathering of the church, followed by the seven years of wrath

In the second letter, the Thessalonians wrote Paul because there were those among them who were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place. Their concern was regarding what Paul had taught them, that is, the resurrection would take place first, with the wrath of God immediately following. Therefore, since some were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, their concern was as to why they hadn't been caught up with those who had resurrected. They were concerned because if the resurrection had indeed taken place and they hadn't been caught up, then the next thing to happen would be the wrath of God and they would be caught in it.

My apologies for jumping all over the place, but I am trying to get you to understand the details of the whole time period. "The day and the hour that no man knows, not the angels nor the Son, but the Father only," is when Noah enters the ark and the door is shut, which is symbolic for the church being gathered, with the flood ensuing which is symbolic for the wrath of God which immediately follows.
 

JasonNosneh

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2015
110
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#67
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Live life like the rapture is false that way if you have to go through the tribulation you will be mentally prepared. Whether the rapture true or not better to be safe than sorry because the anti-Christ comes first (if rapture is false doctrine) and many will be deceived thinking he is the messiah. In the end the rapture is irrelevant and a waste of energy to continually be debated and argued about anyways.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
#68
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

You're looking at "the day or the hour" as the exact day that Jesus returns, When it is referring to when the day of the Lord begins, which starts with the church being gathered with the wrath of God following immediately after.
Whaaat?? I can't even tell what you're saying at this point. Uh, yes...I do see the "day or hour" referring to the "gathering". It's right there in the text...clear as a bell:

"After the tribulation of those days...the sign of the son of man will appear in the sky...and He will send forth His angels...to gather the elect...so when you see all these things, know that He is right at the door...but of that day and hour no one knows...but the Father...".


What's to figure out here? If I'm understanding your rather circuitous expressions, it sounds like you're literally trying to claim this "gathering" is actually the alleged PreTrib rapture...when in fact, the text has just got though explaining this gathering happens "after the tribulation". So are you proposing a post-trib rapture then??
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#69
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I think some of you folks haven't read very carefully through the Olivet Discourse. I'm not talking about a so-called "gathering of the church" right now. Nor am I talking about Rev. 7. Good grief - do you ever go far afield in a split second!

Let's look at the passage I am choosing to examine in this thread, shall we? Verse 29 of the Olivet Discourse (in Matthew 24), Jesus says "after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

Then in verse 30, He says they will see "the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory."

Then in verse 31, Jesus says the angels "will gather together His elect".

In verse 33, Jesus then says "when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door."

Finally, in verse 36 He then says "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

-----

OK so...the problem for PreTrib is that it claims this "gathering" (described here in the Olivet Discourse) comes on exactly the 1260th day of the second half of Daniel's 70th Week.

You can't do that...because now you have violated the "no one knows the day or hour" scripture.

This one error alone (among a hundred and a thousand of PreTrib's errors) unravels the entire PreTrib doctrine.
we need to figure out what he is talking about.

At the end of tribulation. No one will be taken, Those not in christ will be killed. the bodies of the dead will be so great we are told the birds will feast on the flesh for a year.

The ones in christ, Will be saved and enter the kingdom age of 1000 years.

So the day which no man knows is not the return at the end of tribulation. Because it does not fit.. there will not be two men in the field one taken, one left behind..

You did not unravel anything
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#70
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

As a new Christian I swallowed the Pre Trib package until I began to seriously study the Bible and talked to other Christians that had different views. I also expanded my reading and left the likes of Hal Lyndsay behind me.
Hal lindsey? Thats pretty low brother.

I have studied this for years. And post trib and amil (preterism) are the least supported by scripture. I could be wrong, and have not made up my mind what I really believe.. But if we go by scripture. one does not have to listen to hal linsey to see a possible pre-trib.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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#71
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Hal lindsey? Thats pretty low brother.

I have studied this for years. And post trib and amil (preterism) are the least supported by scripture. I could be wrong, and have not made up my mind what I really believe.. But if we go by scripture. one does not have to listen to hal linsey to see a possible pre-trib.
Jesus supported a post Trib rapture in Matthew 24: 29-31 thats good enough for me. Apart from that if the post Trib position is so difficult to support using scripture how come most of the Church supports it and has done for almost 2000 years. It was only until around 1830 that most people had even considered a Pre Trib Rapture when John Darby and later Cyrus Schofield spread the idea. Even today the most support it gets is in the US.
 
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popeye

Guest
#72
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Live life like the rapture is false that way if you have to go through the tribulation you will be mentally prepared. Whether the rapture true or not better to be safe than sorry because the anti-Christ comes first (if rapture is false doctrine) and many will be deceived thinking he is the messiah. In the end the rapture is irrelevant and a waste of energy to continually be debated and argued about anyways.
This reminds me of when the "allah thingy" came around a few years ago and Christians were trying to convince me that allah and God are one and the same.

You are basically saying that those who love Jesus and commune with him and obey his words to watch,wait and pray for the rapture to come pretrib are so stupid for being obedient,and that they are so far from Christ that they will take a satanic mark and worship a obviously phony imbecile pretending to be Christ that murders everyone refusing his mark.
 
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popeye

Guest
#73
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Jesus supported a post Trib rapture in Matthew 24: 29-31 thats good enough for me. Apart from that if the post Trib position is so difficult to support using scripture how come most of the Church supports it and has done for almost 2000 years. It was only until around 1830 that most people had even considered a Pre Trib Rapture when John Darby and later Cyrus Schofield spread the idea. Even today the most support it gets is in the US.
Reread it.

Angels gather,not Jesus
They are gathered from heaven,not earth
No dead are resurrected
Not a 1 thes 4 rapture.

Looks like Darby got you all stirred up over nothing....he was obviously right,
 
R

RomansToPhilemon

Guest
#74
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"


Immediately after the tribulation of those days
the Sun will be darkened and the Moon will not give its light and the Stars will fall from Heaven and the powers of the heavens will be be shaken then will appear the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and he will send out his Angels and gather the elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other

Matthew24:29-31 RSV

The rapture happens after the tribulation. Jesus couldn't have put it more clearly

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him
we beg you brethren not to be quickly shaken in mind or exited either by Spirit or word or by letter purporting to be from us to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed the son of perdition.....


Thessalonians 2:1-3

I wonder how many present Pre Tribbers will be deceived during the Tribulation?

I tell you in that night there will be two in one bed one will be taken and one left. There will be two women grinding together one will be taken and one left. And they said to him Where Lord? He said to them Where the body is the there the Eagles will be gathered together.

Luke 17:34-37 RSV

Then I saw an Angel standing in the Sun and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in mid heaven Come gather for the great supper of God to eat the flesh of Kings the flesh of horses and their riders and the flesh of all men both free and slave both small and great. And I saw the beast and the Kings of the Earth with their armies gathered to make war against him that sits upon the horse and against his army


Rev 19:17-19 RSV

Its not the righteous that are taken but the wicked





Matthew 24 isn't a passage talking about the body of Christ. When it says one will be taken, and another left. The people taken are taken away in Judgement. Read the whole passage. It talks about Noah getting on the boat and the rest of the world was TAKEN.

Matt 24:37-41

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the body of Christ. The body of Christ hasn't even been created yet much less revealed to Paul. Paul says the BoC is a mystery, hidden in God, a secret not made known unto the Sons of Men. Unsearchable, i.e. not found in other scriptures.

[video=youtube;3TGOzqmInP8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TGOzqmInP8[/video]
 
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RomansToPhilemon

Guest
#75
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Matthew 24 isn't a passage talking about the body of Christ. When it says one will be taken, and another left. The people taken are taken away in Judgement. Read the whole passage. It talks about Noah getting on the boat and the rest of the world was TAKEN.

Matt 24:37-41

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the body of Christ. The body of Christ hasn't even been created yet much less revealed to Paul. Paul says the BoC is a mystery, hidden in God, a secret not made known unto the Sons of Men. Unsearchable, i.e. not found in other scriptures.

[video=youtube;3TGOzqmInP8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TGOzqmInP8[/video]
I also forgot to add the parallel passage in Luke to back all this up even more.

Luke 17:26-27
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Who was destroyed? the people left on the ark? Or the people taken away by the flood. One shall be taken, the other left. The people left on the earth in those days will be going into the KINGDOM. If God destroys the people left on earth, who's going into the kingdom??? Exactly. Contrast that with the body of Christ, who never was looking for a kingdom on Earth. We are looking for things ABOVE and we will be ruling and reigning with Christ in the Heavens. Not Earth. The HEAVENS. Rightly dividing the word can clear up ALL confusion among believers today. And it's high time we put aside vain jangling and fables and study the word and believe exactly what it says; not what we want it to say or are tradition want's it to say.
 
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RomansToPhilemon

Guest
#76
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Jesus supported a post Trib rapture in Matthew 24: 29-31 thats good enough for me. Apart from that if the post Trib position is so difficult to support using scripture how come most of the Church supports it and has done for almost 2000 years. It was only until around 1830 that most people had even considered a Pre Trib Rapture when John Darby and later Cyrus Schofield spread the idea. Even today the most support it gets is in the US.
Haha, well this is factually false. And if you study it out you will see there was reference to a pre-tribe rapture as early as 130 ad. Besides all that, even if that weren't true (it is true, but even if it weren't), how many people believed God in the days of Noah? Only 8. So your idea that the more people who believe something, the more credibility it has. Or the more people that believe something, gives it more weight in truth. This is not how the bible defines it. It's faulty thinking and faulty logic.

http://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
#77
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

we need to figure out what he is talking about.
Who is "he"? Are you talking about me? And who is "we"? All the PreTribbers on this board...or something?

At the end of tribulation. No one will be taken
What in the world? The text is absolutely crystal clear:

"After the tribulation of those days...the sign of the son of man will appear in the sky...and He will send forth His angels...to gather the elect...so when you see all these things, know that He is right at the door...but of that day and hour no one knows...but the Father...".

There it is -- clear as a bell -- "after the tribulation" the angels will "gather the elect". What's not to understand?

And PreTribbers place this event on exactly the 1260th day. A point-blank contradiction to Scripture.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
#78
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Hello tanakh,

Jesus supported a post Trib rapture in Matthew 24: 29-31 that's good enough for me
Jesus did not support a post-Trib gathering of the church. It is because you have not discerned that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as being two separate events. By making them as being the same event, you would be putting the church through the entire wrath of God and that because Jesus does not return to the earth until after God's wrath has be fulfilled. You are not taking into consideration the exegesis of God's wrath in making your determination.

Your error is based on not recognizing that these are two separate events. Until you come to terms with this, then for you, the gathering of the church will always take place at the same time that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. And by doing so, you force the church through God's wrath. Here are the differences between the two events:

Gathering of the church:
believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thes.4:17).
Second coming: believers return with the Lord to the earth (Rev.19:14).

Gathering of the church: Occurs before the tribulation (1 Thes. 5:9; Rev. 3:10).
The second coming: Occurs after the great tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19).

Gathering of the church: Believers are removed from the earth as an act of deliveran (1 Thes. 4:13-17,5:9).
Second coming: includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matt: 24:40-41).

Gathering of the church: Takes place like a thief and in an instant (1 Cor.15:50-54).
Second coming: will be visible to all (Rev.1:7; Matt.24:29-30).

Gathering of the church: Is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 1 Cor.15:50-54).
Second coming: Can not occur until after many other end-times events take place (2 Thes.2:4; Matt.24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18).

Neither John Darby nor schofield have influenced my understanding to these two events, namely because I have never read anything by them and therefore did not adopt my belief from them. My understanding that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as being two separate events, comes from comparing and cross-referencing scripture. The Darby and Schofield thing is a well known apologetic, which are you, like so many others, are just repeating to refute that the gathering of the church takes place prior to the Lord's return to end the age.

Since the wrath of God must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, and the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath. Then the church cannot go through God's wrath to be gathered at the same time Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

The church cannot and will not cross that wrath barrier.
 
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Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
#79
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Uh...because it's in the Bible? LOL

Absolutely everything in the Bible is of absolute criticality and of utmost importance. It is interesting how some folks apparently visualize the Lord God sitting on His throne, head in his hands, moaning: "What was I thinking, oh what was I thinking...in making fully one fourth of the Bible into prophecy passages? What a 'goof' that was!"

That isn't happening.
thanks for the response.

but, I wasn't asking if it's important, but rather
how
it is important.


to put it another way, how will a sincere Christian who holds to pre trib
live differently if they change to post trib?
 
Feb 18, 2017
779
12
0
#80
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Whaaat?? I can't even tell what you're saying at this point. Uh, yes...I do see the "day or hour" referring to the "gathering". It's right there in the text...clear as a bell:

"After the tribulation of those days...the sign of the son of man will appear in the sky...and He will send forth His angels...to gather the elect...so when you see all these things, know that He is right at the door...but of that day and hour no one knows...but the Father...".


What's to figure out here? If I'm understanding your rather circuitous expressions, it sounds like you're literally trying to claim this "gathering" is actually the alleged PreTrib rapture...when in fact, the text has just got though explaining this gathering happens "after the tribulation". So are you proposing a post-trib rapture then??
This is His second coming, not the rapture. The gathering of the elect is the old testament saints. Davids physical body body still lays in the tomb waiting to be resurrected to glorification(this is why we see the two witnesses die in the GT. the old testament saints do not get resurrected bodies until this gathering). The church already has their resurrection bodies at this point(Coming back with Christ) the received theirs during the great tribulation after the pretrib catching up.