PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Your problem is...you go around simply 'announcing' your conclusions. It's quite silly. You have your announcements. I have a scripture that I quoted to you. My scripture which states the wrath of God does not begin until after the cosmic signs...trumps your 'announcements' -- LOL.
I have been studying end-time events for over 40 years and so I am just sharing the information that I am sure of. So please forgive me if I seem authoritative, but I'm not going to pretend that I don't know this information.

As I said, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments all make up God's wrath during that last seven years. Jesus is the One opening the seals and therefore, He is the One initiating God's wrath. Jesus is the One who tramples the wine-press of the wrath of God Almighty, i.e. He is the One carrying out God's wrath. It begins with the first seal which represents the antichrist. Everything that takes place during that last seven years is apart of God's wrath.

The last seven years of 70 seven year periods that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, is that time of God's vengeance prophesied in Isaiah 63 and which part Jesus left off when he was quoting Isaiah, when he said, "today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." He left off the second part of verse 2 and that because the day of God's vengeance hadn't happened and still hasn't happened.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

The next thing is...if PreTrib believes (as I knew all along, by the way) this "gathering" occurs at exactly the completion of the 1260th day...how do they explain the little problem that occurs just a couple of verses after Matthew 24:31...where it says:

"Uh, no..the gathering does NOT occur at the 1260th day...in fact, no one knows when this event will occur...because 'no one knows the day or the hour except the Father'".



It is because you are interpreting the " day or hour" as referring to the exact day that Jesus returns at the end of that 1260 days, when the "day and hour" it is referring to the entire period, including all of the signs that Jesus listed as taking place prior to the end of the age when he returns. So, the "no one knows the day or the hour" would be referring to when the whole process of that time period begins, which begins with the gathering of the church.

If you will notice, that claim of "no one knows the day or the hour" was in response to the disciples original question of "when will these things happen and what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age. Therefore the "no one knows the day or the hour" is including the beginning of that period and all of the signs leading up to the Lord's return to end the age and is not just referring to the exact day that he returns on as you are suggesting.

Also, I don't get my information from all of those men that you mentioned above. I get it from scripture and always have. You need to pay attention to the details, to the context of the entire scritpures and not make snap judgments about what a scripture is saying until you go over it with a fine tooth comb.

No one knows the day or the hour in which the day of the Lord will begin, which is initiated by the appearing of the Lord to gather the church.
 

PeterJames

Senior Member
Feb 13, 2017
111
12
18
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

No, you're right. There are some foretold events described in Matthew 24 that are probably outside of the 70th Week -- maybe some of the "famine, pestilence, earthquake" stuff. I guess am focusing of the abomination of desolation and forward. In other words, the second half of the 70th Week. Wait a minute -- are you another Pret trying to sneak in the side door, or something? Maybe when Jesus referred to "pestilence", that's what He was......oh, nevermind.
Hah, actually, no. I'm a pretribulationist and I believe that Jesus is referencing the pretribulation rapture in Matthew 24:32-25:13.

Pretribbers are scared to deal with this section because they believe it will lead to post-tribulattionalism,so they say there is no reference to the church in Matthew 24-25. It's all for Israel. And so forth.

The reason I believe, however, that Matthew 24:36-44, to just take a section of it, is the pre-tribulational rapture is for these reasons:

#1) The narrative doesn't fit the beginning half of Matthew 24. Jesus just talked about signs in the heaven, cosmic disturbances, stars falling, sun not giving light, diseases, false Christs, and persecution. Suddenly, Jesus says in verse 37 "But as the days Of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

In the days of Noah, there were no cosmic signs as to the Lord's return. Just a crazy man and a boat and the preaching of righteousness. It was not until the flood came that anyone took seriously God's impending judgment, but it was too late. So too, Matthew 24:36-44 is describing a day with similar factors.

#2) We are told in verse 38 that the people were marrying, given in marriage, eating, and drinking. REALLY? How could that be if, as we said in #1, they saw all these cosmic signs? They saw the whole earth shaken, persecution - and what is their response? To eat, drink, and be married - the common, everyday things of life? Is that even physically possible if there has been damage done to the earth? Would you go out and party as normal after horrible disasters like that occur? However ... it does make sense if this is truly like the days of Noah, where there are no signs (or sign-less event). In other words, something different is going on in that portion of Matthew 24.

#3) The analogy of God's flood and Noah's boat is perfect; people who boarded Noah's boat escaped the wrath, the rest were damned. It fits perfectly with v. 40 - one shall be taken, one shall be left.

#4) The event is described as "ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." Then the thief analogy is given. It is not just "suddenness" that is in view, but unannounced suddenness. No clue. Just like a deck of cards that are all marked with end time events, if the next event on God's calendar is the Rapture - we have no clue when God will turn over that first card. But if He turns it over at any other time within the deck, we can say - "Oh see, we know it's going to be in the next 7 years or less." That takes away the idea of no warning of His coming, or no signs.

This is verified for us in verse 42 - "Ye know not what hour your *Lord* doth come." This is not a message for unbelievers, this is not a message for unconverted sinners. For Jesus uses the term 'Lord' to describe the point of the Noah analogy. We must be ready, we don't know when 'our Lord' or 'your Lord' comes.

This is further bolstered in that Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5:1 we don't know the "chronos" or the "cairos" of the coming day of the Lord. That is, the 'times and the seasons' or general time period. So we are not even supposed to have a 'hint' or a 'glimpse' of when the Day of the Lord is coming ... which could only make sense if it begins simultaneous to or immediately after the Rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4.

If Matthew 24:36-42 is really stuck somewhere in the middle of the tribulation, then we would know. We could just say "Oh, see - there's the Rapture. So we know Day of the Lord is starting soon, at least 4 years or less" or whatever numbers you put to it. We would know a 'general' idea, a general chronos or cairos - but 1 Thess 5 told us we won't know.

The purpose of the "thief" analogy was not to just illustrate a 'sudden' appearance, but a 'sudden' appearance without warning. That makes little sense if Jesus just warned the disciples with a whole bunch of end time cosmological signs; Christians would be aware of it.

#5) Notice verse 36 simply says - of that day or hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, buy my Father only. It continues to reiterate that the event he was just to describe (those taken those left) would happen at a time we thought not. Again, if signs have already occurred - that statement is contradictory.

#6) Also, there are some who might say - hey, this section is for unbelievers. For the reasons stated above (use of the words 'your Lord' to unconverted sinners doesn't make sense, atmosphere is different, etc.) - I actually propose that the people of the earth know **exactly** what is happening to them. When we open the 6th seal of Revelation - we hear them asking the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the wrath of the Lamb to come. I don't see that statement as an announcement that wrath is beginning, but rather that wrath of God has been occurring and the unconverted ones on the earth don't want to experience it anymore - they'd rather be crushed to death than continue in the state they are in.

For these reasons, I believe that in response to the disciples questions about the end times - Jesus in Matthew 24:36-42 is not describing merely some sort of "other" end time gathering, but rather He is describing in detail the Pre-tribulational Rapture. While there are no signs the Rapture will occur, the Rapture itself is a sign and should awaken the unbelieving world to realize the tribulation is upon them and it should be the impetus of holy living for the wayward Christian - including myself.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

The muddled thinking is absolutely and utterly amazing. Let me state the question in such simple terms even my little daughter could understand:

Do you believe (as PreTrib does) that the "gathering" in Matthew 24 occurs at the end of the 1260 days?

If so, you have failed (as PreTrib does) to uphold the scriptures a mere two verses later, which stipulates "no one will know the day or hour" OF this "gathering"...but which PreTrib insists CAN be pinned down to the very day.
lol.. You do not understand what pre-trib believes, you have proven that. When you figure out come back, and maybe just maybe we can talk.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

What in THEE wide world are you talking about, friend?

This "gathering" is happening during the 2nd half of the 70th Week. And if we're to believe PreTrib proponents (your unfamiliarity with your own PreTrib doctrine notwithstanding)...this "gathering" is happening at the very end of the second half...at the end of 1260 days.

It doesn't matter if you're unfamiliar with PreTrib orthodoxy or not. That IS the PreTrib position: The emergence of the Lord in the skies described in the Matthew 24 passage and the subsequent "gathering" of the elect is (according to ALL major PreTrib proponents) happening at the dead-end of the 1260-day second half of the 70th Week of Daniel.

Thus, PreTrib does not uphold the scripture that says "no one knows the day or the hour" which, in turn, unravels the entirety of PreTrib doctrine.
lol.. why did you not say the end of 7 years.. It would have been more helpful.

Your still wrong. It still happens at the end of the 7 year. which means it pretty much can be known.. Unknown supports pre-trib. NOT mid or post trib.

next.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Such a dumb response. I wasn't setting up my comments in the form of an argument for my position just there. I was extending a courtesy to the man asking me for an explanation about something. That's kind of a cheap shot. Good grief. If you want to have an actual discussion on a specific point, let me know.

And by the way, no you will NOT be "prepaired" [sp]. Jesus stipulates in Matthew 25, with the Parable of the Ten Virgins, the only way to prepare is to prepare SPECIFICALLY in actual anticipation of encountering the abomination of desolation. You don't get to treat the Olivet Discourse teachings like some sort of 'fall back' position. It doesn't work that way.

Either you take the Lord at His word in the Olivet Discourse and prepare for great tribulation. Or you stick to the PreTrib "carried off to heaven on flowery beds of ease" pipe dream.
lol. I am prepaired for any tribulation. because my faith is in God not self.

It is my FAITH in God and HIS PROMISE to keep his word. and secure my eternal life based on his pledge of the hs that prepairs us.

We have no fear of tribulation. because it is a momentary light affliction. Eternal security is what prepairs us, Not some legalistic works based gospel of no hope..
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

10 years, 20 years, 50 years studying something does not make anyone right

The Pharisees studied their whole life and were wrong.....

College professors study their whole life and yet they still peddle monkey to man....

Being honest with verbiage and how it is biblically applied, the inspired words and context can make one with 6 months of study know more than someone who studies their whole life.......
 

88

Senior Member
Nov 14, 2016
3,517
77
48
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

10 years, 20 years, 50 years studying something does not make anyone right

The Pharisees studied their whole life and were wrong.....

College professors study their whole life and yet they still peddle monkey to man....

Being honest with verbiage and how it is biblically applied, the inspired words and context can make one with 6 months of study know more than someone who studies their whole life.......
****yea, and some of those monkey burritos are gross...
 
P

popeye

Guest
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Hah, actually, no. I'm a pretribulationist and I believe that Jesus is referencing the pretribulation rapture in Matthew 24:32-25:13.

Pretribbers are scared to deal with this section because they believe it will lead to post-tribulattionalism,so they say there is no reference to the church in Matthew 24-25. It's all for Israel. And so forth.

The reason I believe, however, that Matthew 24:36-44, to just take a section of it, is the pre-tribulational rapture is for these reasons:

#1) The narrative doesn't fit the beginning half of Matthew 24. Jesus just talked about signs in the heaven, cosmic disturbances, stars falling, sun not giving light, diseases, false Christs, and persecution. Suddenly, Jesus says in verse 37 "But as the days Of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

In the days of Noah, there were no cosmic signs as to the Lord's return. Just a crazy man and a boat and the preaching of righteousness. It was not until the flood came that anyone took seriously God's impending judgment, but it was too late. So too, Matthew 24:36-44 is describing a day with similar factors.

#2) We are told in verse 38 that the people were marrying, given in marriage, eating, and drinking. REALLY? How could that be if, as we said in #1, they saw all these cosmic signs? They saw the whole earth shaken, persecution - and what is their response? To eat, drink, and be married - the common, everyday things of life? Is that even physically possible if there has been damage done to the earth? Would you go out and party as normal after horrible disasters like that occur? However ... it does make sense if this is truly like the days of Noah, where there are no signs (or sign-less event). In other words, something different is going on in that portion of Matthew 24.

#3) The analogy of God's flood and Noah's boat is perfect; people who boarded Noah's boat escaped the wrath, the rest were damned. It fits perfectly with v. 40 - one shall be taken, one shall be left.

#4) The event is described as "ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." Then the thief analogy is given. It is not just "suddenness" that is in view, but unannounced suddenness. No clue. Just like a deck of cards that are all marked with end time events, if the next event on God's calendar is the Rapture - we have no clue when God will turn over that first card. But if He turns it over at any other time within the deck, we can say - "Oh see, we know it's going to be in the next 7 years or less." That takes away the idea of no warning of His coming, or no signs.

This is verified for us in verse 42 - "Ye know not what hour your *Lord* doth come." This is not a message for unbelievers, this is not a message for unconverted sinners. For Jesus uses the term 'Lord' to describe the point of the Noah analogy. We must be ready, we don't know when 'our Lord' or 'your Lord' comes.

This is further bolstered in that Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5:1 we don't know the "chronos" or the "cairos" of the coming day of the Lord. That is, the 'times and the seasons' or general time period. So we are not even supposed to have a 'hint' or a 'glimpse' of when the Day of the Lord is coming ... which could only make sense if it begins simultaneous to or immediately after the Rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4.

If Matthew 24:36-42 is really stuck somewhere in the middle of the tribulation, then we would know. We could just say "Oh, see - there's the Rapture. So we know Day of the Lord is starting soon, at least 4 years or less" or whatever numbers you put to it. We would know a 'general' idea, a general chronos or cairos - but 1 Thess 5 told us we won't know.

The purpose of the "thief" analogy was not to just illustrate a 'sudden' appearance, but a 'sudden' appearance without warning. That makes little sense if Jesus just warned the disciples with a whole bunch of end time cosmological signs; Christians would be aware of it.

#5) Notice verse 36 simply says - of that day or hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, buy my Father only. It continues to reiterate that the event he was just to describe (those taken those left) would happen at a time we thought not. Again, if signs have already occurred - that statement is contradictory.

#6) Also, there are some who might say - hey, this section is for unbelievers. For the reasons stated above (use of the words 'your Lord' to unconverted sinners doesn't make sense, atmosphere is different, etc.) - I actually propose that the people of the earth know **exactly** what is happening to them. When we open the 6th seal of Revelation - we hear them asking the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the wrath of the Lamb to come. I don't see that statement as an announcement that wrath is beginning, but rather that wrath of God has been occurring and the unconverted ones on the earth don't want to experience it anymore - they'd rather be crushed to death than continue in the state they are in.

For these reasons, I believe that in response to the disciples questions about the end times - Jesus in Matthew 24:36-42 is not describing merely some sort of "other" end time gathering, but rather He is describing in detail the Pre-tribulational Rapture. While there are no signs the Rapture will occur, the Rapture itself is a sign and should awaken the unbelieving world to realize the tribulation is upon them and it should be the impetus of holy living for the wayward Christian - including myself.
^^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^^
 
P

popeye

Guest
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Hah, actually, no. I'm a pretribulationist and I believe that Jesus is referencing the pretribulation rapture in Matthew 24:32-25:13.

Pretribbers are scared to deal with this section because they believe it will lead to post-tribulattionalism,so they say there is no reference to the church in Matthew 24-25. It's all for Israel. And so forth.

The reason I believe, however, that Matthew 24:36-44, to just take a section of it, is the pre-tribulational rapture is for these reasons:

#1) The narrative doesn't fit the beginning half of Matthew 24. Jesus just talked about signs in the heaven, cosmic disturbances, stars falling, sun not giving light, diseases, false Christs, and persecution. Suddenly, Jesus says in verse 37 "But as the days Of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

In the days of Noah, there were no cosmic signs as to the Lord's return. Just a crazy man and a boat and the preaching of righteousness. It was not until the flood came that anyone took seriously God's impending judgment, but it was too late. So too, Matthew 24:36-44 is describing a day with similar factors.

#2) We are told in verse 38 that the people were marrying, given in marriage, eating, and drinking. REALLY? How could that be if, as we said in #1, they saw all these cosmic signs? They saw the whole earth shaken, persecution - and what is their response? To eat, drink, and be married - the common, everyday things of life? Is that even physically possible if there has been damage done to the earth? Would you go out and party as normal after horrible disasters like that occur? However ... it does make sense if this is truly like the days of Noah, where there are no signs (or sign-less event). In other words, something different is going on in that portion of Matthew 24.

#3) The analogy of God's flood and Noah's boat is perfect; people who boarded Noah's boat escaped the wrath, the rest were damned. It fits perfectly with v. 40 - one shall be taken, one shall be left.

#4) The event is described as "ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." Then the thief analogy is given. It is not just "suddenness" that is in view, but unannounced suddenness. No clue. Just like a deck of cards that are all marked with end time events, if the next event on God's calendar is the Rapture - we have no clue when God will turn over that first card. But if He turns it over at any other time within the deck, we can say - "Oh see, we know it's going to be in the next 7 years or less." That takes away the idea of no warning of His coming, or no signs.

This is verified for us in verse 42 - "Ye know not what hour your *Lord* doth come." This is not a message for unbelievers, this is not a message for unconverted sinners. For Jesus uses the term 'Lord' to describe the point of the Noah analogy. We must be ready, we don't know when 'our Lord' or 'your Lord' comes.

This is further bolstered in that Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5:1 we don't know the "chronos" or the "cairos" of the coming day of the Lord. That is, the 'times and the seasons' or general time period. So we are not even supposed to have a 'hint' or a 'glimpse' of when the Day of the Lord is coming ... which could only make sense if it begins simultaneous to or immediately after the Rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4.

If Matthew 24:36-42 is really stuck somewhere in the middle of the tribulation, then we would know. We could just say "Oh, see - there's the Rapture. So we know Day of the Lord is starting soon, at least 4 years or less" or whatever numbers you put to it. We would know a 'general' idea, a general chronos or cairos - but 1 Thess 5 told us we won't know.

The purpose of the "thief" analogy was not to just illustrate a 'sudden' appearance, but a 'sudden' appearance without warning. That makes little sense if Jesus just warned the disciples with a whole bunch of end time cosmological signs; Christians would be aware of it.

#5) Notice verse 36 simply says - of that day or hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, buy my Father only. It continues to reiterate that the event he was just to describe (those taken those left) would happen at a time we thought not. Again, if signs have already occurred - that statement is contradictory.

#6) Also, there are some who might say - hey, this section is for unbelievers. For the reasons stated above (use of the words 'your Lord' to unconverted sinners doesn't make sense, atmosphere is different, etc.) - I actually propose that the people of the earth know **exactly** what is happening to them. When we open the 6th seal of Revelation - we hear them asking the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the wrath of the Lamb to come. I don't see that statement as an announcement that wrath is beginning, but rather that wrath of God has been occurring and the unconverted ones on the earth don't want to experience it anymore - they'd rather be crushed to death than continue in the state they are in.

For these reasons, I believe that in response to the disciples questions about the end times - Jesus in Matthew 24:36-42 is not describing merely some sort of "other" end time gathering, but rather He is describing in detail the Pre-tribulational Rapture. While there are no signs the Rapture will occur, the Rapture itself is a sign and should awaken the unbelieving world to realize the tribulation is upon them and it should be the impetus of holy living for the wayward Christian - including myself.
I agree,the setting with Noah is PREJUDGEMENT,As is Sodom and Gomorra,as well as the setting in the 10 virgin parable ,and 1 thes 4.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Well, all I can tell you is...there is a SPECIFIC stipulation in Matthew 25 which seems to indicate there is a requirement of specific preparation, specifically for the time of "darkness", i.e. the Great Tribulation.

My understanding of Jesus' comments in the Olivet Discourse is 1) we need to take Him at His word in His comments to believers and 2) it would therefore seem to be rather dangerous to treat Jesus' words to believers in the Olivet Discourse as some sort of "fall back" position.

Human nature being what it is, I know of very, very, very few PreTrib believers who are seriously preparing for the Great Tribulation. In fact, I know of none. Just the effort it takes to get one's family, one's children, one's spouse somewhat up and running and onboard with a post-trib / PreWrath mindset...this is NOT what American Christians want to think about.

We live a spiritually lazy existence...never more than five minutes from the nearest Starbucks...and with our Ken-and-Barbie happy-happy bubble lifestyle. And this PreTrib fantasy...that doesn't make any sense either way:

All those Christians in Sudan, Syria, Somalia, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, China, Soviet bloc nations (in earlier years), the Roman empire (on and on)...all shaking their heads as American Christian excitedly talk about avoiding tribulation via a PreTrib rapture.

PreTrib rapture is quickly becoming a moot issue, the closer we get to economic and political calamity right here in America. Even all the PreTrib big-wigs have nominally conceded over the years...that American Christians have no special exemption for severe persecution. But they only concede this nominally. Not in such a way to wake anyone up
I think Christians ought always to be vigilant, prepared, pressing on

1 PETER 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

PHILIPPIANS 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.




does someone with a post-trib / PreWrath mindset live differently than other vigilant and pushing forward Christians?

are you talking about having a bug-out location with lots of canned goods and ammunition?
 
W

willybob

Guest
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Jesus made a statement to the Jews concerning their future and their world "no man knoweth the day or hour" . You see God is long suffering, and desires that none should perish but that all might come to repentance. The Holy Spirit, with an out stretched hand, is calling men to repentance and obedience 24/7, John 16-8. God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked Ezek. 18. Therefore, God's patience is infinite, however He is not infinitely patient. God's judgement does come, just as Peter said in chapter 3. Then he asks them what kind of people ought we to be knowing this to be true, and warns them of falling away into the error of the wicked (vile sins of the flesh) a dog returning to his own vomit.

Through his infinite patience God gave Israel another 40 years to repent after the cross, some did, but most didn't, and the nation of Israel was destroyed never to be again. Those that believed fled Jerusalem to safety..What Jesus meant was that none knows the day or the hour when God's patience will have finally ended......Of course this working as a parallel prophecy today, in that no one knows the day or hour from generation to generation when once again, so the children of God are called into the wilderness, and to flee the Mystery Babylonian harlot church system that we be not partakers of her sins and plagues because His wrath is coming upon the Harlot and her children of disobedience..The Merchandising Harlot Church ("kirke" circus) says my children will suffer no ill, nor will I be a widow..........What saiest thou? Come out of her my people. Awake unto righteousness and sin not, for the Lord comes like a thief in the night when His patience has finally ended...
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
48
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"


Immediately after the tribulation of those days
the Sun will be darkened and the Moon will not give its light and the Stars will fall from Heaven and the powers of the heavens will be be shaken then will appear the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and he will send out his Angels and gather the elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other

Matthew24:29-31 RSV four winds of Heaven not earth....we are already there.

The rapture happens after the tribulation. Jesus couldn't have put it more clearly

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him
we beg you brethren not to be quickly shaken in mind or exited either by Spirit or word or by letter purporting to be from us to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed the son of perdition.....


Thessalonians 2:1-3

I wonder how many present Pre Tribbers will be deceived during the Tribulation?

I tell you in that night there will be two in one bed one will be taken and one left. There will be two women grinding together one will be taken and one left. And they said to him Where Lord? He said to them Where the body is the there the Eagles will be gathered together.

Luke 17:34-37 RSV Tankh,,,,I do not know how you interpret this but I interpret it as: Nightime, Then the grinding of food traditionally took place in the morning and 'you forgot' 36." Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Middle of the Day.....So we have here a 24 hour period that places the rapture all around the world in that twinkling of an eye.

Then I saw an Angel standing in the Sun and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in mid heaven Come gather for the great supper of God to eat the flesh of Kings the flesh of horses and their riders and the flesh of all men both free and slave both small and great. And I saw the beast and the Kings of the Earth with their armies gathered to make war against him that sits upon the horse and against his army


Rev 19:17-19 RSVArmageddon,, and his army are the saints in heaven. Notice,

Its not the righteous that are taken but the wicked






Tanakh.....do you believe in the immanency of the Rapture?


If so , then it could not be a post-trib rapture. WHY..... Before the tribulations are over, there are a whole host of events that are slated to happen. Thus the Rapture can not be imminent as Luke states.

If it is post, then Jesus takes his church to heaven has the Bema seat Judgements, Has a "sack lunch on the run" for the marriage supper then returns with his bride to defeat the armies of the world at Armageddon real quick...LOL

What about the prophecies that tell us his church will not go through God's Wrath. Oh, well they say that God's wrath is the last 3.5 years of the tribulations. NOT SO>.....

Look to Rev. 6 15-17...."And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

No, you're right. There are some foretold events described in Matthew 24 that are probably outside of the 70th Week -- maybe some of the "famine, pestilence, earthquake" stuff. I guess am focusing of the abomination of desolation and forward. In other words, the second half of the 70th Week. Wait a minute -- are you another Pret trying to sneak in the side door, or something? Maybe when Jesus referred to "pestilence", that's what He was......oh, nevermind.

Hate to break in on a conversation but here is where you are going wrong. Mat 24 is in the Future and Luke 21 is in the Past.

Read it again very carefully paying special attention to each word or phrase. While you are at it put up Luke 21 beside and compare.


In Matthew 24: 8-10....."8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.".....verse 9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." .......verse 10 "And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another."

The "Then" in this following verse 9........ "After the beginning of Sorrows" So we are looking at Future events beyond 70AD
simply because during that time Rome was in charge of the world, the Church was not at war with another Kingdom. Yes they had famines, pestilencesand earthquakes.......but how did they know if Iran had an earthquake or Sauda Arabia had a Famine... They did not,,,,This is reserved for future where Knowledge is greater. REM>


Those being: Beginning of Sorrows:
"And ye shall hear of "
wars and rumours of wars:
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


NOW look at Luke 21:9-11 tells us the same Sorrows as did Matthew 24:8

But Look to Luke 21:12......." But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake."

Ah here He is talking about events that are before the "Beginning of Sorrows"

Keep in mind that in 167BC, 72AD and the Future..... a 'desolation' happened or we are told will happen HOWEVER:

during this time(s) there are only two Abominations of Desolation that have or will take place.

That was during 167BC and Antiochus IV (Epiphanies) and Will be in the future when the ANTICHRIST declares himself to be GOD.


Any way,,you get the pattern here. Check it out,,,,, compare them...I think you will be surprised. Of course you could always stay your course and lend a deaf ear.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Luke 21 is in the Past.
Luke 21: 27 -- "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

The above hasn't happened yet. So...don't know what else to say.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Tanakh.....do you believe in the immanency of the Rapture?
Not sure which part of this conversation I'm barging into (looks like the discussion is over, actually! :) but I certainly don't believe in "imminency".

For one thing, Jesus prophesied to Peter that he would live to 'old age' at which time he would be martyred. Therefore, the entire first generation of the Christian era HAD NO "imminency".

And if the entire first generation had no "imminency"...that would obviously be the end of the line for "imminency".
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

does someone with a post-trib / PreWrath mindset live differently than other vigilant and pushing forward Christians?
It would be interesting if you were able to have a theoretical conversation with the Lord Himself regarding this subject:

Dan: "Lord, I notice You're providing a bunch of specific warnings and advisories about a specific upcoming set of events. Is the general vigilance which you require of believers in everyday life...is that vigilance inferior to the 'vigilance' required to live through the dark hours of the Great Tribulation?"

Comparing those two scenarios is a bit like comparing the "vigilance" of going to the trouble of thinking ahead and getting some good flight insurance...and comparing that kind of vigilance to the "vigilance" which kicks in when you realize you're in a airplane which is about to experience a crash. When one realizes a mishap is about to take place...I would argue there is a whole new level of intensity which kicks in.

It sounds like you're saying "well, if something bad happens, I'll be ready".

But the believer who takes the Olivet Discourse at simple face value and has (figuratively speaking) sat himself down next to Peter, James and John and the other believers who were present at the Olivet Discourse...someone like that (I want to include myself in that grouping) knows a crash landing is upcoming and, in fact, can see the mishap taking place before his eyes (in a kind of 'slow motion').

That's a whole different ballgame that just a generic "vigilance".

are you talking about having a bug-out location with lots of canned goods and ammunition?
In the Luke 21 version of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus proposes a prayer of protection to those who find themselves in this "great tribulation".

He says - "pray that you may have the strength to escape all that is about to happen". There might be a suggestion of physical preparation...to the extent that one can undertake such things. Of course, I live in California where almost everyone has 3, 6, 12 days of food and water set aside for earthquakes and such.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

10 years, 20 years, 50 years studying something does not make anyone right

The Pharisees studied their whole life and were wrong.....

College professors study their whole life and yet they still peddle monkey to man....

Being honest with verbiage and how it is biblically applied, the inspired words and context can make one with 6 months of study know more than someone who studies their whole life.......
I'm not sure if that is aimed at me and/or others here but...I completely agree. Anyone who simply assumes they "know" something, does not yet know it as they ought. ALL my beliefs are up for review at ANY time. That's how I see it.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

In the days of Noah, there were no cosmic signs as to the Lord's return. Just a crazy man and a boat and the preaching of righteousness. It was not until the flood came that anyone took seriously God's impending judgment, but it was too late. So too, Matthew 24:36-44 is describing a day with similar factors.
Well, wait a minute. By the time the "cosmic signs" appear, it's too late. This is happening literally mere moments before the gathering of the believers.

The cosmic signs are virtually the equivalent of the beginning downpour as Noah and his family retreat into the ark.

#2) We are told in verse 38 that the people were marrying, given in marriage, eating, and drinking. REALLY? How could that be if, as we said in #1, they saw all these cosmic signs?
When the cosmic signs appear and there is the sound of the trumpet and a great shout and the glorious appearance of the Lord in the skies...believe me, they will interrupt the World Series or whatever else is taking place on the earth in those moments!

But beyond that, I would argue you are absolutely, totally and completely running roughshod over a very simple text which has a very simple and crystal-clear structure:

The believers (the "disciples") ask Jesus what is going to happen in the 'end times'. He tells them there will be this horrific "Abomination of Desolation"...followed by the Great Tribulation"...which is then shut down by the glorious return of the King of Kings.

There is NO "pre-trib rapture" to be seen anywhere, in any way, shape or form.

"Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation...then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now...but immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light...and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds..."

Like I said, an incredibly simple, straightforward description. There is no "PreTrib" anywhere to be found!
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"


As I said, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments all make up God's wrath during that last seven years.
But it doesn't matter what you "said". God's Word "says" that the wrath of God does not begin until after the appearance of the great cosmic signs.

Joel 2:31 -- "The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

We have a "you said/God said" situation here (kind of like he said/she said). And I'm pretty sure we all know Who is going to win that argument.