Show me, in the bible, that we are the Bride of Christ (Challenge!).

Ahwatukee · Feb 21, 2017

As I said, Revelation should be interpreted literally unless a symbolic interpretation is obvious. The woman who rides the beast is symbolic and we are given the literal interpretation of the what the seven heads, the horns and the crowns represent. So, your example is of obvious symbolism, but that does not mean that everything in Revelation is symbolic.

The mark of the beast should be interpreted literally, as there is nothing in the context to suggest otherwise. The mark is to go into the hand or the forehead and without it no one will be able to buy or sell. In support of this being literal, we currently have people being implanted with RFID chips in Sweden and one of its uses is to make purchases. Click on the link below to see a BBC Newscast from Jan 2015 regarding people being implanted. This is the technology that will eventually evolve into that coming mark. Click on the link.

Swedish office staff offered implants to access facilities - BBC News

RickyZ · Feb 21, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

'Let me show you the Bride of Christ

And I saw the New Jerusalem, wearing Bridal attire'

...

I don't know, but when the wedding march starts to play and I see a girl walking down the aisle adorned as a bride, I have to think hey she's the bride.

But, let's just assume you're right. John clearly shows that there are those who live in the City, and those who live in nations outside the city. Since this is on the new earth, this is after the Great White Throne Judgment and the only people here are those who accepted the Christ. So what is it then that determines if you or I will live inside New Jerusalem or outside among the nations?

RickyZ · Feb 21, 2017

willybob said:

What if it was both?

Ahwatukee · Feb 21, 2017

RickyZ said:

As I pointed out earlier, you cannot give fine linen, white and clean to a building. You also have those who were referred to as the bride wearing that fine linen, white and clean following Christ out of heaven on white horses, with is the church who will have previously been gathered prior to God's wrath. Consider the two scriptures:

""Hallelujah!For our Lord God Almighty reigns!

Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For [the wedding of the Lamb] has come, and [his bride] has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Those riding on white horses are identified further:

"They (the beast and the ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

Those who wash their robes, would include all believers, for the church and the great tribulation saints are both referred to as washing their robes in the blood of the Lamb.

Believers in the church:
"Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white."

Great Tribulation Saints:
"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”14I answered, “Sir, you know.”And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

As far as who lives where or if there is anyone group who lives in the new Jerusalem and others live on the earth, there is just not enough information to make that determination. I suppose that we will all have access to the new Jerusalem as well as to the earth. The reference to those who are "outside the city, the dogs, those who practice magic arts, etc." I don't believe that it is saying that there will be people like that outside of the gates, but is a reference to them being in the lake of fire.

I have always wondered about why the saved would need the leaves from the tree of life for healing, especially when the resurrection takes place and we are transformed into those immortal and glorified bodies. I just don't think that there is enough information to understand every detail regarding that time. I have also wonder about the following:

"There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever."

If everyone whose name was not found in the book of life are in the lake of fire and all of the saved are in the new Jerusalem and on the new earth, then who will there be to reign over for ever and ever? In order to rule or reign, there would have to be a subservient class to reign over.

PeterJens · Feb 21, 2017

Jesus talking about a celebration, a wedding feast, a banquet.

The guests are the people called to enter heaven.
So this is the celebration were everyone called is becoming one with the King.

A wedding is the union between a man and a woman becoming one flesh.

So there is a sense of similarity and yet difference, and Jesus is using this in
terms of celebration and rejection.

birdie · Feb 21, 2017

You are completely correct willybob. Revelation is written in figurative language. This is the way God writes the Bible (Mark 4:34, Psalm 78:1-2). When we read about the new Jerusalem it is talking about people, not a physical city. It is spiritual language describing the people. Similarly, when we read about rivers it is talking about the gospel. And when we read about the tree of life it is Jesus. When we read about a sword coming out of Jesus' mouth, it doesn't mean a metal sword, but the word. And so forth.

Ahwatukee · Feb 21, 2017

birdie said:

Good morning birdie,

Forgive me, but you should stop teaching this, for it is not true. Not everything in Revelation is figurative language.

The new Jerusalem is a literal city:

"It was by faith that Abraham obeyed when God called him to leave home and go to another land that God would give him as his inheritance. He went without knowing where he was going. 9And even when he reached the land God promised him, he lived there by faith—for he was like a foreigner, living in tents. And so did Isaac and Jacob, who inherited the same promise. Abraham was confidently looking forward to a city with eternal foundations, a city designed and built by God.

The book of Revelation should be read in the literal sense unless symbolism is obvious. If the literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense.

That said, the information given in chapters 21 & 22 are extensive. We have the measurements for the thickness, height, width and length of the walls. That the city has twelve gates on each side made from a single pearl, with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel written on each gate. And we have the description of the foundations made from different precious stones with the names of the twelve apostles on those foundations. And these details are just off the top of my head. The city is also mentioned within the warning of those who take away from the words of the book of Revelation:

" And if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person’s share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book."

It is this error of assuming that the book of Revelation is completely figurative which is the reason for so many false teaching on it. The new Jerusalem is real city, not figurative.

BeyondET · Feb 21, 2017

BenFTW said:

IMO anything to do with Christ and the church is of the believer(church) of Jesus.

this would be interesting to ponder, do believers of Jesus belong to him "like a sheep" as a guest or a family member.
I say that because Im thinking Jesus as the bridegroom though I could be incorrect in that thinking.

John 3:29
The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete.

Bladerunner · Feb 21, 2017

BenFTW said:

All I see here are figures of speech (similes, metaphors, personification, etc). Again, it is not plainly stated that the Church is the Bride of Christ, but in many instances here we see we are guests of the wedding and basically, for men to love their wives devotedly as Christ did the Church. The example of Christ's sacrifice and love for the church is simply a comparison, not a statement that defines the Church as His Bride. That is being read in, ignoring the intent of the verse to make a doctrine that, as far as I know, has no grounding.

I understand that God was married to Israel for example. God uses such symbolism, and figures of speech to make a point. However, I'm not seeing the Body of Christ as referenced to as His Bride, let alone for them to actually have a marriage to Him at some point (Him being the bridegroom).

The clearest scripture we have in reference to a bride and the Lamb's wife is in Revelations, speaking of Jerusalem. So, having such a clear example, how can we use other vague passages and interpretations (that are biased through tradition) to override this one scripture that is plain?

I don't know, I am open, but like I said before. A case needs to be made. So far, again, you used verses that are obviously comparisons meant to express devotion. A simile of comparison. Not a verse that defines His Church as His Bride.

PS: In the case of the virgins parable, are you insinuating polygamy? That would be the case then... if it represents the Church. However, some interpretations see the virgins as wedding guests, or like bridesmaids.

It is apparent that with all the responses to your original post, you are not going to change your mind. SAD!

BeyondET · Feb 21, 2017

Humorous verse considering the topic.

Ephesians 5:32
This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

newlightseven · Feb 21, 2017

Why can't all the verses in the bible be true? Could it be that as the church we are considered members and part of the new Jerusalem body? This would make the most sense to me.

PeterJens · Feb 21, 2017

newlightseven said:

According to Paul we are all grafted into the olive tree of Gods people.

After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
Rom 11:24

stonesoffire · Feb 21, 2017

I asked the Lord whether we were the Bride or not. Then had a dream that I have no doubt was my answer. In the dream I was outside the banquet hall waiting to be escorted in to the wedding. I was the mother of the groom.

Theres much more to the dream but I received my answer in the position I had. The mother of the groom would be the Sons who bring forth the life of Jesus. Sonship.

Security ushered me into the wedding by the way. Secure in Him.

I believe the Bride to be the 144,000 out of Israel.

BenFTW · Feb 21, 2017

Bladerunner said:

There are many responses but none have made a sufficient case. The verse people use to make the argument has nothing to do with "the Bride of Christ" (which beyond Revelations you do not find this title, only in reference to the Lamb's wife, and bride being Jerusalem).

I'm sorry but using a verse that is a simile to encourage men to love their wives in devotion as Christ loved the church isn't a great foundation to grant the title of Bride of Christ to the Body of Christ. I understand the figurative language being used, however. The comparison is good, but why have people based upon a simile taken the title of Bride when the verse doesn't say that? It simply encourages men to love their wives as Christ loved the church, giving His life for it.

I am completely open to the truth, it is not close minded here. I just haven't found sufficient verses that make it clear that the Body of Christ is His Bride. The verses people often use are a stretch, adding more into the text than was intended. A simple comparison into a whole doctrine.

So far I've only seen verses that clearly show Jerusalem to be the bride, the Lamb's wife. I am not sure how accurate and convenient the response was that God' refers to people as a city, so He addresses them as the name of their city such as when Jesus wept for Jerusalem. That one gave me some food for thought.

dcontroversal · Feb 21, 2017

I would say two things which will be rejected by most....

a. The BRIDE is identified as NEW JERUSALEM COMING DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN PREPARED AS A BRIDE FOR HER HUSBAND
b. A study of the parables will revel the GENTILE believers as GUESTS at the wedding....

OH..KATIE bar the door and get the popcorn ready

valiant · Feb 21, 2017

BenFTW said:

In this case the Bride is truly us:

Rom 7:1
Or are ye ignorant, brethren (for I speak to men that know the law), how that the law hath dominion over a man for so long time as he liveth?
Rom 7:2
For the woman that hath a husband is bound by law to the husband while he liveth; but if the husband die, she is discharged from the law of the husband.
Rom 7:3
So then if, while the husband liveth, she be joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if the husband die, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she be joined to another man.
Rom 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God.

BeyondET · Feb 21, 2017

BenFTW said:

There are many responses but none have made a sufficient case. The verse people use to make the argument has nothing to do with "the Bride of Christ" (which beyond Revelations you do not find this title, only in reference to the Lamb's wife, and bride being Jerusalem).

I'm sorry but using a verse that is a simile to encourage men to love their wives in devotion as Christ loved the church isn't a great foundation to grant the title of Bride of Christ to the Body of Christ. I understand the figurative language being used, however. The comparison is good, but why have people based upon a simile taken the title of Bride when the verse doesn't say that? It simply encourages men to love their wives as Christ loved the church, giving His life for it.

I am completely open to the truth, it is not close minded here. I just haven't found sufficient verses that make it clear that the Body of Christ is His Bride. The verses people often use are a stretch, adding more into the text than was intended. A simple comparison into a whole doctrine.

So far I've only seen verses that clearly show Jerusalem to be the bride, the Lamb's wife. I am not sure how accurate and convenient the response was that God' refers to people as a city, so He addresses them as the name of their city such as when Jesus wept for Jerusalem. That one gave me some food for thought.

Looks as if you don't want to see it that way, in John 3:29 isn't talking about Jerusalem or a wife but the bridegroom and it's clear you don't think the bridegroom is believer/Jesus. Bride-groom. What is a groom one who tends to his sheep and takes care of them.

In the OT God is mentioned as the husband.

RickyZ · Feb 21, 2017

Consider the temple and the tabernacle, when God lived among the Jews. There was the entirety of the Jewish population, but only a select group of them were allowed inside the temple/tabernacle. The greater part of the population stayed outside, but brought their sacrifices to it.

So now we (will) have New Jerusalem, where God will live on the New Earth among us. The descriptors very clearly show that only a select group will live in the city with God, while the greater population lives outside of it and brings their commerce to it.

So, the question again arises - Since 100% of these people are saved/churched, what determines if you are one of the select who lives in the city, or one of the greater population that lives outside it?

Locutus · Feb 21, 2017

BenFTW said:

He's certainly not "marrying" a city.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

1 Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

These are all Hebraic symbolic figures.

Ahwatukee · Feb 21, 2017

BenFTW said:

Good day BenFTW,

Here is the scripture:

"I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having been prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband"

The new Jerusalem is not being referred to as "the bride" but is a comparison "prepared as a bride." In other words, the city is being compared to a bride beautifully dress for her husband, not that she is the bride. This comparison is given because the city is made of pure gold, each foundation is made of a different gem and is garnished with precious gems and has twelve gates each made from a single pearl. I think what happens is that people see the word "Bride" and they immediately apply it to being the bride of Christ. It's just an analogy in reference of the city's appearance "prepared [as a bride]" not "prepared [as the] bride."

Paul writing to the church in Corinth:

"I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him."

The church is the bride of Christ, not the new Jerusalem

Show me, in the bible, that we are the Bride of Christ (Challenge!).

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