Sinners?

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NotmebutHim

Senior Member
May 17, 2015
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#1
No, this is not going to be a "sinless perfection" thread, where I claim to no longer sin and the rest of you are on your own, LOL!

Rather, I'm wondering whether it's correct to call believers "sinners". Let's look at two definitions of the word:

Sinner (1): one who sins
Sinner (2): one who is unsaved, makes a habit of sinning and who lives a sinful lifestyle.

It is true that even those of us who are saved by Christ still sin. It's just that we gradually sin less and less and remove sinful habits from our lives through His power (although we will never get to a point in this life where we stop sinning completely).

Now some say that believers should not be referred to as "sinners", while others say that it is acceptable because technically we still sin. I think it depends on which of the above definitions one uses.

So what do you guys think? Is it OK to call believers "sinners"? There are no wrong answers.

:D
 
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Sully

Guest
#2
This is weird, I was just keying on Galatians 2 and literally had the following copied in clipboard: The pronoun "I" in v.18 stood out for me for the first time.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#3
After the cross believers in the epistles are called "saints" 62x times. A sinner is an identity. A saint is our identity in Christ.

We are saints that sometimes sin and in the case of some of the Corinthians which lived in divisions and strife, going to the temple prostitutes for sex, taking each other to court. Paul calls these people fleshly or carnal but yet he still calls them saints. Paul says that they are babies in Christ.

Paul's answer for them was to tell them who they were in Christ and in one case have some church discipline so that others would not be defiled by their outward behavior.

Paul never said that they were "sinners" again and not born-again and now going to hell as some try to pawn off on us.

1 Corinthians 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

have been sanctified
= having been made holy or set apart because we are in Christ. This is in the Greek perfect passive which means it's a one time event that it's effects are completed and continuously happening in the present. Passive means that it was something that was done to you. You did not do it yourself.
 
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BeyondET

Guest
#4
anybody can cast stones.
 
Aug 16, 2016
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#5
All fall short of the glory of god. As it was stated in the scriptures in Luke 18:19 - "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. Including in 2 Chronicles 7:14 - if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. So even Gods people who he acknowledged as his people have their faults. I personally wouldn't call them sinners. I would lean towards your number 2 example as a sinner.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#6
"Sinner" is an identity, just as "saint" is. The Christians identity is that of a saint, not a sinner. When a sinner sins, they are acting consistent with their nature. When a saint sins, they are acting contrary to their nature.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#7
Paul....Christ Jesus came to save sinners of whom I am chief<---note not in the past tense but present tense......

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#8
Paul....Christ Jesus came to save sinners of whom I am chief<---note not in the past tense but present tense......

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
And He did save Paul. Saint Paul the Apostle no longer Paul the sinner.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#10
Yep....and Paul wrote that AFTER he was saved and it is in the present context.....
Paul considered himself the chief of all sinners who Christ came to save. And yet Christ did save him. You don't think Paul remained the chief of all sinners for the rest of his life do you?
 
Nov 19, 2016
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#11
And He did save Paul. Saint Paul the Apostle no longer Paul the sinner.
I might be sounding petty,but I have got nothing better to do,but it is Paul the apostle no longer Saul the sinner,for his name was changed to represent his new identity,and I do not mean any harm,for you did not do anything wrong,but I am a petty person,but kidding,only making conservation,and saying that he is Saul when he was a sinner,and Paul when he is saved,like Jacob's name was changed to Israel,and Abram's name changed to Abraham,and Lucifer's name changed to Satan,to identify with the before and after of their character.
 
L

LClark

Guest
#12
"Simul iustus et peccator" - "At the same time righteous and a
sinner
"...famous words from Luther. We often have a hard time dealing with paradoxes, like us being both saint and sinner (not 'either/or').
What Does "Simul Justus et Peccator" Mean?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#13
Paul considered himself the chief of all sinners who Christ came to save. And yet Christ did save him. You don't think Paul remained the chief of all sinners for the rest of his life do you?
I think the present context cannot be denied and Paul speaks a lot about this in his letters....such as...

1. The things I say I am going to do I do not do
2. The things I say I am not going to do these things I do
3. He calls himself wretched
4. He speaks to the thorn in his flesh that keeps him humbled
5. He said not to think of yourself more highly that you should

AT the end of the day...we cannot chunk the present tense of his statement regardless of ur preconceived ideas and or belief.....

John also write in the present TENSE concerning sin in a believer's life.....If we say we have NO sin we are deceived and the truth is not in us.....
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#15
I think the present context cannot be denied and Paul speaks a lot about this in his letters....such as...

1. The things I say I am going to do I do not do
2. The things I say I am not going to do these things I do
3. He calls himself wretched
4. He speaks to the thorn in his flesh that keeps him humbled
5. He said not to think of yourself more highly that you should

AT the end of the day...we cannot chunk the present tense of his statement regardless of ur preconceived ideas and or belief.....
At the end of the day what we cannot do is throw out the overwhelming testimony of scripture to the contrary.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#16
Some see black, some see white, some see gray, some see something akin to the yin/yang symbol, where black and white are both present, but do not intermix.

Personally, I am aware of having done things since being saved which, had I done them before coming to Christ, would be called 'sin'. I'm not going to pretend to understand fully what Paul was getting at in his 'Oh wretched man that I am' passage. Rather, I recognize that I am not yet complete nor perfected, because I still live in the flesh.

For myself and others, I would be inclined not to focus so much on the all-or-nothing identity of either "saint" or "sinner" but to focus on any actions of sin, and deal with those specifically, as being inconsistent with a confession of Christ as Saviour.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#17
At the end of the day what we cannot do is throw out the overwhelming testimony of scripture to the contrary.
Whatever...Paul was a sinner and a saint.....or better yet a saved sinner.......my points are valid....and my post above stands......the present tense of his statement cannot be chunked or overlooked....reject it if you want....could care less!
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,645
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#18
No, this is not going to be a "sinless perfection" thread, where I claim to no longer sin and the rest of you are on your own, LOL!

Rather, I'm wondering whether it's correct to call believers "sinners". Let's look at two definitions of the word:

Sinner (1): one who sins
Sinner (2): one who is unsaved, makes a habit of sinning and who lives a sinful lifestyle.

It is true that even those of us who are saved by Christ still sin. It's just that we gradually sin less and less and remove sinful habits from our lives through His power (although we will never get to a point in this life where we stop sinning completely).

Now some say that believers should not be referred to as "sinners", while others say that it is acceptable because technically we still sin. I think it depends on which of the above definitions one uses.

So what do you guys think? Is it OK to call believers "sinners"? There are no wrong answers.

:D
we hope it does not turn into a sinless perfectionism, law vs. works. vs grace thread. but, based on past history........
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,177
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#19
as long as we are in the flesh we will still sin and we call ourselves sinners but this is not what he calls us, he calls us kings and queens he calls us holy and redeemed he sees a clean and spotless child the last thing he sees us as is sinners.
since we sin and are human and will always fall short no matter how hard we try in that sense yes we are sinners but if we were to look through God's eyes the last thing we would see is sinners.

How we view ourselves in him is more important than we realize, how can we live a holy and righteous life if we only see a sinner when we look at ourselves? how can we expect people to believe us when we tell them they are made clean by the blood of the lamb and that they are no longer bound by the chains of a sinner if we ourselves do not believe this about ourselves?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
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#20
After the cross believers in the epistles are called "saints" 62x times. A sinner is an identity. A saint is our identity in Christ.
Amen to that.

My thoughts are it's how God sees/looks at us after we place our faith in Jesus.

The word saint (hagios) means sacred, physically pure, morally blameless, ceremonially consecrated, Holy.
Saints in the N.T are those who belong to Christ so a saint is a Christian a true believer in Jesus.

We were not born saints but sinners and became saints when we placed our faith in Jesus, when we became reborn by our spiritual rebirth.

I don't think anywhere in the N.T a believer is referred to as a sinner. Yes Paul talks about himself.

1 Timothy 1:13-15
although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Notice he says 'Formerly'

Interestingly in Romans 7 Paul talks about his struggle with sin. He talks about the Paul that sins but he seems to indicate that it's the old Paul who sins and nit the new Paul.

Romans 7:17-25
But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul here is not making an excuse for his and neither should any of us.
I think what he is trying to bring out is that yes he does sin and when he does he is not his true self.

What is his true self?

He is a new man, a new man in Christ, a child of God. Paul's identity is the new man in Christ. A saint.

That's why he often refers to believers as saints. He does mention sins that believers were committing in his letters and it's obvious that he is not naive in the fact that saints still sin. But to me he is saying this is what you were and not what you are now.

You are are children of God, you are not sinners.

Identity is crucial.

We are saints who sometimes sin, not sinners who sometimes do right.

If we see ourselves as sinners then that's what we are and that is what we will do because it's an inevitable conclusion.


But if we see ourselves as saints we will see sin in a totally different light. It doesn't have to be inevitable to sin.

We are saints who sometimes sin, but we are still saints. Before the throne of God it does not change. We can still come before him as his children, his beloved, the Apple of his eye.

i myself when I have come accross people who refer to themselves as sinners because they problem with a certain character trait I say to them "No you are child of God a saint with a character trait in your life"

Identity is the key and as you say our identity is in Christ.

God himself says I will remember your sins no more. That's because of Jesus and because we are saints.

Just my limited thoughts.

Father bless you all, his kids and remember.

John 17:23
I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Our father loves us as much as he loves Jesus.

What does that tell you.