Applying Matthew 18:20 Rightly

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E

Enow

Banned
#21
Dec 21, 2012
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#21
FreeNChrist said:
Yes, the Holy Spirit is in us, but He isn't only in us. And that is the problem with what you are asserting. As has already been said, God is not limited to any one location, He is omnipresent; present everywhere at once. He is both in us and among us.
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John 14:[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Notice the difference in John 17 in how the world receives spirits after a sign that they can see BUT the real indwelling Holy Ghost is the only means on how we will know Him as apart from how the world knows in receiving spirits. Not once did Jesus ever gave tongues as a prayer language to be used as a sign that you will know the Holy Spirit by. BUT Jesus did say the difference between how the word knows spirits in their comings and goings with signs, and the knowing real Holy Spirit by His dwelling within you forever as promised for all those that come to & believed in Jesus Christ at their salvation.

More proof?

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world........[SUP]4 [/SUP]Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.[SUP]5 [/SUP]They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.[SUP]6 [/SUP]We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1 John 4:4 draws the line of discernment in knowing the real Holy Spirit from those spirits that comes over a believer apart from salvation, even when those spirits brings tongues without interpretation when that supernatural tongue can be found in the world as 1 John 4:5-6 confirms, before Pentecost had come with God's actual gift of tongues of other men's lips to speak unto the people to hear the Word of God in their native tongue.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#22
#22
Enow said:
John 14:[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Notice the difference in John 17 in how the world receives spirits after a sign that they can see and the real indwelling Holy Ghost as the only means on how we will know Him as apart from how the world knows in receiving spirits. Not once did Jesus ever gave tongues as a prayer language to be used as a sign that you will know the Holy Spirit by. BUT Jesus did say the difference between how the word knows spirits in their comings and goings with signs, and the knowing real Holy Spirit by His dwelling within you forever as promised for all those that come to & believed in Jesus Christ at their salvation.

More proof?

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world........[SUP]4 [/SUP]Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.[SUP]5 [/SUP]They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.[SUP]6 [/SUP]We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1 John 4:4 draws the line of discernment in knowing the real Holy Spirit from those spirits that comes over a believer apart from salvation, even when those spirits brings tongues without interpretation when that supernatural tongue can be found in the world as 1 John 4:5-6 confirms, before Pentecost had come with God's actual gift of tongues of other men's lips to speak unto the people to hear the Word of God in their native tongue.
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Proof of what? What is it you think you have proven?
 
E

Enow

Banned
#23
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#23
FreeNChrist said:
Proof of what? What is it you think you have proven?
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I meant more evidence to read this truth in His words. Only God can prove that to you.

Mediums consults ghosts; wizards consults familiar spirits; American Indians dance and chant for the Great spirit to come causing drunkenness when communing with that Great Spirit; all of these comes and goes and are received by feeling their presences time and time again.

Not so with the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost.

And for God to call these sinners away from those spirits to the Son is how any one can receive the real indwelling Holy Spirit to avoid any other times that sinners relate to those other spirits by.
 
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samuel23

Banned
#24
Dec 2, 2016
1,652
26
0
#24
Pentecostals think they are back on the day of Pentecost and want the spirit to COME DOWN, they don't seem to recognize that the spirit already came and now indwells believers, so the spirit is already with them even before they come to a church meeting(they don't have to pray the spirit down).
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#25
#25
Enow said:
I meant more evidence to read this truth in His words. Only God can prove that to you.

Mediums consults ghosts; wizards consults familiar spirits; American Indians dance and chant for the Great spirit to come causing drunkenness when communing with that Great Spirit; all of these comes and goes and are received by feeling their presences time and time again.

Not so with the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost.

And for God to call these sinners away from those spirits to the Son is how any one can receive the real indwelling Holy Spirit to avoid any other times that sinners relate to those other spirits by.
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Only God can prove what to me?
 
Stephen63

Stephen63

Banned
#28
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#28
samuel23 said:
Pentecostals think they are back on the day of Pentecost and want the spirit to COME DOWN, they don't seem to recognize that the spirit already came and now indwells believers, so the spirit is already with them even before they come to a church meeting(they don't have to pray the spirit down).
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The way I see it, you're one of 3 things:
  • A Pentecostal hater.
  • Full of ignorance in Pentecostalism.
  • Decided regardless to work against Pentecostalism.

If you have a 4th, I'd like to hear it.
 
E

Enow

Banned
#29
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#29
samuel23 said:
Pentecostals think they are back on the day of Pentecost and want the spirit to COME DOWN, they don't seem to recognize that the spirit already came and now indwells believers, so the spirit is already with them even before they come to a church meeting(they don't have to pray the spirit down).
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Imagine when a Pentecostal congregation acknolwedges the pastor at the pulpit but when service was about to begin, many leave their seats to look for him outside the pulpit, shouting his name to come as if he is not at the pulpit.

If Pentecostal believes that the Holy Spirit will never leave them, then there should be no seeking after Him to come down and fall on them again for any other reason other than what the Father had promised Him for us at our salvation which can never be repeated again because He will abide in us forever as our seal of adoption as a Witness of God that we are saved.
 
Stephen63

Stephen63

Banned
#30
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
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#30
Enow said:
Imagine when a Pentecostal congregation acknolwedges the pastor at the pulpit but when service was about to begin, many leave their seats to look for him outside the pulpit, shouting his name to come as if he is not at the pulpit.

If Pentecostal believes that the Holy Spirit will never leave them, then there should be no seeking after Him to come down and fall on them again for any other reason other than what the Father had promised Him for us at our salvation which can never be repeated again because He will abide in us forever as our seal of adoption as a Witness of God that we are saved.
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Sorry, it's not that way because you think so.

Acts 4:23When they had been released, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, “O Lord, it is You who MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THESEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM,25who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,
‘WHY DID THE GENTILES RAGE,
AND THE PEOPLES DEVISE FUTILE THINGS? 26‘THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND,
AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER
AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.’
27“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. 29“And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, 30while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.” 31And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.

The early church did it, how come the modern church can't?
 
E

Enow

Banned
#31
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#31
Stephen63 said:
The way I see it, you're one of 3 things:
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Stephen63 said:
  • A Pentecostal hater.
  • Full of ignorance in Pentecostalism.
  • Decided regardless to work against Pentecostalism.

If you have a 4th, I'd like to hear it.
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It is hard to discern what is not of Pentecostalism when some of them actually do practice that way, and when those who claim they do not practice that way, they certainly have the words and mentality to start practicing that way.

If we are ignorant, feel free to edify us as to which church of Pentecostalism does not speak nor practice that way.

I understand that not all Catholics believe everything that is of catholicism, just as not every Catholic church teaches Catholics to seek spiritual gifts directly from the Holy Spirit by praying to Him, but there is a reference from one of the church fathers ( not the ones mentioned in the N.T. ) that the RCC laid claim to that having tongues was serving as a sign to the RCC that they were keeping the doctrines within and yet 1 Corinthians 14:20-22 testifies that tongues will never serve as a sign or proof to believers for anything.

As you have received Christ Jesus.. walk ye in Him for you are complete in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 2:[SUP]5 [/SUP]For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.[SUP]6 [/SUP]As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:[SUP]7 [/SUP]Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.[SUP]8 [/SUP]Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.[SUP]9 [/SUP]For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.[SUP]10 [/SUP]And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Does all Pentecostalism believe they can continue to receive the Holy Spirit after salvation or not? If so, there is nothing to keep them from calling the Holy Spirit down to fall on them when you have set the precedent for any one in Pentecostalism to go in that direction.

When have we ever been called to defend a church, or a church at a city, or a church of an event or a church named after a saint?

We are called to be disciples of Jesus Christ in testifying of Him in seeking His glory; and none other.

If the church was really doing that, then you would not be so busy defending the church.

Does it means every body in the church are doing it? Since not all Catholics are believing all the works of catholicism as necessary, I believe it is possible that not all Pentecostals are doing that or having that mentality to call down the Holy Spirit to fall on them in worship, but the identity with that work of darkness is Pentecostalism just as Catholics are identified by the works of darkness in catholicism.

But feel free to correct us if there is no way Pentecostalism can be identified with that work of darkness.

As the Catholics do; Could this be the reason why the Vatican is seen as the Mother of harlots?

Pentecost - The Importance of the Holy Spirit

Would it be that ironic that the seeds of Pentecostalism today stemmed from this practice in the RCC?

Is this Pentecostal believer representing in his blog of what Pentecostalism is all about or not?
The defining belief of Pentecostalism is that an experience of the Holy Spirit, often referred to as ‘baptism in the Holy Spirit,’ is available to Christians to empower them with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. This second experience (which is usually subsequent to conversion but always logically distinct from conversion) should be normative for every Christian. It goes without saying, however, that according to Pentecostalism not all Christians are ‘baptised in the Spirit.’ This is the position held by denominations such as the Assemblies of God, which also emphasise that this experience is always accompanied by the initial physical evidence of speaking in tongues.
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Talking Pentecostalism: Holy Spirit Baptism: What Pentecostals believe

And yet...

Romans 8:[SUP]9 [/SUP]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So how can you claim misrepresentation of what Pentecostalism is when they seek to receive the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues as standing apart from salvation that would involved calling on the Holy Spirit to fall on them?

If you can disprove this Pentecostalist, be my guest, but the fault is not ours for our perceptions, now is it?
 
E

Enow

Banned
#32
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#32
Stephen63 said:
Sorry, it's not that way because you think so.

Acts 4:23When they had been released, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, “O Lord, it is You who MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THESEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM,25who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,
‘WHY DID THE GENTILES RAGE,
AND THE PEOPLES DEVISE FUTILE THINGS? 26‘THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND,
AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER
AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.’
27“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. 29“And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, 30while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.” 31And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.

The early church did it, how come the modern church can't?
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Those were new believers and only He can show that to you at this link as you read the entire Acts 4th chapter in sequence in leading up to that moment where you can see by His words that these were new believers. If you had read on after your quoted scripture, you would have seen their reactions as a new community of believers to prove that they were not saved before they had received Him.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-acts-4-proof-no-extra-filling-believers.html
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#33
Feb 24, 2009
3,041
1,027
113
New Zealand
#33
samuel23 said:
Pentecostals think they are back on the day of Pentecost and want the spirit to COME DOWN, they don't seem to recognize that the spirit already came and now indwells believers, so the spirit is already with them even before they come to a church meeting(they don't have to pray the spirit down).
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Yes in a local assembly church meeting the Holy Spirit is already there 'in the midst'. This is though not for just any church.. you are talking one that God would approve as His own.
 
E

Enow

Banned
#34
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#34
wattie said:
Yes in a local assembly church meeting the Holy Spirit is already there 'in the midst'. This is though not for just any church.. you are talking one that God would approve as His own.
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There is no meeting the Holy Spirit in a local assembly church when you had already received Him as promised for coming to & believing in Jesus Christ at your salvation.

The examination of our faith is that Jesus Christ is in us.

2 Corinthians 13:[SUP]5 [/SUP]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Therefore anything contrary to that testimony is not according to our faith in Jesus Christ because there is no need for the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Christ to be outside of us anywhere.

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.[SUP]3 [/SUP]But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

You cannot go to any place to receive His Presence or come into His Presence for that is the spirit of the antichrist.

Matthew 24:[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.[SUP]25 [/SUP]Behold, I have told you before.[SUP]26 [/SUP]Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Many believers chase after these movements of the "Spirit" thinking the Holy Spirit is there or here....but He is in us; and so there is no getting closer to the Holy Spirit than that, but they err anyway seeking after great signs which are not of Him.

If you remove the line of discernment, then you are departing from faith and allowing seducing spirits to come in to lead others astray in seeking after them and not after the face of Christ, the Son of God in worship. So beware & repent.

Psalm 27:[SUP]7 [/SUP]Hear, O Lord, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me.[SUP]8 [/SUP]When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek.[SUP]9 [/SUP]Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world......3...................and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.[SUP]4 [/SUP]Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#35
Feb 24, 2009
3,041
1,027
113
New Zealand
#35
The Holy Spirit does of course indwell those He has saved.. He is in the very soul of people He has converted.

But the Holy Spirit WILL walk 'in the midst' of a local church family that God would call His own.

* When they gather for bible study-- He will be there 'in the midst' in a special way
* When they gather for worship... the same
* When they gather for fellowship.. the same
* When they gather to resolve a dispute among each-other-- like Matthew 18.. He is there 'in the midst' in a special way.

Two roles of the Holy Spirit= with the individual and with the church family as a whole.

Think about the 'Lampstand' in revelation.. this isn't the place of the Holy Spirit in an individuals soul.. this is the Holy Spirit's place as the Head of one His churches.

So when the Holy Spirit- 'spews out' lukewarm believers.. this isn't the soul losing the presence of the Holy Spirit.. but a church family losing the presence of the Holy Spirit.

This isn't prayed for... to 'welcome in' the presence of the Holy Spirit.. if a local church is biblical.. one that God would call His own.. the Holy Spirit is there 'in the midst' .. every time they meet.

Matthew 18 shows this. Revelation has the lampstands. You can see the Holy Spirit acting in the midst.. also in Acts.
 
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