LEFT BEHIND
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Billy: That statement is very religiously correct...but not word of God correct. Read Matt 24, Mark 13, Jesus said that He would not return UNTIL after a time of great tribulation, Paul said to not let anyone fool you, Jesus could not return until after the Antichrist is revealed. The idea that Jesus could return at any moment is the invention of John Darby, not Jesus Christ.
Greetings LClark,
Do think that God only reveals his word to so-called recognized teachers in the Church. How about those who study daily and have been for over 40 years? Do think that God cannot and does not reveal the truth of his word to those who diligently search out his word? I guarantee you that what I have provided is not careless opinion, but is through years of careful exegesis. Regardless of who is teaching, we should all be like the Bereans, searching the scriptures to see if what is being taught is the truth.
There is definitely a spirit of deception in the world in these last days, for people are no longer able to recognize the truth. People have not understood that, when a person comes to Christ, they have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. The wrath that believers deserve as a result of our sins has been poured out on Christ and thereby satisfied. In relation to this, since that wrath has been satisfied, according to 1 Thes.5:9, we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath or any wrath for that matter. Likewise, for according to 1 Thes.1:10 & Rev.3:10, Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath.
The day of the Lord, which was prophesied of by the OT prophets and the apostles, is approaching quickly, with the opening of the 1st seal initiating God's wrath. Consequently, the church must be gathered prior to the beginning of that wrath, because these plagues of wrath will affect the entire world.
Furthermore, the absence of the word Ekklesia translated church from Revelation 4 onward, is not a coincidence. It was done purposely by the Holy Spirit to demonstrate that the church is no longer on the earth during the time of the "what must take place later," i.e. after the "what is now," which represents the church period.
Revelation 1 thru 3 = Church, but no Saints
Revelation 4 onward = Saints, but no church
The saints spoken of from Revelation 4 onward and beginning at 5:8, is in reference to those saints who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17, who are those saints that come out of the great tribulation period.
It is very sad that instead of trusting in the Lord's promise to come back and gather us, that Lord is first going to send his bride through his wrath, which he already experienced for us.
As I said before, this post tribulational view comes from a lack of recognizing that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth, as being two separate events. The other is not recognizing the difference between the trials and tribulation that comes at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness vs. God's coming unprecedented wrath. Put it this way, those who enter into that time period will not have ask "has the wrath of God started yet." For within just the first 3 1/2 years, approx. 50% of the earths population will be decimated and that is not counting trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor the fatalities that will occur from the seven bowl judgments.
Those who are truly in Christ should be longing for His appearing to gather the church, the blessed hope. If the church were to be gathered after the wrath of God, we would have nothing to comfort each other about nor would it be a blessed hope.
Before I go, please explain to me, How can the church be gathered when Christ returns to the earth to end age, when we are seen following him out of heaven, riding on white horses? It demonstrates that the church will have already had to have been in heaven in order to be able to follow him out of heaven. At some point the promise of John 14:1-3 must take place and I'm positive that it will not be after God's wrath has been poured out.
Do think that God only reveals his word to so-called recognized teachers in the Church. How about those who study daily and have been for over 40 years? Do think that God cannot and does not reveal the truth of his word to those who diligently search out his word? I guarantee you that what I have provided is not careless opinion, but is through years of careful exegesis. Regardless of who is teaching, we should all be like the Bereans, searching the scriptures to see if what is being taught is the truth.
There is definitely a spirit of deception in the world in these last days, for people are no longer able to recognize the truth. People have not understood that, when a person comes to Christ, they have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. The wrath that believers deserve as a result of our sins has been poured out on Christ and thereby satisfied. In relation to this, since that wrath has been satisfied, according to 1 Thes.5:9, we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath or any wrath for that matter. Likewise, for according to 1 Thes.1:10 & Rev.3:10, Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath.
The day of the Lord, which was prophesied of by the OT prophets and the apostles, is approaching quickly, with the opening of the 1st seal initiating God's wrath. Consequently, the church must be gathered prior to the beginning of that wrath, because these plagues of wrath will affect the entire world.
Furthermore, the absence of the word Ekklesia translated church from Revelation 4 onward, is not a coincidence. It was done purposely by the Holy Spirit to demonstrate that the church is no longer on the earth during the time of the "what must take place later," i.e. after the "what is now," which represents the church period.
Revelation 1 thru 3 = Church, but no Saints
Revelation 4 onward = Saints, but no church
The saints spoken of from Revelation 4 onward and beginning at 5:8, is in reference to those saints who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17, who are those saints that come out of the great tribulation period.
It is very sad that instead of trusting in the Lord's promise to come back and gather us, that Lord is first going to send his bride through his wrath, which he already experienced for us.
As I said before, this post tribulational view comes from a lack of recognizing that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth, as being two separate events. The other is not recognizing the difference between the trials and tribulation that comes at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness vs. God's coming unprecedented wrath. Put it this way, those who enter into that time period will not have ask "has the wrath of God started yet." For within just the first 3 1/2 years, approx. 50% of the earths population will be decimated and that is not counting trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor the fatalities that will occur from the seven bowl judgments.
Those who are truly in Christ should be longing for His appearing to gather the church, the blessed hope. If the church were to be gathered after the wrath of God, we would have nothing to comfort each other about nor would it be a blessed hope.
Before I go, please explain to me, How can the church be gathered when Christ returns to the earth to end age, when we are seen following him out of heaven, riding on white horses? It demonstrates that the church will have already had to have been in heaven in order to be able to follow him out of heaven. At some point the promise of John 14:1-3 must take place and I'm positive that it will not be after God's wrath has been poured out.
AH, You are approaching the bible with an incredible prejudice and it appears to be so ingrained that you are not aware of it. Let me give an example and then a little advise. When I was much younger I believed that a really saved person could never be lost, anyway I went to a different church and someone challenged me on it, calling it a false doctrine. Well, I was really hot and decided to get my bible out and prove him wrong, at that point the Lord spoke to me and said, don't try to prove him wrong,just see what the bible actually says on the subject. My advise to you, don't try to prove post trib is false, just try to see what the bible actually has to say on the subject. By that I mean the literal words in context without a personal interpretation placed on them.
When reading scripture, especially within the book of Revelation, if the literal sense makes sense, then don't seek any other sense. When I said "literal" in the post above, I wasn't speaking of taking everything literally, but that Samuel should do what he was claiming and that is providing the literal words of scripture and that because samuel23 doesn't provide it. His posts are more of "because I said so" without any scripture to back it up.
If you will read just a few verses down in 2 Thes.2, scripture also states that the restrainer will continue to restrain until he is taken out of the way and then that man of lawlessness will be revealed. The restrainer is holding back the full force of sin and the man of sin from being revealed until his proper time. The Holy Spirit is the only candidate as the One who could be restraining. This means that the Holy Spirit is restraining through the indwelling of believers, the church, and therefore, when he is removed so will the church be removed.
As far as the description of the Lord's return to gather the church, we have it explained in detail right in 1 Thes.4:13-18. As rejecting what you have to say, I would not reject it if you had all your exegetical bases covered, which has been the on-going problem. You proclaim things, but you leave pertinent information out and that to support the belief that you have adopted.
For example, I continue to make reference to the fact that before Jesus can return to the earth to end the age, scripture demonstrates that the wrath of God must first take place in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. in addition, other scripture demonstrates that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath. This should be applied when coming to a conclusion of when the gathering of the church takes place. That is, If wrath must come first before Jesus returns to end the age and believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, then the conclusion should be, the gathering of the church must take place before God's wrath begins. That is logical, scriptural, deduction. But what do you guys do with that information? You look for apologetics or repeat the one's that have already been used and you refute the truth instead of coming to a true, scriptural conclusion.
The church will never see the antichrist.
As far as the description of the Lord's return to gather the church, we have it explained in detail right in 1 Thes.4:13-18. As rejecting what you have to say, I would not reject it if you had all your exegetical bases covered, which has been the on-going problem. You proclaim things, but you leave pertinent information out and that to support the belief that you have adopted.
For example, I continue to make reference to the fact that before Jesus can return to the earth to end the age, scripture demonstrates that the wrath of God must first take place in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. in addition, other scripture demonstrates that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath. This should be applied when coming to a conclusion of when the gathering of the church takes place. That is, If wrath must come first before Jesus returns to end the age and believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, then the conclusion should be, the gathering of the church must take place before God's wrath begins. That is logical, scriptural, deduction. But what do you guys do with that information? You look for apologetics or repeat the one's that have already been used and you refute the truth instead of coming to a true, scriptural conclusion.
The church will never see the antichrist.
No one cares about fiction movies. The truth is the truth. Just because you don't see it, that's on you. Don't try and talk down us Christians who understand the Rapture just because of a stupid movie most of us never watched or a book we never read, that is done to imply we get our information from somewhere other than the bible, and that is FICTION. Just because you can't see the Rapture, that's between you and the Holy Spirit brother.
Christ came to the Lost sheep of Israel. I did an exegesis on the whole chapter. And I discovered something very deep things. Nothing in Matthew 1-14 has anything to do with any end time period. The writer does not have the chapter in its proper order, of course he probably didn't understand the Rapture. Anyhow, Jesus was sent to the Lost sheep of Israel, in chapter 24 they ask him when shall the things be, when will be the sign of thy coming and when will the end be, THREE QUESTIONS.
They asked this because Jesus was speaking about the destruction of the Temple, I think verse 6 is about that...6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
I think Jesus is telling his disciples, you will hear of wars and rumors of wars, OF COURSE !! The Holy Spirit would lead them away from these perilous times, none of the Disciple would be in Jerusalem at this time, hence he tells them, you will hear.....etc. But the END IS NOT YET !! The destruction of the temple is not the end. He knows they will hear from afar, so he warns them, this is NOT THE END. God just gave that to me recently.
Now Jesus has to tell them about the End, because that is what they asked about. Jesus has one problem we don't see. He is the Messiah to ALL THE LOST SHEEP !! He must inform the Messianic Jews their plight and the Unbelieving Jews their plight...EVERYONE MISSES THIS. Most Jews will be unbelievers when Jesus returns, probably 85-95 percent. These are the Jews that must Flee Judea when the Abomination happens. They go through a time of trouble like never before, if Jesus did not come back no flesh would be saved. Then Jesus warns them about false christs and false prophets, saying do not go unto the desert or secret chamber etc. etc. Then he tells them where they will see him coming, IN THE EASTERN SKIES !! Jesus tells them this because this is the Second Coming, Israel has turned to Jesus Christ just before the Abomination happens, the two-witnesses lead them to Christ (Malachi 4:5-6). The Anti-Christ wants to draw them out of their protective zone, in the wilderness, where God protects the Woman (Israel Rev. 12) for 1260 Days, so he can kill them. Then as we see, Jesus comes back, immediately after the tribulation, just like Rev. 19 indicates, and the Church is with Him.
Now Jesus has to inform the Messianic Jews their plight, this actually happens before verse 14, but the writer evidently doesn't understand when the rapture is compared to the Second Coming, he might not of even realized it was different........ But in Matthew 32-44 we see the RAPTURE of the Church. Jesus tells the Messianic Jews/Christian Jew their plight. There will be two in he field, one will be taken and the OTHER LEFT.......This is the Rapture. WATCH, for you know not what Hour your Lord cometh. But we know when the Second Coming is, it will be 1260 Days after the Abomination of Desolation, EVERYONE will see the Two-witnesses ascend, we will all see the Sixth Vial, where they gather at Armageddon !!
Also, the Rapture here is said to be like unto the Days of Noah, people are caught unawares, Marrying, drinking, partying etc. etc. I don't think the Second Coming will be like that, everyone will see Gods Plagues, and will be in hiding, not partying !!
Jesus painted two pictures here. The Rapture (Matthew 32-44 for the Messianic Jews like his disciples) and THE SECOND COMING, for the Jews who go through the Tribulation. After all, Jesus was a Prophet/Messiah to ALL ISRAEL.
Christ came to the Lost sheep of Israel. I did an exegesis on the whole chapter. And I discovered something very deep things. Nothing in Matthew 1-14 has anything to do with any end time period. The writer does not have the chapter in its proper order, of course he probably didn't understand the Rapture. Anyhow, Jesus was sent to the Lost sheep of Israel, in chapter 24 they ask him when shall the things be, when will be the sign of thy coming and when will the end be, THREE QUESTIONS.
They asked this because Jesus was speaking about the destruction of the Temple, I think verse 6 is about that...6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
I think Jesus is telling his disciples, you will hear of wars and rumors of wars, OF COURSE !! The Holy Spirit would lead them away from these perilous times, none of the Disciple would be in Jerusalem at this time, hence he tells them, you will hear.....etc. But the END IS NOT YET !! The destruction of the temple is not the end. He knows they will hear from afar, so he warns them, this is NOT THE END. God just gave that to me recently.
Now Jesus has to tell them about the End, because that is what they asked about. Jesus has one problem we don't see. He is the Messiah to ALL THE LOST SHEEP !! He must inform the Messianic Jews their plight and the Unbelieving Jews their plight...EVERYONE MISSES THIS. Most Jews will be unbelievers when Jesus returns, probably 85-95 percent. These are the Jews that must Flee Judea when the Abomination happens. They go through a time of trouble like never before, if Jesus did not come back no flesh would be saved. Then Jesus warns them about false christs and false prophets, saying do not go unto the desert or secret chamber etc. etc. Then he tells them where they will see him coming, IN THE EASTERN SKIES !! Jesus tells them this because this is the Second Coming, Israel has turned to Jesus Christ just before the Abomination happens, the two-witnesses lead them to Christ (Malachi 4:5-6). The Anti-Christ wants to draw them out of their protective zone, in the wilderness, where God protects the Woman (Israel Rev. 12) for 1260 Days, so he can kill them. Then as we see, Jesus comes back, immediately after the tribulation, just like Rev. 19 indicates, and the Church is with Him.
Now Jesus has to inform the Messianic Jews their plight, this actually happens before verse 14, but the writer evidently doesn't understand when the rapture is compared to the Second Coming, he might not of even realized it was different........ But in Matthew 32-44 we see the RAPTURE of the Church. Jesus tells the Messianic Jews/Christian Jew their plight. There will be two in he field, one will be taken and the OTHER LEFT.......This is the Rapture. WATCH, for you know not what Hour your Lord cometh. But we know when the Second Coming is, it will be 1260 Days after the Abomination of Desolation, EVERYONE will see the Two-witnesses ascend, we will all see the Sixth Vial, where they gather at Armageddon !!
Also, the Rapture here is said to be like unto the Days of Noah, people are caught unawares, Marrying, drinking, partying etc. etc. I don't think the Second Coming will be like that, everyone will see Gods Plagues, and will be in hiding, not partying !!
Jesus painted two pictures here. The Rapture (Matthew 32-44 for the Messianic Jews like his disciples) and THE SECOND COMING, for the Jews who go through the Tribulation. After all, Jesus was a Prophet/Messiah to ALL ISRAEL.
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Lets see how smart you are, do you recognize that the first statement by Paul takes president over what follows? Paul's original statement was that the church could not be gathered until after the revealing of the son of perdition. So no secondary statement by Paul can change that and must be interpreted in the context that the first statement has to be true. You have totally disregarded the basic way to read a message and you don't even know it.
P
Read on my friend and find this;
[FONT="]42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.[/FONT]
[FONT="]43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.[/FONT]
[FONT="]44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.[/FONT]
[FONT="]42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.[/FONT]
[FONT="]43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.[/FONT]
[FONT="]44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.[/FONT]