LEFT BEHIND

[Locutus]

(Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.



Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

[buddyt]

Ahwatukee

"therefore comfort each other with these words?" Paul wasn't talking about the Church being gathered using these words. The Subject of these verses is describing where the Dead are.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ahwatukee

"therefore comfort each other with these words?" Paul wasn't talking about the Church being gathered using these words. The Subject of these verses is describing where the Dead are.

Hellobuddyt,

Though it is true that Paul begins with comforting them regarding those who have died, the reason for them to be comforted is found in both the dead resurrecting and the living being transformed and being caught up:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Therefore, the comfort would be that both the dead and the living would be caught up to be with the Lord forever. The scripture doesn't mention anything about where the dead are.

 

[Adstar]

What aspect of the love of Christ compels you to believe that Christ will subject His church to the wrath of God as seen in the tribulation?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Most people who believe in the rapture but reject the pre-tribulation rapture do not believe that we Christians will be subject to Gods wrath and to portray that as being the position of those who reject the pre-tribulation rapture is not fair..

We believe Christians will suffer great persecution which is tribulation at the hands of the followers of the anti-christ but that those who survive through that great tribulation will be protected from the wrath of God that will be poured out upon the followers of the anti-christ..

So no we do not believe Christ will subject His church to wrath..

 

[buddyt]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But I would not have you to be ignorant brethren concerning them which are asleep that ye sorrow not even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
The subject here in verse 13 refers to where the dead are. Verse 14 clearly tells us where they are. Theyare with the Father. Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. What we are being told here is that at the Lords return he will bring those that have died in him with him. Simple to understand. Verse 16 doesn't read correctly it should read : For the Lord himself shall descend fromHeaven with a shout with the voice of the Arch-Angel and with theTrump of God and the dead in Christ shall return with him. We already know where the dead are so no need to say shall rise first. This written the way it is leads people to believe they'll be popping outof holes in the ground. The Trump of God refers to the last Trump you find in the book of Revelation. I have read here on this Forum that there are other Trumps other than those spoke of in Revelation. I asked for someone to tell me where but as expected I've never been given an answer. If you know please tell me. Verse 17 tells us what happens at Christ's return. 1 Cor.15:52-53 Verse 18 is just simply telling us to not worry about where the Dead are as the subject starts out in Verse 13.
Nowhere in Gods word does it say Christ will return twice. If you are one of those who believe this your setting yourself up to be in Satan's wagon when he tells you hes hereto rapture you away. Be very careful my friend don't be misled. Do alittle study check out the word of God. Don't believe Me or any other Man check it out yourself.

 

[Ahwatukee]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But I would not have you to be ignorantbrethren concerning them which are asleep that ye sorrow not even asothers which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died androse again even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring withhim.
The subject here in verse 13 refers towhere the dead are. Verse 14 clearly tells us where they are. Theyare with the Father. Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the wordof the Lord that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of theLord shall not prevent them which are asleep. What we are being toldhere is that at the Lords return he will bring those that have diedin him with him. Simple to understand. Verse 16 doesn't readcorrectly it should read : For the Lord himself shall descend fromHeaven with a shout with the voice of the Arch-Angel and with theTrump of God and the dead in Christ shall return with him. We alreadyknow where the dead are so no need to say shall rise first. Thiswritten the way it is leads people to believe they'll be popping outof holes in the ground. The Trump of God refers to the last Trump youfind in the book of Revelation. I have read here on this Forum thatthere are other Trumps other than those spoke of in Revelation. Iasked for someone to tell me where but as expected I've never beengiven an answer. If you know please tell me. Verse 17 tells us whathappens at Christ's return. 1 Cor.15:52-53 Verse 18 is just simplytelling us to not worry about where the Dead are as the subjectstarts out in Verse 13.
Nowhere in Gods word does it say Christwill return twice. If you are one of those who believe this yoursetting yourself up to be in Satan's wagon when he tells you hes hereto rapture you away. Be very careful my friend don't be misled. Do alittle study check out the word of God. Don't believe Me or any otherMan check it out yourself.

The scripture includes everyone mentioned in the context, which is the resurrection of the dead and the transformation of the living and they being caught up.

For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout with the voice of the Arch-Angel and with the Trump of God and the dead in Christ shall return with him.

That is not the correct interpretation of that verse. The interlinear and all of the major translations have "the dead in Christ will rise first." The word "rise" is in reference to them being resurrected. The word anastasis translated resurrection is made up of two words ana = up and histemi = to stand, properly "to stand up again bodily." The word anastasis always refers to the body standing up again.

Although, you are correct in that, Jesus does bring with him from heaven the spirits of those who will have died in him, it is not stated here in verse 16, but in verse 14, as demonstrated below.

"For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."

When it is time for the resurrection to take place, the Lord will descend from heaven and will bring with him the souls/spirits who have died in him and who will have been in heaven with him. At the same time their bodies will be resurrected and their spirits will be reunited with those resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, the living will be transformed into those immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected, with the whole group meeting the Lord in the air.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Most people who believe in the rapture but reject the pre-tribulation rapture do not believe that we Christians will be subject to Gods wrath and to portray that as being the position of those who reject the pre-tribulation rapture is not fair..

We believe Christians will suffer great persecution which is tribulation at the hands of the followers of the anti-christ but that those who survive through that great tribulation will be protected from the wrath of God that will be poured out upon the followers of the anti-christ..

So no we do not believe Christ will subject His church to wrath..

Hello Adstar,

The problem with that is that, nowhere in Revelation is the church mentioned after the end of chapter 3. And there is nothing in Revelation stating that the anyone but the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel are sealed during that time. The great tribulation saints are not even exempt from being exposed to God's wrath.

In order to understand this, one must understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. The only people who are protected during that time, will be the woman Israel, who will be protected out in the wilderness during that last 3 1/2 years.

In Rev.3:10, Jesus said that all who keep the patience of his word, he will keep them out of the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the face of the earth. If the church were here we would be exposed to the following:

4th Seal: A fourth of the earths population killed by sword, famine, disease and wild beasts of the earth.

1st Trumpet: A third of the earth and trees are burned up, as well as the fatalities that will result

2nd Trumpet: A third of the creatures in the sea killed and a third of the ships destroyed, as well as the fatalities of those on the ships, in the cities on the coasts and hundreds of miles inland. The fatalities are many, but the number unknown.

3rd Trumpet: An object from heaven contaminates a third of the rivers and fresh water and many people die from drinking it. How many fatalities will be caused from drinking the water?

4th Trumpet: Sun, moon and stars darkened, no fatalities from this event

5th Trumpet: An angel opens the Abyss releasing demonic beings who are commanded to torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months having tails and stings like scorpions. The only people who are exempt from this plague will be the 144,000. No one else is mentioned as being protected.

6th Trumpet: Four fallen angels are released from the area of the Euphrates and they gather their demonic army of 200 million who kill a third of the earths population by the fire, smoke and sulfur proceeding from their mouths.

In addition to the above, at the middle of the tribulation, the beast will stand in the temple proclaiming to be God and only those who have the mark will be able to electronically credit and debit their bank accounts. Without the mark no one will be able to buy or sell. Anyone without the mark will not even be able to be apart of the world system.

These are just some of the plagues of wrath that will be taking place during that time. As you can see, it makes more sense for the Lord to gather his church prior to his wrath rather than after his wrath. The truth is that, no one else is mentioned as being protected during the time of God's wrath and I haven't even mentioned the bowl judgments.

 

[samuel23]

The first statement of Paul takes precedent over his secondary statement. The first statement of Paul..."even so them which sleep(have died) in Jesus will God bring with Him(at Christ return)". So it is an established fact that when Jesus returns to gather the church that He will bring with Him those who have died. Now, whatever Paul says in his secondary statement MUST be interpreted with the understanding that God will bring the dead in christ with Jesus at His return. So the statement, "the dead in Christ shall rise first" has to be interpreted within the context that it is ALREADY established that the dead in Christ will be with Jesus when He returns. So the dead rising has to mean that God will call them forth FIRST(they are somewhere with the Lord) and they will then return with Christ. I agree with buddy that no Christian is going to be coming up out of holes in the ground.

 

[samuel23]

I agree with Adstar, the tribulation that Jesus described is most definitely NOT THE WRATH OF GOD, one can read Jesus description of that tribulation in Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, no wrath of God is mentioned but a great persecution of Christians is clearly described. Jesus gathers the church after that time of tribulation and THEN the wrath of God begins.

 

[tanakh]

I was just thinking this morning how convenient for Satan that this movie came out. You see, the pre tribulation gathering is as false as a three dollar bill, it is an end time deception, designed to cause vast numbers of folks to fall away from the faith. The Left Behind movie has convinced millions that if the Antichrist appears and the tribulation begins, that they have missed the gathering of the church, therefore they were not really saved. Problem is that no one will be taken at that time because the gathering of the church is not until after the tribulation. The stroke of genius here is that Satan made the gathering INVISIBLE so no one will have to explain why they did not see it happen.

Another stroke of Genius is the way he has managed to explain away the huge crowd dressed in white with palm branches that no man can number coming out of the great tribulation,(Rev 7), by inventing a special group of ''tribulation saints'' that sound suspiciously like the Bride which is supposed to have been Raptured before the great tribulation started

 

[Rondonmon]

Lets see how smart you are, do you recognize that the first statement by Paul takes president over what follows? Paul's original statement was that the church could not be gathered until after the revealing of the son of perdition. So no secondary statement by Paul can change that and must be interpreted in the context that the first statement has to be true. You have totally disregarded the basic way to read a message and you don't even know it.

This belief is because you don't understand this passage brother. There are two ways that this passage is interpreted, and with either interpretation you are wrong, Paul says no such thing. He states that that the Church will depart before the Anti-Christ is revealed. The Subject/article being spoken of is the Gathering together unto Christ, not some Apostasy. The word used is apostasia and it was translated as depart/departed in the first 7 English translations, then the KJV translated it a "FALLING AWAY" and they inferred of the Faith. But where in the passage is FAITH MENTIONED ?

The subject it the Gathering unto Christ and the Day of the Lord being upon the Thessalonians. Paul says THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME (Day of the Lord) except there come a Departing (of the Church) because he says later on, I have told you before, and the SUBJECT IS.....The Gathering unto the Lord, meaning the Church Departs.

The Latin Vulgate for a 1000 years previous to the 7 English translations also used a word that Meant Departure. So with have all of these on one side, and the KJV on the other. It has been thought the KJV translators (English) were taking a swipe at the RCC per the apostasy angle.

The other interpretation is there is an apostasy of the Church before the Anti-Christ is revealed. Well there could be an apostasy, then the Rapture could happen in between that and the Anti-Christ being revealed. Because something is unspoken, doesn't mean it is not going to happen.

Yet my belief is the correct one. That passage is speaking about the Church gathering unto Christ and not going through the Wrath of God (Day of the Lord) then Paul says, there will be a Departing (Of the very thing being spoken of, THE CHURCH Or Body of Christ gathering unto the Lord and missing the Wrath of God).

 

[Rondonmon]

Read on my friend and find this;
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

As I showed him above in post #33 Matthew 24:29 is the Second Coming with the Church.

Matthew 24:32-44 is the Rapture.

Matthew 24:16-26 is the Times of Troubles

Matthew 24:27-31 is the Second Coming.

 

[buddyt]

It's very simple we aren't going anywhere unless we die first. Jesus is coming here as it is written.

 

[samuel23]

Hi Ron: Rather then you and I speaking why don't we allow Paul to speak for himself..by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him(gathering of the church)...let no man deceive you for that day shall not come except FIRST that man of sin(antichrist) is revealed. Paul said that we can't go until the Antichrist is revealed, Paul also said that we can't go until the falling away, two things have to happen according to Paul. Since the falling away has to happen BEFORE we can be gathered to Christ therefore it could hardly be the gathering of the church. If the falling away is the rapture then that would make Paul to say that we cannot be raptured UNTIL after the raptured?? If that makes sense to you then you need to pray for wisdom.

 

[notuptome]

Most people who believe in the rapture but reject the pre-tribulation rapture do not believe that we Christians will be subject to Gods wrath and to portray that as being the position of those who reject the pre-tribulation rapture is not fair..

We believe Christians will suffer great persecution which is tribulation at the hands of the followers of the anti-christ but that those who survive through that great tribulation will be protected from the wrath of God that will be poured out upon the followers of the anti-christ..

So no we do not believe Christ will subject His church to wrath..

Well that would be convenient but if you read all of what is said scripture says it is tribulation such as the earth has not seen. It is far more than the persecution that the church experiences for the name of Christ.

Secondly the tribulation is upon Israel not the church. It is a Jerusalem centered and Israel focused event not church related. The 144,000 will be Jewish not Gentile.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Rondonmon]

Hi Ron: Rather then you and I speaking why don't we allow Paul to speak for himself..by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him(gathering of the church)...let no man deceive you for that day shall not come except FIRST that man of sin(antichrist) is revealed. Paul said that we can't go until the Antichrist is revealed, Paul also said that we can't go until the falling away, two things have to happen according to Paul. Since the falling away has to happen BEFORE we can be gathered to Christ therefore it could hardly be the gathering of the church. If the falling away is the rapture then that would make Paul to say that we cannot be raptured UNTIL after the raptured?? If that makes sense to you then you need to pray for wisdom.

Why do you guys have such a hard time understanding this simple passage ?

WHAT DAY ? Aren't you missing it ? The Thessalonians were fearful they had missed the Rapture (Gathering together unto Christ) and thus they were fearful that they were in The Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath) and Paul tells them, that Day shall not come, (The Wrath of God/Day of the Lord) except there come a Departing FIRST (What is Departing ? THE CHURCH not the FAITH !! Geeeeze) And why would we say its the Church and not the Faith ? Because the very first verse tells us what THE SUBJECT IS !!! The Gathering together unto the Lord (Rapture)................No where in this passage is Faith spoken of, NOWHERE !!

There is no "FALLING AWAY" from the Faith, it is a DEPARTING OF THE CHURCH........That is what is being spoken of here, it is so simple. The problem is you guys place words in Paul's mouth he never spoke or wrote. The first Seven English Translations had DEPART or DEPARTING.......The Subject was the RAPTURE (Of the Church( or Gathering together unto Christ.......

[FONT=&quot]2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

For that DAY can not happen until the Church (Gathering Together unto Christ) DEPARTS !! Then the Anti-Christ will be revealed.

Take it up with the KJV, the changed it, the first 7 translations had DEPARTED......The Latin Vulgate used a word that meant DEPARTING. The Subject IS NOT FAITH.....ANYWHERE....Its the Body of Christ missing the WRATH OF GOD.....


[/FONT]

 

[Locutus]

What are you talkin' 'bout Willis?

2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (Greek = apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.


G646 apostasia ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

feminine of the same as G647;

defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy").

KJV: falling away, forsake.

 

[tanakh]

Why do you guys have such a hard time understanding this simple passage ?

WHAT DAY ? Aren't you missing it ? The Thessalonians were fearful they had missed the Rapture (Gathering together unto Christ) and thus they were fearful that they were in The Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath) and Paul tells them, that Day shall not come, (The Wrath of God/Day of the Lord) except there come a Departing FIRST (What is Departing ? THE CHURCH not the FAITH !! Geeeeze) And why would we say its the Church and not the Faith ? Because the very first verse tells us what THE SUBJECT IS !!! The Gathering together unto the Lord (Rapture)................No where in this passage is Faith spoken of, NOWHERE !!

There is no "FALLING AWAY" from the Faith, it is a DEPARTING OF THE CHURCH........That is what is being spoken of here, it is so simple. The problem is you guys place words in Paul's mouth he never spoke or wrote. The first Seven English Translations had DEPART or DEPARTING.......The Subject was the RAPTURE (Of the Church( or Gathering together unto Christ.......

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

For that DAY can not happen until the Church (Gathering Together unto Christ) DEPARTS !! Then the Anti-Christ will be revealed.

Take it up with the KJV, the changed it, the first 7 translations had DEPARTED......The Latin Vulgate used a word that meant DEPARTING. The Subject IS NOT FAITH.....ANYWHERE....Its the Body of Christ missing the WRATH OF GOD.....

This is a weak argument. How many people believed or even heard of the Pre Trib Rapture during and up to the time the KJV was ever produced?. I used to be a Pre Tribber but fortunaterly I ve left it behind.

 

[JesusRules1]

I was just thinking this morning how convenient for Satan that this movie came out. You see, the pre tribulation gathering is as false as a three dollar bill, it is an end time deception, designed to cause vast numbers of folks to fall away from the faith. The Left Behind movie has convinced millions that if the Antichrist appears and the tribulation begins, that they have missed the gathering of the church, therefore they were not really saved. Problem is that no one will be taken at that time because the gathering of the church is not until after the tribulation. The stroke of genius here is that Satan made the gathering INVISIBLE so no one will have to explain why they did not see it happen.

You are right samuel23,the pre-trib teaching that millions of people believe will overthrow the faith of many people,and they will end up following the world when they say Peace and safety,when the world comes together as one and attempts to achieve peace on earth.

But since we know the world,and what is going on by advanced technology,I do not believe that they will lose faith because they think they missed the resurrection,for we would know if millions of people disappeared,and especially it would be in the news,but they will probably think that the Bible was false,but I do not suppose they would think that,but that it was taught the wrong interpretation for many years,and give heed to the new age movement interpretation,which is the standard format of the unified religious system,and look at the Bible as if there is no resurrection,no heaven,Jesus is not Lord and Savior,and believe that it is only about establishing a kingdom on this earth,and spiritual evolution.

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Now this can apply that those whose faith was overthrown believed that the Bible was false,because the resurrection did not happen,or that the Bible is true,but they missed the resurrection,because they cannot see but what is in front of their face,and does not know what is going on in the world,to know if people got caught up or not.

Preaching a pre-trib resurrection will overthrow the faith of some,and they will end up following the unified religious system,based on spiritual evolution,and it is only about this earth.

And for people that believe that God would not allow the saints to go through the tribulation,then God would of not allowed any saint to be persecuted for the history of the Church.The great tribulation is not worse persecution on an individual level,for persecution is persecution no matter the time period,but it is on a bigger scale for it involves the world persecuting the saints,and the tribulation is not for the world,but towards the saints.

 

[dcontroversal]

AH, You are approaching the bible with an incredible prejudice and it appears to be so ingrained that you are not aware of it. Let me give an example and then a little advise. When I was much younger I believed that a really saved person could never be lost, anyway I went to a different church and someone challenged me on it, calling it a false doctrine. Well, I was really hot and decided to get my bible out and prove him wrong, at that point the Lord spoke to me and said, don't try to prove him wrong,just see what the bible actually says on the subject. My advise to you, don't try to prove post trib is false, just try to see what the bible actually has to say on the subject. By that I mean the literal words in context without a personal interpretation placed on them.

Until one is honest with

a. The word Saint or Saints and how it is applied in the N.T.
b. The word KEEP as applied unto the faithful church at Philadelphia
c. The fact that the wrath of GOD is announced as ARRIVING at the 7th trump in HEAVEN
d. The words Orge and Thiplisis and who they apply unto.....

They will continually miss the mark.....!