LEFT BEHIND

[dcontroversal]

This is a weak argument. How many people believed or even heard of the Pre Trib Rapture during and up to the time the KJV was ever produced?. I used to be a Pre Tribber but fortunaterly I ve left it behind.

WISE move.....same here....bible does not teach pre-trib.......but it does teach a post trib/PRE-WRATH ingathering at the 7th and final trump!

 

[Rondonmon]

This is a weak argument. How many people believed or even heard of the Pre Trib Rapture during and up to the time the KJV was ever produced?. I used to be a Pre Tribber but fortunaterly I ve left it behind.

The weak argument is your argument that the passage is about faith. Point out where faith is spoken of in the whole passage, you can't. And never will be able to. You want my original exegesis on this ?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.


“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.


Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”
The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).


This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”


They were as follows:
1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)
2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)
3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)
4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)
5. The Great Bible (1540)
6. The Beeches Bible (1576)
7. The Geneva Bible (1608)


Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:


Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.


In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”


And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.


I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1500 years.

 

[samuel23]

The idea that the falling away is the rapture is fall down laughing ridiculous!!! That would have Paul saying that the rapture cannot occur until after the rapture has occurred. This is a new low for the pre-tribers.

 

[Locutus]

Left Behind in the Old Testament by BENJAMIN L. MERKLE

In order to understand the concepts of being taken and being left behind, it will be helpful to examine these concepts in the OT. The prophets constantly warn Israel and Judah that their enemies will come and destroy their cities as a punishment from God.

But God will not utterly destroy them.

In his grace God will leave behind a remnant who will cry out for help and salvation. It is those who are left behind who are the blessed ones. This pattern is seen many times in the OT prophetical books.

For example, Isaiah prophesies concerning the future of Jerusalem.

In that day the branch of the LORD shall be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall be the pride and honor of the survivors of Israel.

And he who is left in Jerusalem will be called holy, everyone who has been recorded for life in Jerusalem, when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the blood stains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. (Isa 4:2-4).....

This text is a prophecy concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the consequent exile.

Notice that those who are left and remain are the holy remnant.In Isa 3 the prophet describes how the Lord is "taking away"from Jerusalem and Judah their leaders (w. 1 -3). Because of their unfaithfulness God will wash away the filth of the ungodly people and Zion will be cleansed.

But those who are left behind are considered the righteous remnant....

The imagery of being taken as a sign of God's judgment is found else where in Jesus' teaching. In the Parable of the Weeds (Matt 13:24-30,36-43)

 

[Rondonmon]

The idea that the falling away is the rapture is fall down laughing ridiculous!!! That would have Paul saying that the rapture cannot occur until after the rapture has occurred. This is a new low for the pre-tribers.

The fact you can't show me where the passage is speaking about FAITH ANYWHERE is ridiculous.

 

[tanakh]

The weak argument is your argument that the passage is about faith. Point out where faith is spoken of in the whole passage, you can't. And never will be able to. You want my original exegesis on this ?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.


“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.


Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”
The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).


This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”


They were as follows:
1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)
2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)
3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)
4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)
5. The Great Bible (1540)
6. The Beeches Bible (1576)
7. The Geneva Bible (1608)


Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:


Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.


In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”


And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.


I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1500 years.

So your belief in the Pre Trib position rests at least partly on the opinions of a Tommy Ice whom I have never heard of and the fact that the word Apostia as used by Paul appears in Acts with regard to Jews departing from the Laws of Moses. It also appears to rely on having a very good knowledge of Greek which I don't have along with countless thousands of others who seem to manage without it. I will return to that presently.

Firstly you find the use of this word in Thessolonians and Acts 'Compelling' Why? 2 Thessolonians has no mention of
this charge against Paul you can read the whole letter and not one mention of it can be found.

You refer to the Parable of the wise and foolish Virgins to support your view that either saved or not. In the story they are all virgins they all had oil to start with but the foolish ones were obviously not saved when the Bridegroom arrived
In short they were Apostates who thought they could still be accepted in the end.

You also claim that there are three places where departure from faith in Christ is mentioned as part of your argument
One in particular is well worth quoting ....

I Tim 4:1 RSV

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits
and doctrines of demons through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared.

I find this to be very true!

You list the various translations pre dating the KJV where Departure or Departing is used as proof that the KJV changed the wording and imply that this is further proof that the Pre Trib belief is correct and that the 2 Thessalonian passage is being wrongly understood. I believe that this actually enforces the opposite idea. To believe this to be true would mean that every translator or reader of these Bibles deliberately ignored this and carried on believing that there was only one further coming of Christ at the end of the tribulation for several hundred years. This is what most of the Church believed and still do.

The whole Pre Trib idea was first promoted by John Nelson Darby around 1830 and made popular mainly in the US by Cyrus Scofield who produced his own edited edition of the KJV along with his notes in 1911. John Darby was a leading member of the Plymouth Brethren movement in the UK. He and his supporters broke away over doctrinal differences and Darby headed a cult known as the exclusive Brethren who make the JWs and Mormons look liberal by comparison.
Knowing the real origins of the Pre Trib teachings make me more distrustful than average.

A leading 19th Century Greek Scholar named Samuel Tregelles who was also a contemporary member of the Brethren movement opposed the Pre Trib doctrine and wrote a book titled The Hope of Christs Second Coming which is still in print. I would rather trust him than Tommy Ice thanks all the same.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The weak argument is your argument that the passage is about faith. Point out where faith is spoken of in the whole passage, you can't. And never will be able to. You want my original exegesis on this ?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.


“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.


Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”
The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).


This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”


They were as follows:
1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)
2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)
3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)
4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)
5. The Great Bible (1540)
6. The Beeches Bible (1576)
7. The Geneva Bible (1608)


Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:


Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.


In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”


And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.


I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1500 years.

Though "departure" is one of the words that can be translated from "apostasia" which is derived from aphístēmi, it, cannot be used to refer to departing up into the air to meet the Lord.

If the Holy Spirit wanted to covey that meaning to us, he would have had Paul use the word "harpazo" as he did twice before when he was "caught up" to the third heaven and the "catching away" of the living church, the meaning being "to be snatched up/caught up." The translated word "departure" would have to reflect the meaning of the Greek, which would be to depart from ones standing in faith, as it is with Acts 21:21.

The other problem with this interpretation becomes apparent when we break down the context:

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."

The coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him (caught up), is referred to as "the day of the Lord" in verse 2 and as "that day" in verse 3. Therefore, if we apply your interpretion of the word "apostasia" as referring to our departing and being gathered to the Lord, if we paraphrase the scripture would read as follows"

"Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for the coming of our Lord and our departing to be gathered to him, will not come until our departing and our being gathered to him occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

In other words, the event of our departing and being gathered to the Lord, won't take place until our departing to be gathered to the Lord occurs.

This interpretation that you are claiming here is well known. But the meaning of the word "apostasia" is properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing, defection, revolt.

To define the words apostasia and aphistemi to mean departure up into the wild blue yonder, is to twist, bend and mutilate those words.

 

[Enow]

I was just thinking this morning how convenient for Satan that this movie came out. You see, the pre tribulation gathering is as false as a three dollar bill, it is an end time deception, designed to cause vast numbers of folks to fall away from the faith. The Left Behind movie has convinced millions that if the Antichrist appears and the tribulation begins, that they have missed the gathering of the church, therefore they were not really saved. Problem is that no one will be taken at that time because the gathering of the church is not until after the tribulation. The stroke of genius here is that Satan made the gathering INVISIBLE so no one will have to explain why they did not see it happen.

You are only half right about that movie when it teaches that all christians will be taken, when in fact, many saved believers will be left behind for not looking to Jesus Christ for help in discerning & departing from iniquity, and even some will love their lives and be ensnared by the cares of this life that they would not want to leave which is hardly descriptive of what the saints will be undergoing towards the end of the great tribulation when Jesus comes back as the King of kings.

1 Corinthians 5th chapter at this link below:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+5&version=KJV

If you consider in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter on how church is to maintain proper fellowship and not to eat with a brother in iniquity, then surely by the grace of God now.. you may see why God is judging His House first at the pre trib rapture event because no brother still in iniquity will be allowed to eat with Him at the Marriage Supper.

When was the last time any church excommunicated an unrepentant believer? You better believe as that practice is lacking in the latter days, God will be doing some excommunicating for proper fellowship at the Marriage Supper.