I, Robot

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Depleted

Guest
#1
#1
I truly believe God elected me. I absolutely know I never "made a decision to invite Christ into my heart." No one ever told me I should and I wasn't in a place in my life where I would have gone okey-dokey had someone suggested such a thing. I didn't choose Jesus anymore than Jonah chose to go where God told him to go. Obviously, at some point I got (and am getting) where God wanted me to go, but I never, ever chose God.

And because of that, people keep telling me that I think God is a robot maker or a puppeteer. Let me settle at least that much and allow me the choice "robot." I am God's robot?

I don't get that. For those of you who think the two choices are "Man chooses God" or "Man is a robot," would you please explain that to me? I keep asking people who say things like that, but never get a clear answer. (Usually I get absolutely no answer.) So, if you are the kind of person who thinks either we choose God or we are robots, would you please explain to me why I am a robot?
 
notmyown

notmyown

Senior Member
#2
May 26, 2016
4,656
1,107
113
#2
i think Grandpa put it beautifully when asked if God saved him against his will...

he said, no, he changed my will to align with His. :)
 
Locutus

Locutus

Senior Member
#3
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
#3
I think the doctrine of election/predestination is woefully misunderstood.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 
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Sully

Guest
#4
#4
Jeremiah 1:5 is always on my mind. Do we know for sure we did not make a choice before this life? :confused:
 
beta

beta

Senior Member
#6
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
332
83
#6
Depleted said:
I truly believe God elected me. I absolutely know I never "made a decision to invite Christ into my heart." No one ever told me I should and I wasn't in a place in my life where I would have gone okey-dokey had someone suggested such a thing. I didn't choose Jesus anymore than Jonah chose to go where God told him to go. Obviously, at some point I got (and am getting) where God wanted me to go, but I never, ever chose God.

And because of that, people keep telling me that I think God is a robot maker or a puppeteer. Let me settle at least that much and allow me the choice "robot." I am God's robot?

I don't get that. For those of you who think the two choices are "Man chooses God" or "Man is a robot," would you please explain that to me? I keep asking people who say things like that, but never get a clear answer. (Usually I get absolutely no answer.) So, if you are the kind of person who thinks either we choose God or we are robots, would you please explain to me why I am a robot?
Click to expand...
No, never a Robot ! Had God wanted Robots He could easily have made us such instead of 'struggling with our conversion over millennia !
What is on God's mind is to 'conform us to the image of His Son, our Savior and Redeemer Jesus Christ !
 
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samuel23

Banned
#7
Dec 2, 2016
1,652
26
0
#7
Some of these things sound strange to me. How could you be a Christian without ever calling upon Jesus to be your Savior? God changed my will?? The one thing God refuses to change is our will, otherwise God would just change the will of every human so they could all be saved. Maybe I am missing something here? The Lord in His kindness will place us in a position so that we can accept his Son as our Savior, however God will allow us to chose.
 
M

Miri

Guest
#8
#8
We would never choose God, it takes the woeing of the Holy Spirit to melt hearts. :)
 
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samuel23

Banned
#9
Dec 2, 2016
1,652
26
0
#9
My salvation experience is possibly a little unusual because God actually talked to me. I had never read the bible at the time and had no influence from human ideas. The very first thing God said to me was, "you must accept My Son as your Savior". God went on to explain other things....THEN HE WAS VERY QUIET....you know why?.....BECAUSE I HAD TO CHOSE. God moves on people in love to draw then to Jesus Christ...then He stops...you know why...because WE have to chose. In order to be saved you have to accept Jesus as Savior...and God will NEVER force your will in that area.
 
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Depleted

Guest
#11
#11
samuel23 said:
Some of these things sound strange to me. How could you be a Christian without ever calling upon Jesus to be your Savior? God changed my will?? The one thing God refuses to change is our will, otherwise God would just change the will of every human so they could all be saved. Maybe I am missing something here? The Lord in His kindness will place us in a position so that we can accept his Son as our Savior, however God will allow us to chose.
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God did allow choice. We all chose to hide in the darkness to keep our sin. And then God "carried out."

[FONT=&quot]16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”[/FONT]

So, you think that makes me a robot?
 
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oldethennew

Banned
#12
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
#12
first of all, God The Father' leads us to Repentance'...

as it is written,
NO MAN COMES TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER DRAW HIM'...

YES, Lynn, Jesus does 'find us', we cannot possibly FIND Him...

ROM. 3:10-11.
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

after He starts 'drawing-us', we will seek Him, but we certainly cannot take
'any credit' or possibly understand such profound Love before He calls...
 
maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#13
Apr 18, 2013
9,328
2,417
113
#13
Depleted said:
I truly believe God elected me. I absolutely know I never "made a decision to invite Christ into my heart." No one ever told me I should and I wasn't in a place in my life where I would have gone okey-dokey had someone suggested such a thing. I didn't choose Jesus anymore than Jonah chose to go where God told him to go. Obviously, at some point I got (and am getting) where God wanted me to go, but I never, ever chose God.

And because of that, people keep telling me that I think God is a robot maker or a puppeteer. Let me settle at least that much and allow me the choice "robot." I am God's robot?

I don't get that. For those of you who think the two choices are "Man chooses God" or "Man is a robot," would you please explain that to me? I keep asking people who say things like that, but never get a clear answer. (Usually I get absolutely no answer.) So, if you are the kind of person who thinks either we choose God or we are robots, would you please explain to me why I am a robot?
Click to expand...
That isn't the correct framing of the argument.

Both sides of the argument create straw men for the other side.

The correct framing of the argument is that either YOU made the final decision to accept Christ, or GOD made the final decision for you to accept Christ...
both propositions seem to be antithetical, and so it must be one or the other, and not both.

It is further complicated in the fact that Calvinists believe we DID choose, but only AFTER god already changed us in a way which made it impossible for us to choose otherwise... thus the paradox of free will is further obfuscated, but it is still present and not at all entirely resolved.

That is the theological argument.
It has been argued and debated for centuries... with no solution yet that seems devoid of paradox.




Conclusion:

1. If the greatest minds in theology and philosophy have debated this for centuries, it's unlikely it will be resolved in a forum post on the internet.

2. Because of the paradoxical nature of the argument, and the fact it's resolution hinges upon understanding the mind of God, which is infinite... it's likely that finite beings will never produce a solution which is able to resolve all possible paradoxes.

3. Furthermore, whatever the solution is, it will necessarily be based in God's absolute truth... and it will therefore be completely independent of how we "felt" when we got saved.
 
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Depleted

Guest
#14
#14
samuel23 said:
My salvation experience is possibly a little unusual because God actually talked to me. I had never read the bible at the time and had no influence from human ideas. The very first thing God said to me was, "you must accept My Son as your Savior". God went on to explain other things....THEN HE WAS VERY QUIET....you know why?.....BECAUSE I HAD TO CHOSE. God moves on people in love to draw then to Jesus Christ...then He stops...you know why...because WE have to chose. In order to be saved you have to accept Jesus as Savior...and God will NEVER force your will in that area.
Click to expand...
Okay, so you chose. Heavy-duty decision. Much bigger than buying a house even. What were the pros and what were the cons? Surely you thought them out before choosing, right?

And the cons are pretty big too. Never again could I just do something because it benefited me/I wanted to. From here on in, I'd have to follow him, instead of me. This has caused problems.

This still causes problems. I had the means and opportunity to run away from home and never look back. I never needed those years of abuse received for not doing that. My grandfather did that and it worked out well for him. He went from a 13 year old runaway to a broncobuster, to a kid in WWI (big boy, so they just assumed he was old enough) to meeting a socialite in Manhattan who hooked him up with a full-ride at West Point, to a general, to working for a railroad company to being quite wealthy for that company as a Vice President. He even married into a rich family, took on the responsibilities of raising four girls who weren't his own, and had two boys.

Me? I followed what God wanted, and have suffered for it often, just like Jonah, David, Peter and Paul did. (Not as well walked out as Peter or Paul, closer to Jonah, but I'm following.)

The truth is if I had checked out the pros and cons, my "decision" would have been to hold off until 11:59:59 and hope I pulled it off just to get to heaven at the last possible second. Again. Not a choice to follow God. Simply a choice not to go to hell for what I deserved.

So, since God gave you choice, what were the pros and cons? And why in the world would you choose God? (Speaking to the person who didn't know him. Not to the person you are now. Because he really does change us -- with or without us being willing.)

And, if he doesn't force, than please explain poor Jonah! What was that all about. Clearly Jonah made his choice!
 
JIMBO43

JIMBO43

Banned
#15
Mar 7, 2016
4,678
24
0
#15
Depleted said:
I truly believe God elected me. I absolutely know I never "made a decision to invite Christ into my heart." No one ever told me I should and I wasn't in a place in my life where I would have gone okey-dokey had someone suggested such a thing. I didn't choose Jesus anymore than Jonah chose to go where God told him to go. Obviously, at some point I got (and am getting) where God wanted me to go, but I never, ever chose God.

And because of that, people keep telling me that I think God is a robot maker or a puppeteer. Let me settle at least that much and allow me the choice "robot." I am God's robot?

I don't get that. For those of you who think the two choices are "Man chooses God" or "Man is a robot," would you please explain that to me? I keep asking people who say things like that, but never get a clear answer. (Usually I get absolutely no answer.) So, if you are the kind of person who thinks either we choose God or we are robots, would you please explain to me why I am a robot?
Click to expand...
well ive herd the saying i feel like a robot if that helps ? :D
 
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oldethennew

Banned
#16
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
#16
after He calls/draws, He makes 'offers' that we just can't refuse!:eek::)
 
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Depleted

Guest
#17
#17
oldethennew said:
first of all, God The Father' leads us to Repentance'...

as it is written,
NO MAN COMES TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER DRAW HIM'...

YES, Lynn, Jesus does 'find us', we cannot possibly FIND Him...

ROM. 3:10-11.
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

after He starts 'drawing-us', we will seek Him, but we certainly cannot take
'any credit' or possibly understand such profound Love before He calls...
Click to expand...
Well, he surprised-plunked hubby and me.

Hubby was arguing with a believer to convince her God wasn't real. It worked often before, but she was a tough nut to crack and he enjoyed destroying Christians. After three weeks of fighting her (he fought, she simply opened her Bible to answer his questions and got her lady's study group to pray for him), he went home with the first concept that he would kill her. He went to bed that night thinking that. He woke up the next morning a believer.

Meanwhile, in another state and a year later, 16-year-old Lynn was watching Jesus Christ Superstar, and mentally said to God, "I'd like to know you are as real as that guy on the stage." After the musical, my aunt picked up my cousins and me. (I was living at her house at the time.) Fun ride home. One of my cousins had been expelled (not suspended again, expelled -- whole different amount of anger from a parent when expelled lol) that day at school, but didn't bother telling his mother until after he had his fun night out. So I got to listen to that fight, while my other cousins was having his own set of drastic problems. Someone on the bus offered him a chocolate candy bar, but didn't bother telling him it was Ex-Lax. He was then feeling the effects of about 12 laxatives at once. So I really wasn't able to pursue that line of thought with God that night. I was too busy trying to make sure we didn't have to pull over to let my cousin drop his drawers on the side of the road, rather than "make a mess" on the same seat I was on.

Next day? I was born again.

Both of us got the surprise-plunk from God.

God not only draws, he brings! :)
 
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oldethennew

Banned
#18
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
#18
oh yes, Lynn,

we have surely learned that our Saviour has many-ways to get
what He wants and Loves, we both bow to His Majesty/His precious Heart...
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#19
#19
maxwel said:
That isn't the correct framing of the argument.

Both sides of the argument create straw men for the other side.

The correct framing of the argument is that either YOU made the final decision to accept Christ, or GOD made the final decision for you to accept Christ...
both propositions seem to be antithetical, and so it must be one or the other, and not both.

It is further complicated in the fact that Calvinists believe we DID choose, but only AFTER god already changed us in a way which made it impossible for us to choose otherwise... thus the paradox of free will is further obfuscated, but it is still present and not at all entirely resolved.

That is the theological argument.
It has been argued and debated for centuries... with no solution yet that seems devoid of paradox.




Conclusion:

1. If the greatest minds in theology and philosophy have debated this for centuries, it's unlikely it will be resolved in a forum post on the internet.

2. Because of the paradoxical nature of the argument, and the fact it's resolution hinges upon understanding the mind of God, which is infinite... it's likely that finite beings will never produce a solution which is able to resolve all possible paradoxes.

3. Furthermore, whatever the solution is, it will necessarily be based in God's absolute truth... and it will therefore be completely independent of how we "felt" when we got saved.
Click to expand...
Nice circling to say nothing. I'm a Calvinist. (I also would be surprised if you didn't know that.) I am consistent. I don't think there is free will before or after salvation. (Free agency is a different matter.) So, really you got our side of the argument wrong. No idea if you got the other side wrong, because I'm still trying to figure out what the other side believes. I'm trying to get their logic. I'm trying to get how I'm a robot.

Your logic wasn't really. It's kind of like if I assumed E = MC^2 is wrong, simply because I don't understand it. (I don't know if it is right or wrong because I don't understand it. I suspect it is right simply because other people get it and agree with it.)

I may not get exactly how God does it, but I do understand what I believe and why, without using strawman fallacies.
 
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