I wonder where folks get the idea that Christians have to be meek and mild, silently enduring mistreatment, tolerating anything anybody else does, and timidly standing by while abusers trample all over them and other innocent victims. Since when is it a sin to speak out against evil? This is what our abusers want us to believe, and they just love throwing it back in our faces anytime we protest their behavior. They provoke us to anger, they cause untold pain and suffering, and then when we finally speak up, they smugly inform us that we're not acting like "good Christians." This is hogwash. Abusers would just love for us to back off and be quiet while they do anything they want and get away with murder.
Real Forgiveness
- Thread starter HistoryPrincess
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Satan will always try to use our righteousness against us, to get us to question our faith, and to separate us from God. This is just another one of his tricks. What kind of awesome, wonderful, All-Good God would our Father be if he actually wanted us to allow wickedness to operate unchecked in our families and our lives? This concept is preposterous, and contradicts the perfect goodness of the Lord. Our God is All-Good, and the devil is all-bad. They are diametrically opposed for all eternity. God instructs his saints to take a stand against evil and fight the good fight, not to keep silent and hide in the closet.
Forgiveness is not really about the person being forgiven. It is about the person doing the forgiving.
These people forgave the person that MURDERED their loved ones only ONE DAY EARLIER! He didn't ask for their forgiveness, nor react with gratitude when they gave it. The forgiveness was for THEIR peace of mind. NOT his.[video=youtube;Fc8yRyBll-Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc8yRyBll-Q[/video]
These people forgave the person that MURDERED their loved ones only ONE DAY EARLIER! He didn't ask for their forgiveness, nor react with gratitude when they gave it. The forgiveness was for THEIR peace of mind. NOT his.[video=youtube;Fc8yRyBll-Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc8yRyBll-Q[/video]
Nevertheless, he still needs to suffer the consequences. There's no excuse for what he did. I follow what the Bible says, not how other people react to it.
If it were me, as mad as I were, I would have prayed that he come to repentance.
Christians are not called to be doormats. Most people think the Crusades were started because Christians were bored, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Muslim Saracens were butchering and slaughtering Christians in the Middle East, and the Pope said to those still alive, "How could you sit back and watch your Christian brethren die by the sword and let these barbarians defile the Holy Land?"
If it were me, as mad as I were, I would have prayed that he come to repentance.
Christians are not called to be doormats. Most people think the Crusades were started because Christians were bored, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Muslim Saracens were butchering and slaughtering Christians in the Middle East, and the Pope said to those still alive, "How could you sit back and watch your Christian brethren die by the sword and let these barbarians defile the Holy Land?"
I agree with you.
Genuine forgiveness frees a person from sin, rather than freeing them to sin even more:
· “Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not; and come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations? Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD.” (Jeremiah 7.9-11).
We are free of sinning so that we can serve Jesus without hindrance:
· “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” (Romans 6.22).
By the way, the love of God is that we be free to keep His commandment: love our neighbor (1John 5.3)
Genuine forgiveness frees a person from sin, rather than freeing them to sin even more:
· “Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not; and come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations? Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD.” (Jeremiah 7.9-11).
We are free of sinning so that we can serve Jesus without hindrance:
· “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” (Romans 6.22).
By the way, the love of God is that we be free to keep His commandment: love our neighbor (1John 5.3)
[FONT="]I agree, sister HistoryPrincess, that we cannot be passive in the face of error, but we must not use force and violence to try to solve things (Zechariah 4: 6). The correct thing is to seek in Jesus Christ what is to be done. If we open our hearts, we will hear the voice of Him that will enable us to do exactly what He wants to do, but which we often do not give place to.[/FONT]
D
Turn this around. You ARE the abuser. You've been abusing God since your life started. And yet, God saves you. NOW what is your response?
I was rather surprised by your first post, since most the time you start a thread it is about how wrong Christianity is. I was surprised because this time you started from a Christian perspective. But, as I go along, I realize nothing has changed. You're still out to prove everyone else wrong and you right. You the abused. Everyone else must see that or they aren't seeing right.
Bupkis!
We are the abusers. God has been nothing but loving to us, and we spit on him. Now what? Are you going to seek forgiveness from the one you abused? From God? And, if you do, what will he do?
Be careful for that answer, because that puts the responsibility right back where it belongs -- your shoulders. If God forgives you, the abuser, then shouldn't you then forgive those who abuse you?
I was rather surprised by your first post, since most the time you start a thread it is about how wrong Christianity is. I was surprised because this time you started from a Christian perspective. But, as I go along, I realize nothing has changed. You're still out to prove everyone else wrong and you right. You the abused. Everyone else must see that or they aren't seeing right.
Bupkis!
We are the abusers. God has been nothing but loving to us, and we spit on him. Now what? Are you going to seek forgiveness from the one you abused? From God? And, if you do, what will he do?
Be careful for that answer, because that puts the responsibility right back where it belongs -- your shoulders. If God forgives you, the abuser, then shouldn't you then forgive those who abuse you?
You don't know me, you know nothing about me. I have been saved for five years, but I was saved ONLY because I repented. Just because I've struggled with doubt does not mean I'm not a Christian.
You don't know about the many conversations I've had with God, and how much he's comforted me.
But I don't just choose which parts of the Bible (THE WORD OF GOD), I like and chuck out the rest.
You don't know about the many conversations I've had with God, and how much he's comforted me.
But I don't just choose which parts of the Bible (THE WORD OF GOD), I like and chuck out the rest.
I'd like to quote now from someone I believe said it best.
"Does it seem harsh or un-Christian-like to you to refer to a child rapist as a pervert and a dirtbag? Or to call someone who would terrorize her own 2-year old to the point that he can't catch his breath and is gasping for air, and then laugh at his panic, a sadist and a sociopath? Or to call a mother who stays married to the pedophile who raped her child, fails to do anything to protect that child, and then tops it all off by babysitting OTHER PEOPLE'S children and leaving them alone with the pervert so he can (and did) rape THEM too, a lowlife who belongs in the cell next to him? Is calling a baby-killer a "murderer" going to hurt his feelings? Is there even a name bad enough, or should I say "descriptive" enough, to call a mother who would set up her own child to be raped repeatedly by her husband, to keep him from focusing his attention on HER? What about a father who pimps out his children to his friends for money and beer? Or the animal who has a fight with his girlfriend and then beats their 5-week old baby to death for spite - to get back at her? Or the parents who lock their child in a room for seven years, make her use a litter box for a bathroom, and starve her so badly that she weighs only 35 pounds when she finally dies?
Hey, they are what they are. I'm not here to help them feel good about themselves. Seriously, what else would you call them? What would be the politically correct way to refer to scum like this? "Slightly irresponsible"? "Child torture-challenged"? "Having low self-esteem which results in unintentional acting-out of their frustrations and beating the baby"? "Having boundary issues with sexually touching children"? "Being a little temperamental - sometimes resulting in accidentally going too far and killing a child"? Oh, please. Enough, already.
Someone who LIKES to see pain and gets their joy by making a helpless victim suffer IS a sadist. That's the definition of the word "sadist." A person who remorselessly and brutally inflicts his malice and violence on an innocent target, has absolutely no conscience or compassion about it, and in fact often then tries to use what he did to elicit sympathy for HIMSELF, IS a sociopath. That's what a sociopath IS. No, really. Look it up. Let's not disrespect the victims and minimize their experiences and pain by making up more pleasant sounding euphemisms to cover up their abusers' true natures. That sends a false message to victims and to the world - that what was done to them wasn't really so bad. But it WAS, so let's stop beating around the bush. Let's stand up and make our disapproval of and contempt for their abusers loud and clear. Tell it like it is.
Jesus certainly didn't pull any punches when he called the Pharisees just about every name there was in the book at the time. Hypocrites, snakes, brood of vipers, unclean, greedy, whitewashed tombs full of dead men's bones, blind fools, full of wickedness, sons of hell (Matthew 23: 13-33). He used the strongest possible language of his day to denounce them. He made an example of them. He spoke, not just directly to the Pharisees, but for the benefit of everyone else within earshot. Do you think the people who heard him got his point? Evil is evil. It is never un-Christian-like to tell the truth, nor is it un-Christian-like to use strong language when you tell it.
This is not a subject we need to be wishy-washy, calm, or easy-going about. We don't need to phrase it kindly lest we insult a dirtbag or offend his partners-in-crime. Using strong language to describe abusers and their enablers serves a purpose. It gets people's attention. It underscores for them just how disgusting, shameful, and, yes, EVIL, the behavior of these so-called "parents" is, and how disgusting, shameful, and EVIL the parents themselves are. It says if you protect an abuser by tolerating or minimizing abuse, then you are just as guilty as he is. It brings things that are often hushed-up or whispered about out into the open, and gives others the courage to stand up and tell it like it is, too. It makes a big deal out of something that many people would just as soon pretend isn’t happening or isn’t really that bad. It makes it UNACCEPTABLE to ACCEPT abuse. It drives home the point that abuse, and enabling abuse, is NOT "accidental." It is NOT something "they can't help." It is NOT a "mistake" or a "misunderstanding." It is DESPICABLE. It is INTENTIONAL, DELIBERATE, and supremely SELFISH. Abusers victimize others to get their own needs met, and their enablers allow it, and even encourage it, to make their own lives easier and to get their own needs met. It's a sick, twisted dynamic.
And they continue until they are exposed, or better yet, arrested. They continue until the silence is broken. They continue until we stop circumventing the issues, coddling them, walking on eggshells around them, and talking about them in nice, mild, smiley-face terms - terms that are vague, deceptive, and fail to present the TRUE picture and emphasize the gravity of it to the listener. It's not OUR fault if the truth is ugly."
"Does it seem harsh or un-Christian-like to you to refer to a child rapist as a pervert and a dirtbag? Or to call someone who would terrorize her own 2-year old to the point that he can't catch his breath and is gasping for air, and then laugh at his panic, a sadist and a sociopath? Or to call a mother who stays married to the pedophile who raped her child, fails to do anything to protect that child, and then tops it all off by babysitting OTHER PEOPLE'S children and leaving them alone with the pervert so he can (and did) rape THEM too, a lowlife who belongs in the cell next to him? Is calling a baby-killer a "murderer" going to hurt his feelings? Is there even a name bad enough, or should I say "descriptive" enough, to call a mother who would set up her own child to be raped repeatedly by her husband, to keep him from focusing his attention on HER? What about a father who pimps out his children to his friends for money and beer? Or the animal who has a fight with his girlfriend and then beats their 5-week old baby to death for spite - to get back at her? Or the parents who lock their child in a room for seven years, make her use a litter box for a bathroom, and starve her so badly that she weighs only 35 pounds when she finally dies?
Hey, they are what they are. I'm not here to help them feel good about themselves. Seriously, what else would you call them? What would be the politically correct way to refer to scum like this? "Slightly irresponsible"? "Child torture-challenged"? "Having low self-esteem which results in unintentional acting-out of their frustrations and beating the baby"? "Having boundary issues with sexually touching children"? "Being a little temperamental - sometimes resulting in accidentally going too far and killing a child"? Oh, please. Enough, already.
Someone who LIKES to see pain and gets their joy by making a helpless victim suffer IS a sadist. That's the definition of the word "sadist." A person who remorselessly and brutally inflicts his malice and violence on an innocent target, has absolutely no conscience or compassion about it, and in fact often then tries to use what he did to elicit sympathy for HIMSELF, IS a sociopath. That's what a sociopath IS. No, really. Look it up. Let's not disrespect the victims and minimize their experiences and pain by making up more pleasant sounding euphemisms to cover up their abusers' true natures. That sends a false message to victims and to the world - that what was done to them wasn't really so bad. But it WAS, so let's stop beating around the bush. Let's stand up and make our disapproval of and contempt for their abusers loud and clear. Tell it like it is.
Jesus certainly didn't pull any punches when he called the Pharisees just about every name there was in the book at the time. Hypocrites, snakes, brood of vipers, unclean, greedy, whitewashed tombs full of dead men's bones, blind fools, full of wickedness, sons of hell (Matthew 23: 13-33). He used the strongest possible language of his day to denounce them. He made an example of them. He spoke, not just directly to the Pharisees, but for the benefit of everyone else within earshot. Do you think the people who heard him got his point? Evil is evil. It is never un-Christian-like to tell the truth, nor is it un-Christian-like to use strong language when you tell it.
This is not a subject we need to be wishy-washy, calm, or easy-going about. We don't need to phrase it kindly lest we insult a dirtbag or offend his partners-in-crime. Using strong language to describe abusers and their enablers serves a purpose. It gets people's attention. It underscores for them just how disgusting, shameful, and, yes, EVIL, the behavior of these so-called "parents" is, and how disgusting, shameful, and EVIL the parents themselves are. It says if you protect an abuser by tolerating or minimizing abuse, then you are just as guilty as he is. It brings things that are often hushed-up or whispered about out into the open, and gives others the courage to stand up and tell it like it is, too. It makes a big deal out of something that many people would just as soon pretend isn’t happening or isn’t really that bad. It makes it UNACCEPTABLE to ACCEPT abuse. It drives home the point that abuse, and enabling abuse, is NOT "accidental." It is NOT something "they can't help." It is NOT a "mistake" or a "misunderstanding." It is DESPICABLE. It is INTENTIONAL, DELIBERATE, and supremely SELFISH. Abusers victimize others to get their own needs met, and their enablers allow it, and even encourage it, to make their own lives easier and to get their own needs met. It's a sick, twisted dynamic.
And they continue until they are exposed, or better yet, arrested. They continue until the silence is broken. They continue until we stop circumventing the issues, coddling them, walking on eggshells around them, and talking about them in nice, mild, smiley-face terms - terms that are vague, deceptive, and fail to present the TRUE picture and emphasize the gravity of it to the listener. It's not OUR fault if the truth is ugly."
When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul....Ezekiel 33: 8-9 KJV
Warn a divisive person once, then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned....Titus 3:10-11
Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own conceit....Proverbs 26:5 KJV
Then will I teach trangressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee....Psalm 51: 13KJV
Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.....1 Timothy 5:20NIV
BEHOLD, I GIVE YOU THE AUTHORITY TO TRAMPLE ON SERPENTS AND SCORPIONS, AND OVER ALL THE POWER OF THE ENEMY, AND NOTHING SHALL BY ANY MEANS HURT YOU. NEVERTHELESS, DO NOT REJOICE IN THIS, THAT THE SPIRITS ARE SUBJECT TO YOU, BUT RATHER REJOICE BECAUSE YOUR NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN....Luke 10:19:20 NKJV
Warn a divisive person once, then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned....Titus 3:10-11
Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own conceit....Proverbs 26:5 KJV
Then will I teach trangressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee....Psalm 51: 13KJV
Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.....1 Timothy 5:20NIV
BEHOLD, I GIVE YOU THE AUTHORITY TO TRAMPLE ON SERPENTS AND SCORPIONS, AND OVER ALL THE POWER OF THE ENEMY, AND NOTHING SHALL BY ANY MEANS HURT YOU. NEVERTHELESS, DO NOT REJOICE IN THIS, THAT THE SPIRITS ARE SUBJECT TO YOU, BUT RATHER REJOICE BECAUSE YOUR NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN....Luke 10:19:20 NKJV
FOOLS MOCK AT MAKING AMENDS FOR SIN, BUT GOODWILL IS FOUND AMONG THE UPRIGHT....Proverbs 14:9 NIV
LET THE WICKED FORSAKE HIS WAY, AND THE UNRIGHTEOUS MAN HIS THOUGHTS; AND LET HIM RETURN UNTO THE LORD, AND HE WILL HAVE MERCY UPON HIM....Isaiah 55:7 KJV
BUT BECAUSE OF YOUR STUBBORNNESS AND YOUR UNREPENTANT HEART, YOU ARE STORING UP WRATH AGAINST YOURSELF FOR THE DAY OF GOD'S WRATH, WHEN HIS RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT WILL BE REVEALED. GOD WILL GIVE TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAS DONE.....Romans 2: 5-6 NIV
LET THE WICKED FORSAKE HIS WAY, AND THE UNRIGHTEOUS MAN HIS THOUGHTS; AND LET HIM RETURN UNTO THE LORD, AND HE WILL HAVE MERCY UPON HIM....Isaiah 55:7 KJV
BUT BECAUSE OF YOUR STUBBORNNESS AND YOUR UNREPENTANT HEART, YOU ARE STORING UP WRATH AGAINST YOURSELF FOR THE DAY OF GOD'S WRATH, WHEN HIS RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT WILL BE REVEALED. GOD WILL GIVE TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAS DONE.....Romans 2: 5-6 NIV
R
@ HistoryPrincess:
You may be right about conditional forgiveness. The Bible verses about forgiving as God forgives us and about Jesus saying forgiving one's brother if he repents would certainly support conditional forgiveness. The thread has certainly caused me to think hard about the topic and it's something I'm going to look into more.
However, some points I think are worth mentioning. Forgiveness doesn't mean making sure abusers don't suffer any consequences or that forgiving means staying in an unsafe situation. It's clear in the Bible that while Jesus forgiving us of our sins means we won't be separated from God for eternity, we still need to suffer the consequences of our sin on Earth. God forgave David for his sins, calling David a man after God's own heart. But David still had to suffer for sleeping with Bathsheba (maybe even raping her) and murdering her husband. Likewise, us forgiving a criminal doesn't mean he or she doesn't have to be punished according to the laws of the land.
And David when he was being persecuted by Saul fled the land, but still respected Saul. We may love and forgive someone and yet not stay in a dangerous situation.
Certainly, as seen in God commanding the Israelites to kill neighboring nations for their sin there needs to be some retribution for sin and there is a time to kill and a time to heal. It's hard to know when is the right time. But God makes it clear that vengeance is the Lord's. If we're doing something out of a thirst for vengeance instead of protecting life, that violates God's command to not take revenge. God also commands us to be slow to anger, loving, and gentle. God loves even those He hasn't forgiven, so it must be possible to love and yet not forgive, but personally I don't know how to do so. Holding on to bitterness, in my experience, drives out love. It tends to be done to punish others but usually all it does is hurt oneself. If one holds on to anger, one may feel strong for a while, but eventually it will just exhaust the angry one.
And how are we to judge whether someone is truly repentant? Some who aren't sorry make a good show of changing. Some who truly are sorry keep relapsing. It's easy to say to an alcoholic who struggles for ages but then gives in, "If you were sorry you wouldn't drink ever again." But how many times do we sin over and over again despite repenting? We genuinely mean to change but temptation gets the better of us. If we're to forgive only after genuine repentance then that means we need to judge whether or not someone has truly repented. Obviously if someone says, "I'm sorry," while grinning and rolling his/her eyes, and refrains from lying/name-calling/stealing until he/she thinks you're not looking, he/she has not repented. But what about one who says he/she's sorry, seems to struggle, then gives in? Is he/she faking the struggle to try to give off the impression of repentance or genuinely struggling? It's not always easy to tell.
You may be right about conditional forgiveness. The Bible verses about forgiving as God forgives us and about Jesus saying forgiving one's brother if he repents would certainly support conditional forgiveness. The thread has certainly caused me to think hard about the topic and it's something I'm going to look into more.
However, some points I think are worth mentioning. Forgiveness doesn't mean making sure abusers don't suffer any consequences or that forgiving means staying in an unsafe situation. It's clear in the Bible that while Jesus forgiving us of our sins means we won't be separated from God for eternity, we still need to suffer the consequences of our sin on Earth. God forgave David for his sins, calling David a man after God's own heart. But David still had to suffer for sleeping with Bathsheba (maybe even raping her) and murdering her husband. Likewise, us forgiving a criminal doesn't mean he or she doesn't have to be punished according to the laws of the land.
And David when he was being persecuted by Saul fled the land, but still respected Saul. We may love and forgive someone and yet not stay in a dangerous situation.
Certainly, as seen in God commanding the Israelites to kill neighboring nations for their sin there needs to be some retribution for sin and there is a time to kill and a time to heal. It's hard to know when is the right time. But God makes it clear that vengeance is the Lord's. If we're doing something out of a thirst for vengeance instead of protecting life, that violates God's command to not take revenge. God also commands us to be slow to anger, loving, and gentle. God loves even those He hasn't forgiven, so it must be possible to love and yet not forgive, but personally I don't know how to do so. Holding on to bitterness, in my experience, drives out love. It tends to be done to punish others but usually all it does is hurt oneself. If one holds on to anger, one may feel strong for a while, but eventually it will just exhaust the angry one.
And how are we to judge whether someone is truly repentant? Some who aren't sorry make a good show of changing. Some who truly are sorry keep relapsing. It's easy to say to an alcoholic who struggles for ages but then gives in, "If you were sorry you wouldn't drink ever again." But how many times do we sin over and over again despite repenting? We genuinely mean to change but temptation gets the better of us. If we're to forgive only after genuine repentance then that means we need to judge whether or not someone has truly repented. Obviously if someone says, "I'm sorry," while grinning and rolling his/her eyes, and refrains from lying/name-calling/stealing until he/she thinks you're not looking, he/she has not repented. But what about one who says he/she's sorry, seems to struggle, then gives in? Is he/she faking the struggle to try to give off the impression of repentance or genuinely struggling? It's not always easy to tell.
I agree with everything you said. I'm not advocating revenge at all. I'm advocating holding people accountable for their actions.
And you're right, everyone has struggles in their life. I myself have some. But the difference is I try to come up with ways so that I won't fall into it again. I try to change. Because I'm a Christian, I realize that God had given me a heart of flesh in replacement of stone. Peter denied Jesus three times, but he genuinely repented.
God knows we're going to have struggles in this life. I'm not advocating condemnation but rebuking. There is a difference.
And you're right, everyone has struggles in their life. I myself have some. But the difference is I try to come up with ways so that I won't fall into it again. I try to change. Because I'm a Christian, I realize that God had given me a heart of flesh in replacement of stone. Peter denied Jesus three times, but he genuinely repented.
God knows we're going to have struggles in this life. I'm not advocating condemnation but rebuking. There is a difference.