PreTrib's insurmountable problem with "the first resurrection":

[MattTooFor]

Dispensationalism has insurmountable problems with both resurrections.

First resurrection:

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Eph 2:5 (NASB) even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),


Second resurrection:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You can quote all the scripture you want...but if you're misinterpreting those passages (and you are!)...all you will have accomplished is to create a contradiction in the Bible. Rev. 20:4-5 is crystal clear: The "first resurrection" is of the saints who were martyred during the Great Tribulation. The passages you are citing are not claiming to be describing a "first" resurrection...just as one of many flaws in your interpretation.

 

[MattTooFor]

What about the resurrection that occurred shortly after Christ's resurrection?

What about it? It doesn't change the scripture I cited. Rev.20:4-5 tells us the resurrection of Great Trib martyrs...is the "FIRST" resurrection.

These resurrections may have been 'transitional' in nature. There is some indication in the Bible...that at the time of Jesus' resurrection, OT saints were able to transition to a better place than the heart of the earth which is where they had stayed up to that point. Apparently, a sampling of these saints made appearances among the believers at that time...and then apparently moved on to "paradise", their 'new and improved' digs.

None of this contradicts (nor CAN IT contradict) Rev.20:4-5.

 

[MattTooFor]

The 1st resurrection happens when Christ returns. Those folks are good to go.

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with the Bible? I wasn't sure. Do you agree with the scriptures when it says the "first resurrection" is of the martyred saints of the Great Tribulation?

If there is no resurrection at the time of an alleged PreTrib rapture...then there is no PreTrib rapture. Pretty simple.

 

[MattTooFor]

I could use your same template to say Jesus was raised after the GT also,since you erroneously place"first resurrection" arbitrary at the end of the GT.

The text is declaring who they are,not when they lost their life.

No harmony,and your clue is the innumerable number. It says they came out of the GT.

News flash....that is the same group you are misplacing.

Good grief.

 

[MattTooFor]

Actually, the first resurrection is made up of phases or stages.

Pure fabrication. Zero scriptural support. Your usual MO, unfortunately. It's quite interesting to watch you go about breezily imposing doctrine after false doctrine. You show up to these discussions and just 'announce' all the conclusions you want people to have. I'm starting to really wonder about you, my man.

 

[MattTooFor]

****the First Resurrection includes both the Rapture of the Church (I Thessalonians 4:13-15) and Revelation 20:4 which are the Tribulation Martyrs...

As someone else here has already pointed out -- that would be TWO resurrections. My goodness gracious -- where is the ability to think clearly and consistently???

For one thing, you're simply ASSUMING the events described in 1Thess. are referring to an alleged "PreTrib" rapture. But that's just your assumption. Jesus has indicated the rapture occurs "AFTER the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29).

And that's the indication of Rev.20:4-5 -- If the first resurrection occurs at the end of the Great Trib (as Rev.20 clearly indicates)...that would HAVE to mean it was also the time of the rapture (referred to as the "gathering" in the Olivet Discourse). After all, how could there have been an alleged "PreTrib" rapture and yet no resurrection at that same time? The saints are raptured at the beginning of the 70th Week...yet the "first resurrection" doesn't happen until after the Great Trib??? That's not possible.

 

[MattTooFor]

It's amazing to watch all the scrambling, the crazy rationalizing, the double talking. Wow.

People, people, people --there IS NO SUCH THING as a "PreTrib" rapture. Wake up! The "darkness" is about to commence. Jesus forewarned the believers (Peter, James, John, etc.) that they were to live with an expectation of the Abomination of Desolation. I believe Jesus was correct.

If you pulled Peter aside 15 or 20 years after the fact and asked him "do you believe Jesus was correct in telling you to look out for the Abomination of Desolation?"...​how do you think Peter would have answered?

 

[Locutus]

You can quote all the scripture you want...

What else would I quote, the Bhagavad Gita?

but if you're misinterpreting those passages (and you are!)

Proof, all I have is your statement.

...all you will have accomplished is to create a contradiction in the Bible. Rev. 20:4-5 is crystal clear: The "first resurrection" is of the saints who were martyred during the Great Tribulation. The passages you are citing are not claiming to be describing a "first" resurrection...just as one of many flaws in your interpretation.

I haven't created anything, you are the one doing the "creating."

The first resurrection has nothing to do with the rising of physically dead saints, those were born again 1st century saints (the 144,000) that lived and reigned during the non literal thousand years of that century.

This is where you literalistic's get all of the book of revelation wrong.

 

[JesusRules1]

The 1st resurrection happens when Christ returns. Those folks are good to go.

The 2nd resurrection happens 1,000 yrs. after Christ returns at the end of the millennium. Those who do not make this one will go into the lake of fire, which is the death of the soul, or the 2nd death. They will be blotted out, as tho they never existed - not even so much as a memory of them.

There will be nothing that offends in heaven.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Right,there is two resurrections,one of the saints before the millennial reign,and one of the dead after the millennial reign of the people who rejected the truth,and those people who have never heard of the truth,which God is a fair and just God.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The world is judged by their works,and whosoever is not found written in the book of life was lost,which means that some people can make it to dwell in heaven,for God is a fair and a just God.

Those who rejected truth will be in trouble,but those who never heard the truth,and was never presented with the word of God to the satisfaction that they knew enough that they were accountable,can be saved and be with the saints if they meet the criteria.They cannot be with God beforehand,and be with Christ,for they never heard the truth,and accepted it,for that to happen,but they can be if they observe the universal law love God,and love people,in which impacts everybody whether they heard the truth or not,for the truth is clear to all.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

Creation testifies of a higher power,and of His attributes,which one of them is love,for He provided food,and the means to make clothing,and shelter,so people are without excuse,the universal law,love this higher power,and love people.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness.

People know right from wrong,so the world that has never heard the truth,will be judged by the universal law that impacts all mankind,love God,and love people,and by their conscience,and if they were the type that believed in a higher power that loves people,and they lived by that loving people,and if anything was amiss they asked God for forgiveness,they can dwell with the saints for then they become a part of the saints,for they obeyed the two greatest commandments love God,and love people,the universal law that all people will be judged by,whether hearing the word of God or not,whether claiming God or not.

God is a fair and just God,and will not condemn people that have not heard His word presented to them to a satisfactory condition,but they will be judged by creation testifies there is a higher power that loves people,and their conscience.

And there will be nothing that offends in heaven,but when the people that did make it that did not hear the truth concerning God's word,for creation testifies of the truth,love God,and love people,they will be cleansed by the blood of Christ,and regenerated by the Spirit,before they dwell at the New Jerusalem,which is a place where sin has never been,and sin will never be.

 

[Locutus]

Although John speaks of the 1st "resurrection" there is only one resurrection:

Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Paul only preached one, the same as Jesus did, the hope of Israel:

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(Acts 28:20 KJV) For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

The hope of Israel that Paul preached was the resurrection.

You won't find two resurrections in the old testament. John's revelation is basically an in depth view of Jesus declarations about the end of the age and the coming judgment of apostate 1st century Israel in vindication of the saints.

 

[Bladerunner]

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with the Bible? I wasn't sure. Do you agree with the scriptures when it says the "first resurrection" is of the martyred saints of the Great Tribulation?

If there is no resurrection at the time of an alleged PreTrib rapture...then there is no PreTrib rapture. Pretty simple.

uuuuuuuuH..no resurrection at the Rapture??????....'The dead will rise first....then those that are alive will be caught up'....The dead was a resurrection here. the three sets of martyred Saints are also considered in the first resurrection.

 

[MattTooFor]

uuuuuuuuH..no resurrection at the Rapture??????....

No, I said there is no resurrection at the time of an alleged PreTrib rapture. There certainly is a resurrection at the time of the rapture. That's for sure.

But the reason there is no resurrection at the time of a PreTrib rapture...is because there IS NO "PreTrib rapture".

The first resurrection occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation, according to Rev.20:4-5. So...that would also have to be the time of the rapture/"gathering". You can't have a rapture without a resurrection...nor a resurrection without a rapture!

And indeed, Matthew 24 (along with Mark 13 and Luke 21) confirms the rapture occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation...the same as indicated in Rev. 20.

Matthew 24:29, 31 -- "But immediately after the tribulation...the angels will gather together His elect from the four winds...".

 

[MattTooFor]

What else would I quote, the Bhagavad Gita?



Proof, all I have is your statement.



I haven't created anything, you are the one doing the "creating."

The first resurrection has nothing to do with the rising of physically dead saints, those were born again 1st century saints (the 144,000) that lived and reigned during the non literal thousand years of that century.

This is where you literalistic's get all of the book of revelation wrong.

You know what, bro -- you need to stop flanking discussions going on between post-tribbers and pre-tribbers. For the purposes of this particular thread, there is a certain level of pre-agreement. Pre- and post- both believe in Bible prophecy. You need to get your own thread. Flanking these discussions the way you do is just a silly 'cheap shot'. We're not setting up our comments to accommodate Preterism. It's like a Sunday School teacher trying to teach the class about Noah's ark...and there's some atheist sitting in the back row, continually cat-calling "who has proved there is a God in the first place?". You're in the wrong Sunday School class, guy.

 

[MattTooFor]

Although John speaks of the 1st "resurrection" there is only one resurrection:

Well, at least you're keeping it halfways on topic.

And...I'm sorry. Are you literally contradicting John about his indication of multiple resurrections? Can't do that, man!

Don't know what to tell you but...Rev. 20:4 and 5 refer point-blank to at least two different resurrections:

Verse 4 -- "those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus...they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Verse 5 -- "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed."

There it is, plain as day: Two resurrections.

 

[Locutus]

Well, at least you're keeping it halfways on topic.

And...I'm sorry. Are you literally contradicting John about his indication of multiple resurrections? Can't do that, man!

Don't know what to tell you but...Rev. 20:4 and 5 refer point-blank to at least two different resurrections:

Verse 4 -- "those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus...they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Verse 5 -- "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed."

There it is, plain as day: Two resurrections.

Everything I posted is on topic - failure to take note that "resurrection" can be either literal or figurative is where you are misunderstanding John's "first resurrection":

Strongs

G386 anastasis an-as'-tas-is

from G450;

a standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, genitive case or by implication, (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth).


Mat 19:28) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Strongs

G3824 paliggenesia pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah

from G3825 and G1078;

(spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act), i.e. (figuratively) spiritual renovation; specially, Messianic restoration.

KJV: regeneration.


This places the disciples "ruling/judging" in their lifetimes in a "resurrected" condition during the millennium of the 1st century.

The rest of the dead did not "live again" until this:

Act 24:15 (Young's Literal) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

Notice the timing of a correct translation. How many risings of the "dead, both of righteous and unrighteous" do you think there are?

 

[garee]

Although John speaks of the 1st "resurrection" there is only one resurrection:

Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Paul only preached one, the same as Jesus did, the hope of Israel:

All Israel is not Israel.Some remain as those who have not born again from above. Yes Israel, as the true Israelite's, the remnant... born of the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God, They are also called an inward Jew again, born again of the Spirit of Christ.. For if any man has not the Spirit of Christ they do not belong to God.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

According to the scriptures that will be the final resurrection it will occur on the "last day" before this present creation vanishes and the new heavens and earth appear. (no memory of the things of this corrupted earth and heaven it will never come to mind.)

The second and final resurrection is the same as judgment day, the last trump, for both the believer and the unbeliever.

No literal thousand days of Christ reigning in his flesh on earth. The word thousand is used as a unknown God,does not give exact numbers and is why He forbid David from doing so .Christians walk by faith as did David, not by sight after numbers .

Christ as the son of man has already come in the temporal flesh so there is no need for another demonstration of the Spirit(not seen) He is reigning in Spirit as He has from the beginning.His kingdom is not of this world and never will be

Six times to be sure we understand he uses the "last day" as the final resurrection and the "final judgment".

ohn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

ohn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It is also confirmed by the last trump. Deliverance as redemption and a new incorruptible body .The other dead never to rise to new spirit life forever more. Three things as evidence , the final trump, the second and last resurrection , and judgment time.

1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

(Acts 28:20 KJV) For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

The hope of Israel that Paul preached, was the resurrection.

You won't find two resurrections in the old testament. John's revelation is basically an in depth view of Jesus declarations about the end of the age and the coming judgment of apostate 1st century Israel in vindication of the saints.

Yes the first was at the time of reformation (the veil was rent the graves were opened) those saint were resurrected into the first the same one we enter when our spirits depart from these bodies of death that reveal we were under the wrath of God .

The second and final, both those who remain reigning with Christ and those who he awakes with the call of the seventh trump the voice of God will receive their new incorruptible bodies in the new heavens and earth .

 

[Bladerunner]

No, I said there is no resurrection at the time of an alleged PreTrib rapture. There certainly is a resurrection at the time of the rapture. That's for sure.

But the reason there is no resurrection at the time of a PreTrib rapture...is because there IS NO "PreTrib rapture".

The first resurrection occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation, according to Rev.20:4-5. So...that would also have to be the time of the rapture/"gathering". You can't have a rapture without a resurrection...nor a resurrection without a rapture!

And indeed, Matthew 24 (along with Mark 13 and Luke 21) confirms the rapture occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation...the same as indicated in Rev. 20.

Matthew 24:29, 31 -- "But immediately after the tribulation...the angels will gather together His elect from the four winds...".

MattTooFor... You are reading these scripture all wrong and there is nothing I can say that will change your mind. All I can do is watch you commit 'hara-kiri'. Is this by design?

I have tried to show you before and failed. This too may be by design.

 

[samuel23]

Jesus sure said it straight when he spoke of the person who had a single eye for God and truth only as opposed to the man with other desires. People all over the country are pushing this pre-trib rapture, it has become their god. All scripture must bow to it's eminence, and all reason and common sense must be pushed aside for the great cause of the "false pre-trib rapture". What are you people being loyal to? Certainly not God, if you were loyal to God you would seek out the words of God in context and just believe and teach them. There never was and is not now a pre-trib rapture in the New Testament...this was an invention of Satan working through John Darby...it is an end time deception.

 

[MattTooFor]

MattTooFor... You are reading these scripture all wrong and there is nothing I can say that will change your mind. All I can do is watch you commit 'hara-kiri'. Is this by design?

I have tried to show you before and failed. This too may be by design.

For Pete's sake -- I'm quoting a simple little scripture passage which is clear as a bell -- that the resurrection of the martyred saints following the Great Tribulation...is the "first resurrection".

Quoting a simple little scripture passage is to "commit hara-kiri" -- LOL?? What ARE you talking about?

So far, none of you folks have touched this passage, Rev. 20:4-5, with so much as a ten foot pole. Oh my stars.

 

[popeye]

Dispensationalism has insurmountable problems with both resurrections.

First resurrection:

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Eph 2:5 (NASB) even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),


Second resurrection:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

What about "born again"

Is a man to enter his mother's womb a second time?

The bible is not a mental book