Have you believed the false grace message?

[PeterJens]

Im gonna start calling you Beaver Cleaver. Lol. Maybe youre as innocent as you claim to be....but I'll tell you this. I know people who have a lifetime of bad habits to untangle....including myself....and I don't always respond or react to outward stimuli in a Godly manner. And I give myself grace to be imperfect....,but even then it's a struggle to forgive myself when I screw up.

You see how easy that is Pete? Aside from the beaver cleaver comment, I talked about my walk and not yours. I get the message from you that your "self examination" extends beyond yourself....as if everyone else's experience should be like yours. That's some stinkin thinkin you got right there and it doesnt lend itself to other people trusting you very much.....if at all. I know that I for one am very skeptical of your testimony because of the muddy waters you swim in. The praying publicly thing is kinda weird to be honest. There are other things but I think you got some work to do on your own character as much as anyone around here.

Thanks for this. "stinkin thinkin" - not helpful.
"everyone else's experience should be like yours" - maybe I miss understand, I tend to
talk about common experiences because I believe them to be common.

And trust. I do not want people to trust me, but to listen to Jesus.
I just share what comes to me as I write and think through things.

And I have to laugh a bit. Muddy waters. Anyone sharing anything is potentially
muddy waters because we are all sinners saved by grace.

And typing out prayers, is my way of saying I stand before the King and so should
we all. This is a public place, a place of witness and glory and praise to the King.

Now I know you do not like this very much, but God is great. Amen

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus speaks about abiding in Him throughout John chapter fifteen

(I just read it last night )

Yes, that is a different context though, He was talking about how to produce fruit, Not how to get or stay saved..

or do you think producing fruit is required to maintain eternal life?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Some seem to feel security is found in doctrines and not in Christ and His anointing.

So who are these people?

I see people who speak of having security in christ,

and having security in what they do.

I do not see people having security in doctrines..

Maybe thats you?

 

[valiant]

Jesus speaks about abiding in Him throughout John chapter fifteen

(I just read it last night )

I think he meant in 1 John 5.13 LOL

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I have never judged,, But people in here have judged,,

Thats why I asked you. Would you judge them as unsaved or not?

If you have never judged that, why are you asking me to do it...?

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by PeterJens

Some seem to feel security is found in doctrines and not in Christ and His anointing.

So who are these people?

I see people who speak of having security in christ,

and having security in what they do.

I do not see people having security in doctrines..

Maybe thats you?

The sky is blue....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay, so we were talking about a mans heart and you were asking what if someone is not yet able or ready to give up something in their life yet. You were asking, what happens THEN as far as their salvation? If God sees they aren't ready to bear more truth yet, what good would your confronting them do...? First of all, you can't see the inside, and second of all, even if you could, if they aren't ready to bear it, why WOULD you confront them?

Since when does they needing to listen determine if we conduct discipline or not? Especially on certain sins?

Then, in your second sentence, you appear to be talking about something outward? Like living with someone without being married, maybe?


So you seem to be wanting to have a discussion of how no sin will lose us our eternal life (repentance or not, ceasing it or not, abiding or not) and you often get angry at people you think feel that it's not quite as simple as you try to make it and you say they have no right to judge if another has eternal life or not.

On the other hand, you want to confront about outward sin you see in the lives of others.

So you are fighting your own self in a sense to me anyway...
But I guess if you just have concern that they might not get all the rewards they can in heaven...you could confront them that way, by saying, look, you are eternally secure, so don't take this the wrong way as if I'm saying you are in any kind of danger, because you're not, but if you keep living out of wedlock, you're going to lose some really good rewards. You still get to be with Jesus but man, don't you want to stop doing this so you can get a lot of rewards??

To me, as I've shared with you what I believe, my concern would be that maybe he hadn't received the Spirit yet and that if he had, he wasn't abiding and might die because I seemed to be seeing a not abiding at the very least. So I would have some worry for sure, but my worry would be for more than him just losing some vague reward that I don't really know what it is for sure but...

I asked if sin can cause a person who HAS eternal life to lose eternl life.

but for some reason, you want to take a simple question and try to turn it into all these different possibilities.. Maybe this, maybe that. thats almost worse than not having an answer at all.

It is a yes or no question. do you have an answer?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you have never judged that, why are you asking me to do it...?

I am sorry things are so hard for you..

I asked a simple question, I did not ask you to judge a particular individual, , I asked you if this situation occurred, what would you say..

I guess you can not answer,, I am sorry.

 

[Sirk]

Thanks for this. "stinkin thinkin" - not helpful.
"everyone else's experience should be like yours" - maybe I miss understand, I tend to
talk about common experiences because I believe them to be common.

And trust. I do not want people to trust me, but to listen to Jesus.
I just share what comes to me as I write and think through things.

And I have to laugh a bit. Muddy waters. Anyone sharing anything is potentially
muddy waters because we are all sinners saved by grace.

And typing out prayers, is my way of saying I stand before the King and so should
we all. This is a public place, a place of witness and glory and praise to the King.

Now I know you do not like this very much, but God is great. Amen

Its not that I don't like it. I feel the same. But I don't feel this odd desire to spiritualize every single stinkin thing. God also created us with our own hearts and likes and loves his children to have joy in their lives. The muddy waters comment has to do with how confusing you make things. Isn't the devil the author of confusion? And on top of all that...you kinda make yourself out to be a liar by claiming to walk in the spirit 24/7/365.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

They are one and the same,


A branch not attached will not bear fruit.. When this happens the vine dresser lifts is up and prunes it..

The branch has eternal life, Because God said it does.. Not because the branch said it did, It has nothing to do with the branch.



Work produces fruit, if you do not work, you will not produce fruit.And this happens when we abide in the vine, so the vine can give us the life blood and power to do those works.

but this has nothing to do with weather or not someone has eternal life or not.. does it?

Is eternal life based on faith or works?

Correct, it has nothing to do with the branch. The life is in the branch because the branch abides in the vine. So why would the branch want to boast that it will still live if it stops abiding in the vine?

As to your last question, faith. I have repeatedly said eternal life is in Christ, not in doing nice things. And if eternal life is in Him, then not abiding in Him will lead to death. So once again, I believe that I must abide in Him until the end and that if I don't abide in Him, I could be cut off and die. I take it seriously. I don't worry about what light I have not yet received. I worry about walking in the truth by the light I HAVE received thus far. Because the eternal life is in Him. I'm not going to claim to have finished the race while I am still in it. We are in a race of abiding (faith). I want to abide more and more and keep racing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Correct, it has nothing to do with the branch. The life is in the branch because the branch abides in the vine. So why would the branch want to boast that it will still live if it stops abiding in the vine?

Worse yet, Why would the branch want to BOAST it has eternal life BECAUSE it is abiding?

You can not boast you have eternal life if you are not working, Because you are not the one who is doing the work. Grace is a work of God, not of men.

Scripture says God holds us and will never let go. and NOTHING can take us out of his grip. That's not boasting in self. It is boasting in God..

As to your last question, faith. I have repeatedly said eternal life is in Christ, not in doing nice things. And if eternal life is in Him, then not abiding in Him will lead to death. So once again, I believe that I must abide in Him until the end and that if I don't abide in Him, I could be cut off and die. I take it seriously. I don't worry about what light I have not yet received. I worry about walking in the truth by the light I HAVE received thus far. Because the eternal life is in Him. I'm not going to claim to have finished the race while I am still in it. We are in a race of abiding (faith). I want to abide more and more and keep racing.

So then, You are saying you must save yourself by abiding in him.. (I am sorry, I can see no other way to interpret what you said. You said basically that if you stop abdiding you will lose it.. Which is the same as saying you must abide to keep it.. ie, your depending on self. to keep your self attached. Not God, to keep you attacked, and prune you when you stop producing fruit. )

Thanks but no thanks.. My bible does not say that, It says I abide in him because I have eternal life, Not to receive it.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by PeterJens

Some seem to feel security is found in doctrines and not in Christ and His anointing

what do you know about Christ and His anointing apart from through doctrines? You reveal yourself.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I want to know what you think you are better than that nasty person, and do not have sin issues in your own life.. Why do you want to judge him, and say there is no way he has eternal life, Then look at yourself and your sin and say you do? Are you better than him?

All I asked is if a person was TRULY saved (not if you thought he was saved, but a person is truly saved) then all of a sudden falls into some sin habits, is that person saved still?




Oh I see, So WE HAVE TO DO THE WORK OF ATTACHING OURSELVES?

Now your scaring me, You just claimed you have to save yourself by abiding, Say it is not so!!



so do we lose salvation because we sin? Or because we are not abiding? And what is the difference? (since that is what it appears you are saying, if not, please let me now..




So I recieve eternal life because i abide in him, Can you please show me that in scripture? Where di dJesus say whoever abides in me has eternal life, whoever does not abide in me shall not see life but the wrath of God abides in him?



oh ok, So your not going to be like the sinner? see how that sounds? Can you not see what I am tryign to show you?

Again, What gives you the right to judge?



lol.. No, the issue is who is doing the abiding? Is it god keeping and sealing us, or is it us keeping ourselves in God.

Again, this post just showed me alot. I understand now why you have been defending certain people. Unless I have totally misunderstood you..


I think you need to stop judging me and my motives, and just try to listen to what I am tryign to do, and share..

I could care less if anyone agrees with me, or have you not seen that?





Yeah it does take alot of ENERGY and WORK to abide..

Thats why abiding has NOTHING TO DO WITH ETERNAL LIFE.. it has EVERYTHING TO DO WITH FRUIT BEARING though..


so it appears if I read you right, and again it scares me,, You believe we have to earn our salvation by doing the hard work of abiding..



yeah whatever, this started 6 months ago when Peter started his hateful slander and falsly accusing people who believe we are saved by grace, It started when we started to try to show him, no peter, that is not what we believe, Then he got more nasty, and defensive.

I think you need to Look in the mirror.



I am never exhausted sharing Gods word, Are you?

This is a bit surreal...you want me to affirmatively state that a very nasty nasty and selfish person who never improves in virtue, who never grows, who by all appearances is not abiding in Christ, is saved. Then, when I won't make that judgment, you say I am judging him that he doesn't have eternal life. If the vilest, most foul man on earth kills millions of people, say...Hitler, and I refuse to make the judgement or the avowal that he has eternal life, because that is Gods' to decide, then you say I am judging him. So because I won't proclaim that a man has eternal life, but refuse to make that judgement that belongs to God, I am judging him. It's kind of bizarre. It's like you're saying a refusal to judge as to if a man is saved or not is judging him.

I guess I won't address the rest of your post right now. I don't see the point, I guess.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is a bit surreal...you want me to affirmatively state that a very nasty nasty and selfish person who never improves in virtue, who never grows, who by all appearances is not abiding in Christ, is saved.

No, I asked you if he was saved, and then turned into that person, Is he still saved.

Then, when I won't make that judgment, you say I am judging him that he doesn't have eternal life.

Well you did judge him,,

If the vilest, most foul man on earth kills millions of people, say...Hitler, and I refuse to make the judgement or the avowal that he has eternal life, because that is Gods' to decide, then you say I am judging him. So because I won't proclaim that a man has eternal life, but refuse to make that judgement that belongs to God, I am judging him. It's kind of bizarre. It's like you're saying a refusal to judge as to if a man is saved or not is judging him.

I guess I won't address the rest of your post right now. I don't see the point, I guess.

Maybe try to read what I asked, so you understand. I am asking about LOSING salvation based on what a person does or does not do. ie, is the cross enough or is it not?

I have noticed that when someone tries to judge the sin life of other people.. (like Hitler) It is usually not a good thing..

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Exactly! Here we have a decent prayer in the beginning, only to find out that the true intent of the prayer was to insult and perform the very task that he's praying to God about!

I rarely strive with this individual. I can't quite make out what his end game is. I only pray he doesn't believe his own press and instead trusts in the Gospel.

It's passive-aggression. Society teaches us it's okay. They shun us if we are outwardly aggressive but if we do it in a "who, me?? manner, it's considered okay because we can say no one caught us cheating.

I have heard brothers say about one of his posts more times than I can count, that it moved them and they really, really wanted to hit like for it but could not because of the passive aggressive dig he always throws in on the last sentence of the post.

They say:
I really wanted to like this.
I agreed with this wholeheartedly but it was ruined in the end.
I agree with all you've said here but your last sentence is troublesome.
It's all been repeated to him many times by many brothers but he still keeps doing it. At some point, you should realize if that many brothers keep saying it, that they are not without discernment. If one person said it, that would be different. But we are all brothers and sisters in he Lord and none of us is without NO discernment at all.

I hope he will listen and examine this with the Spirits' help because it's not good. I guess it's defensive, like...let me stab you here at the end since I'm pretty sure you'll do it to me...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

They abide BECAUSE He has saved them. He has GIVEN them ETERNAL LIFE. If I can lose it I have only borrowed eternal life, not been GIVEN it by GOD.



Your confusion lies in thinking that you can be saved BY GOD and then slip through His hands.



It is because you own the first that you do the second,

It is the difference, really, between looking at eternal life as something that is yours or something that is Him. Eternal life is Him. He IS the life. I don't see eternal life as a thing to grasp for my own. I see eternal life as a Person.

I know that many godly men view it as you do and that many others view it as I do.

I believe any branch that does not bear fruit is cut off. I believe that branches that bear fruit are pruned to bear even more fruit. I believe that if I abide in Him, I will not be unfruitful. So this trust is security to me, that if I continue in that trust/abiding, I DO have security and peace. If I lose that peace of security, it happens because I am not abiding somewhere, in something. So we work together on it until I am abiding again. I just don't see the need for constant arguments or demands that I state that I don't need to keep abiding in Him to keep living. I just keep abiding.

I know you don't see it the same way. I think the most major difference is that I do not think you have fallen from grace, but (I am assuming) you think I have. And I'm okay with you thinking that. It doesn't make me mad. It doesn't take my peace that you might think it. And it doesn't make me think you aren't my brother.

 

[FreeNChrist]

It is the difference, really, between looking at eternal life as something that is yours or something that is Him. Eternal life is Him. He IS the life. I don't see eternal life as a thing to grasp for my own. I see eternal life as a Person.

I know that many godly men view it as you do and that many others view it as I do.

I believe any branch that does not bear fruit is cut off. I believe that branches that bear fruit are pruned to bear even more fruit. I believe that if I abide in Him, I will not be unfruitful. So this trust is security to me, that if I continue in that trust/abiding, I DO have security and peace. If I lose that peace of security, it happens because I am not abiding somewhere, in something. So we work together on it until I am abiding again. I just don't see the need for constant arguments or demands that I state that I don't need to keep abiding in Him to keep living. I just keep abiding.

I know you don't see it the same way. I think the most major difference is that I do not think you have fallen from grace, but (I am assuming) you think I have. And I'm okay with you thinking that. It doesn't make me mad. It doesn't take my peace that you might think it. And it doesn't make me think you aren't my brother.

"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." 1 John 5:12

Do you have the Son?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

No, I asked you if he was saved, and then turned into that person, Is he still saved.



Well you did judge him,,

Maybe try to read what I asked, so you understand. I am asking about LOSING salvation based on what a person does or does not do. ie, is the cross enough or is it not?

I have noticed that when someone tries to judge the sin life of other people.. (like Hitler) It is usually not a good thing..

And I am not going to make a proclamation of he is saved, that one is not saved, that one is. That is something that makes me fearful to even THINK of doing. You can push me and push me to make proclamation on men as to whether they are saved or not, but my fear of God is greater than my fear of you, so I will not do it. You could threaten me at gunpoint and I would still fear Him and what He might do to me if I dared to proclaim a man as saved or not saved more than I'd fear a bullet. I don't even care if you say that by my refusing to make that estimation and proclamation, I am judging him. You can keep saying it. It doesn't make me mad or hurt or to lose my peace. It doesn't trouble my conscience that you think this of me. It would only trouble my conscience if I dared to do what you are strenuously trying to insist I do. I can't do it.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." 1 John 5:12

Do you have the Son?

I know you may think I don't. You may think I am quite evil. I can't help that. And it doesn't make me mad or hurt me. I have Gods' Spirit and we share a meal together often. I walk with Him. I race to abide more and more and have great peace. If you want to judge that I don't know Him or don't have His Spirit because I couldn't possibly because I believe unfruitful vines are cut off, that's okay. If you don't see any fruit of this Spirit in me, that's okay. I'm not offended. It's okay.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I know you may think I don't. You may think I am quite evil. I can't help that. And it doesn't make me mad or hurt me. I have Gods' Spirit and we share a meal together often. I walk with Him. I race to abide more and more and have great peace. If you want to judge that I don't know Him or don't have His Spirit because I couldn't possibly because I believe unfruitful vines are cut off, that's okay. If you don't see any fruit of this Spirit in me, that's okay. I'm not offended. It's okay.

It's a simple question. Do you have the Son?