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Thread: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

  1. #21
    Senior Member posthuman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan58 View Post
    There is no overwhelming evidence, just a 2 thousand year old story that people either choose to believe as the truth, or dismiss as a myth or fairy tale. The fact is, no one, believer or nonbeliever, knows anything for certain.
    many saw people raised from the dead, the lame walking, lepers healed, and many other great signs.

    this is overwhelming evidence.

    but it was not sufficient to make them believe, and acknowledge the Christ.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member posthuman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    if overwhelming evidence, if "many convincing proofs" and unassailable logical argumentation cannot certainly cause some to believe,

    . . . what does this imply about evangelism, how it should be viewed, and carried out?

    if it's not by the cleverness of the evangelist, by saying "
    the right things in the right way" or even doing the right things - even if a missionary performs miracles, it may not result in a person hearing and receiving the Christ - then how is it?
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  3. #23
    Senior Member maxwel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    Overwhelming evidence is not sufficient to convince the unbeliever?

    And?

    It's always been like this.

    This is life.

    Just relax.

    : )











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  4. #24
    Senior Member posthuman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    Its about us all. Our brains work this way, its natural to deny any information that contradicts our beliefs. Its scientifically proven.

    We must actively suppress this mechanism (if we know about it, its called self-awareness) to be able to accept anything unpleasant to us. Only few can do it often, most of us can do it sometimes, some of us dont do it ever. Its practically nonexistent in old people, very easy in children.

    yes, it's like inertia, isn't it?

    a body in motion or at rest tends to stay in that motion or at that rest, unless acted on by an outside force.

    i believe we need to be acted on by "
    an outside force" -- and that, from the inside, out

    if He has worked in you -- praise God! thank Him for that mercy, that you didn't continue on your way to destruction, but that He turned you!
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  5. #25
    Senior Member posthuman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    Quote Originally Posted by maxwel View Post
    Overwhelming evidence is not sufficient to convince the unbeliever?

    And?

    It's always been like this.

    This is life.

    Just relax.

    : )












    there is a rest that is not complacency
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  6. #26
    Senior Member posthuman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    Quote Originally Posted by JIMBO43 View Post
    Now surely some of the hardened must have been grateful once or twice do they just need reminding,,, or have they forgot the good moments of love..? or do some people just grow more bitter as they get old ?

    if you leave two pieces of metal touching each other for a long time, the atoms in the layers of the two objects that are abutting will begin to share electrons, so that an electromagnetic, frictional force bonds them together, and the longer they lay upon each other, the more force is necessary to move them apart again.

    like a wheel that continues to spin in the mud, digging a rut deeper and deeper, making it all the more difficult to finally be pulled out of it.

    still, with God, all things are possible. but with man?

    thank God, who is living, and active, and patient with us !!
    praise God, because we are not alone!
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  7. #27
    Senior Member JIMBO43's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    Quote Originally Posted by posthuman View Post

    if you leave two pieces of metal touching each other for a long time, the atoms in the layers of the two objects that are abutting will begin to share electrons, so that an electromagnetic, frictional force bonds them together, and the longer they lay upon each other, the more force is necessary to move them apart again.

    like a wheel that continues to spin in the mud, digging a rut deeper and deeper, making it all the more difficult to finally be pulled out of it.

    still, with God, all things are possible. but with man?

    thank God, who is living, and active, and patient with us !!
    praise God, because we are not alone!
    Oh amen,, anything is possible and i pray..now i think we must accept that some who come hear will be possessed by demons...

    Now if we show them the truth will we make them worse ? ... should we try another way to reach them,, or should we just try to get on there level for a while or is a possibility that we could be tainted and become that wheel in the mud... or should we hope and pray that if we hope everyday that we dont,,, then theres a good chance we wont ?....
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  8. #28
    Senior Member posthuman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    Quote Originally Posted by JIMBO43 View Post
    Oh amen,, anything is possible and i pray..now i think we must accept that some who come hear will be possessed by demons...

    Now if we show them the truth will we make them worse ? ... should we try another way to reach them,, or should we just try to get on there level for a while or is a possibility that we could be tainted and become that wheel in the mud... or should we hope and pray that if we hope everyday that we dont,,, then theres a good chance we wont ?....


    man, i don't know. i think these are hard questions.




    one of our cats, not long ago, we discovered had feline leukemia, and an autoimmune disorder. she was dying of a common cold, and we knew that nothing could be done to either preserve or prolong her life.

    but we didn't stop offering her food and water, or comforting her, or loving her. we didn't euthanize her, and we didn't stop trying to care for her whatever way we could, even knowing that ultimately nothing we did would save her, here on earth.

    i prayed ever day for her, knowing that if God willed, He could make her whole - and thanking Him for the time He gave us with her, and for using us to give her joy in this life for the short time allotted to her. He gives; He takes away - still i will praise Him

    so even if someone is a "
    lost cause" - should we treat them the same?
    depending on what we're talking about within the premise of this thread, we could be talking about a person who is spiritually dead, dying, on their way to destruction - whom only God can actually save. should we treat them as we treated this cat that we loved, serving them however we can?
    but Christ said "
    let the dead bury their dead" to the person who would put caring for the dying before following Christ.
    and our cat, she is our family, but spiritually, the dead are not our brothers and sisters, because we have been brought into the household of the living.

    compassion, we need it; we received it, and we need to display it.
    if Christ was not ashamed to touch a leper, i think we shouldn't be either - and not afraid that by doing so we will be defiled. He has made us clean, and only our feet need to be washed, right?

    is anyone is a "
    lost cause" to Him?
    to us, it seems sure. but to God? all things possible, and all things ultimately in His hand
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Desertsrose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    Quote Originally Posted by posthuman View Post


    have you met people like this?
    examples?

    how are others like this?
    how are you like this?
    how am i like this?

    what is the wise thing to do, when you see this?
    what if it's someone you love - is the wise thing the same?
    what can i do about it if you are like this?
    what can i do if i am like this?

    am i like this?
    would i even know?

    Great post! Great questions too!

    I would have to say that I resemble the question. Many of us are passionate about our beliefs even when we are 100% wrong.

    I can say though that there is a remedy for that. Or at least some thing that help me see things differently than how I saw them before.

    Here's my list:

    * Pray and ask the one who knows everything. And pray some more.
    * Remain humble
    * Don't assume I know everything and remain teachable.
    * Don't be offended when someone challenges me to prove what I believe.
    * If I don't know or haven't studied the topic, just say so and agree to discuss it later.
    * Be led of the Spirit and not my old carnal nature of which I'm to put off daily
    * Love the person - enemy or friend.
    * Realize I may be seeding truth, another may come along and water.
    * Realize God makes the truth grow. Not my convincing words.
    * It's not by might, it's not by power, but it's by the Spirit's power.
    * Realize it's my call to bring the truth and it's not my call to change the person.
    * Continue seeking truth for myself so I have it to share with others.
    * Study to show yourself approved, a workman who needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.









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    He has told you, O man, what is good;

    And what does the Lord require of you
    But to do justice, to love kindness,
    And to walk humbly with your God?
    Micah 6:8




  10. #30
    Senior Member hornetguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    s anyone is a "lost cause" to Him?
    to us, it seems sure. but to God? all things possible, and all things ultimately in His hand

    Even the disciples who were sent out were told that if people did not accept what the disciples told/taught them, that they were to shake the dust off their feet as they left them alone in their unbelief...

    I understand this to mean that there are people who will not accept Jesus' offer, and we are not to waste our efforts in a lost cause.

    This (in my opinion) does not mean that God will not work in their heart to eventually win them to Him, but it will be a result of the Spirit working in their lives, not our "preaching"....just like ALL conversions are, actually.
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  11. #31
    Senior Member maxwel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan58 View Post
    There is no overwhelming evidence, just a 2 thousand year old story that people either choose to believe as the truth, or dismiss as a myth or fairy tale. The fact is, no one, believer or nonbeliever, knows anything for certain.


    This is not correct.



    The Theory that "You Cannot Know For Certain"


    The theory you propose above stems from an attack against natural theology and historical evidence, which was primarily developed by Immanuel Kant in the 1700s, and which has since only been compounded by the relativism promulgated by postmodern philosophers... all of which has slowly seeped into our culture.

    None of these philosophical positions hold up to logical scrutiny or rules of historical evidence.

    They are fallacious arguments.

    The position that "no one can know", either from a historical or philosophical perspective, is an untenable position.
    It has been disproven.



    Overwhelming Evidence

    There are many many evidences, of all varieties, for the existence of God, the reliability of scripture, and the resurrection of Christ.

    There is both a preponderance of evidence, and a deep credibility of the evidence.

    It is, in a word, overwhelming.


    If you aren't familiar with the vastness, credibility, and variety of evidences... then you haven't studied it enough.

    The evidence is certainly there.




    Conclusion

    1. There IS overwhelming evidence for our faith.

    2. People don't believe because they WILLFULLY CHOOSE not to believe.
    Last edited by maxwel; 1 Week Ago at 02:46 PM.

  12. #32
    Senior Member JIMBO43's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    Quote Originally Posted by posthuman View Post


    man, i don't know. i think these are hard questions.




    one of our cats, not long ago, we discovered had feline leukemia, and an autoimmune disorder. she was dying of a common cold, and we knew that nothing could be done to either preserve or prolong her life.

    but we didn't stop offering her food and water, or comforting her, or loving her. we didn't euthanize her, and we didn't stop trying to care for her whatever way we could, even knowing that ultimately nothing we did would save her, here on earth.

    i prayed ever day for her, knowing that if God willed, He could make her whole - and thanking Him for the time He gave us with her, and for using us to give her joy in this life for the short time allotted to her. He gives; He takes away - still i will praise Him

    so even if someone is a "
    lost cause" - should we treat them the same?
    depending on what we're talking about within the premise of this thread, we could be talking about a person who is spiritually dead, dying, on their way to destruction - whom only God can actually save. should we treat them as we treated this cat that we loved, serving them however we can?
    but Christ said "
    let the dead bury their dead" to the person who would put caring for the dying before following Christ.
    and our cat, she is our family, but spiritually, the dead are not our brothers and sisters, because we have been brought into the household of the living.

    compassion, we need it; we received it, and we need to display it.
    if Christ was not ashamed to touch a leper, i think we shouldn't be either - and not afraid that by doing so we will be defiled. He has made us clean, and only our feet need to be washed, right?

    is anyone is a "
    lost cause" to Him?
    to us, it seems sure. but to God? all things possible, and all things ultimately in His hand
    well all i can mate is God bless ya...
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    I have often wondered at the religious leaders of Jesus time, on the one hand the evidence that Jesus was the messiah was overwhelming, while on the other hand, it seems that with all their being they hated the idea that Jesus could be the messiah. So they made a choice to reject overwhelming evidence and believe what they knew could not be true. Why do people believe what they know down deep in their heart is not true?...I suppose because they want to. The big question that I do not understand is, why do people insist on believing something that they have to know is not really so? I am not that way and I cannot relate to people who insist on believing in something when the evidence shows them to definitely be wrong. The people that do this talk is if everyone does this, not so, I would change any belief in an instant if the evidence supported a change.

  14. #34
    Senior Member Dino246's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    Quote Originally Posted by samuel23 View Post
    ... The big question that I do not understand is, why do people insist on believing something that they have to know is not really so? I am not that way and I cannot relate to people who insist on believing in something when the evidence shows them to definitely be wrong. The people that do this talk is if everyone does this, not so, I would change any belief in an instant if the evidence supported a change.
    The hard reality is that many people don't believe because they love their sin. It really has little to do with evidence.
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  15. #35
    Senior Member Utah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    Quote Originally Posted by Base12 View Post
    Yeah yeah.

    I was too lazy to make my point, which is this...

    I see the KJV as perfect, with no mistakes and no errors.

    I see all other translations as the work of Satan.

    Thus, I see the OP as being influenced by Satan.

    So what I am saying here is that neither the OP nor I will ever agree on this issue in a bazillion years, no matter how much evidence either of Us provide One another.

    No amount of hemming and hawing is going to change how I feel.

    I think that was the point He was making.

    God is greater than one human translation.

    The Holy Spirit is not confined to one translation.

    I like you, bro; I recently read a post from you stating you get a lot of flack around here and I didn't understand why. Now I'm beginning to understand. Your above post is exactly what the OP is talking about, and you have the $&@"! nerve to call what he's sharing satanic in its nature. You're not advancing the Kingdom with such narrow mindedness sprinkled with hatred.
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    Fear not, little flock, for it is God's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    an inner desire to seek 'wisdom and understanding' from Jesus is a must for any
    kind of growth, also 'compassion and Love and tolerance' are also a must in order
    to achieve any kind of Spiritual maturity...

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan58 View Post
    There is no overwhelming evidence, just a 2 thousand year old story that people either choose to believe as the truth, or dismiss as a myth or fairy tale. The fact is, no one, believer or nonbeliever, knows anything for certain.
    George Washington. Some believe he was the first president. Just a 200 year old story that people either choose to believe as truth, or dismiss as a myth or fairy tale. The fact is, no one, believer or nonbeliever, knows anything for certain.

    No one knows anything for certain. And so that isn't even certain!

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    Hi Base12, if your worse problem is that you will only read the KJV then your spiritual problems are small.
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  19. #39
    Senior Member maxwel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    Quote Originally Posted by TraySir View Post
    George Washington. Some believe he was the first president. Just a 200 year old story that people either choose to believe as truth, or dismiss as a myth or fairy tale. The fact is, no one, believer or nonbeliever, knows anything for certain.

    No one knows anything for certain. And so that isn't even certain!

    "No one knows anything for certain. And so that isn't even certain"

    The above statement isn't a humorous conundrum.

    It is a logical fallacy.
    It is a logical contradiction.
    If something is a logical contradiction, this means it cannot be true.

    The statement "no one knows anything for certain" is a non-true statement.
    It is not a clever conundrum, or a bit of standup comedy... it is a false statement.


    If a statement contradicts itself, that does not mean it is cute...

    that means it is false.


    Therefore, it is necessarily true, that you can know things for certain.




    Last edited by maxwel; 1 Week Ago at 07:55 PM.
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  20. #40
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    Default Re: Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

    Quote Originally Posted by maxwel View Post
    "No one knows anything for certain. And so that isn't even certain"

    The above statement isn't a humorous conundrum.

    It is a logical fallacy.
    It is a logical contradiction.
    If something is a logical contradiction, this means it cannot be true.

    The statement "no one knows anything for certain" is a non-true statement.
    It is not a clever conundrum, or a bit of standup comedy... it is a false statement.


    If a statement contradicts itself, that does not mean it is cute...

    that means it is false.


    Therefore, it is necessarily true, that you can know things for certain.





    Curly has a lot to teach us about the matter: Sointenly, whoop whoop
    .

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