Overwhelming Evidence is Insufficient

[posthuman]

first, i wanted to share something from the word:


[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]

“And he said,
​

‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house — for I have five brothers — in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ ​

“But Abraham said,
​

‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’​

“But he said, ​

‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ ​

“But he said to him,​

‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”​

(Luke 16:27-31)
​

case in point --

But the chief priests planned to put Lazarus to death also; because on account of him many of the Jews were going away and were believing in Jesus.
(John 12:10-11)​

why?

These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke:
​

“Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”​

For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
​

“He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.”​

These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.
(John 12:36-41)​

[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]

​

so anyway, this thread --

sometimes no matter what you show a person, no matter how cogent and sound an argument you present, no matter what perfect rationale, what convincing proofs, no matter how overwhelming the evidence . . . sometimes people will not be turned. sometimes people are hardened, set in a belief, in an idea, a preconception - too given to something to accept the truth.

have you met people like this?
examples?

how are others like this?
how are you like this?
how am i like this?

what is the wise thing to do, when you see this?
what if it's someone you love - is the wise thing the same?
what can i do about it if you are like this?
what can i do if i am like this?

am i like this?
would i even know?

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen.....the truth is the truth.........Pride keeps many from admitting error....for sure......

 

[Sirk]

first, i wanted to share something from the word:


[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]

“And he said,
​

‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house — for I have five brothers — in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ ​

“But Abraham said,
​

‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’​

“But he said, ​

‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ ​

“But he said to him,​

‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”​

(Luke 16:27-31)
​

case in point --

But the chief priests planned to put Lazarus to death also; because on account of him many of the Jews were going away and were believing in Jesus.
(John 12:10-11)​

why?

These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke:
​

“Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”​

For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
​

“He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.”​

These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.
(John 12:36-41)​

[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]

​

so anyway, this thread --

sometimes no matter what you show a person, no matter how cogent and sound an argument you present, no matter what perfect rationale, what convincing proofs, no matter how overwhelming the evidence . . . sometimes people will not be turned. sometimes people are hardened, set in a belief, in an idea, a preconception - too given to something to accept the truth.

have you met people like this?
examples?

how are others like this?
how are you like this?
how am i like this?

what is the wise thing to do, when you see this?
what if it's someone you love - is the wise thing the same?
what can i do about it if you are like this?
what can i do if i am like this?

am i like this?
would i even know?

Was just thinking about this. I have 40 years of what people say is "sound biblical doctrine" crammed in me. At 45, I have questions about things that don't add up. We shouldn't try to change anyone's mind. Not our job. Better if people get there on their own. Forced sorrow leads to death and Godly sorrow leads to life and all that. Godly sorrow is arriving there of your own volition....which is a true change of heart.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

Jesus is the absolute truth, the way and the life. Apart from Jesus, we are all deceived. Jesus is the Word that became flesh. God's word is law so we should follow. Jesus is also full of grace that saved us and enables us to live in obedience. Unbelief or pride is our greatest sin. What shall we do when there is unbelief? We should trust God more and be assured that He will deliver us from our unbelief.

 

[Base12]

how am i like this?

The fact that you didn't quote from the KJV is a good example.

But while we are on the subject of the Rich Man and the Beggar, let's examine this verse...

Luke 16:25
"But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented"

Do you see what is going on in that verse?

I mean do you REALLY see it and understand?

Remember my post on the Three Hells?

They are the same as the Three Heavens...

Microcosm
Macrocosm
Multiverse

Jesus said something so powerful in just that one verse that it is absolutely stunning to me.

Yet to you...

Is it?

I'll explain it in case you actually read this far...

Jesus is saying that the Beggar, while living on this Earth, was in HELL.

Now the tables have turned and it's the Rich Man's turn to live in Hell.

Jesus basically is insinuating that Hell and Earth are one and the same.

Born in Hell...

Psalm 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"

What was it that you said?

"sometimes no matter what you show a person, no matter how cogent and sound an argument you present, no matter what perfect rationale, what convincing proofs, no matter how overwhelming the evidence . . . sometimes people will not be turned"

 

[Locutus]

Jesus is saying that the Beggar, while living on this Earth, was in HELL.

Now the tables have turned and it's the Rich Man's turn to live in Hell.

Jesus basically is insinuating that Hell and Earth are one and the same.

Born in Hell...

Aren't you forgetting something here?

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

 

[Agricola]

The fact that you didn't quote from the KJV is a good example.

Unbelievable. Lets turn everything into King James Onlyism.

 

[Base12]

Aren't you forgetting something here?

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

That's right!

A place where Heaven and Hell exist at the same time!

They can even see and talk to one another.

Imagine that!

Good one.

 

[Base12]

Unbelievable. Lets turn everything into King James Onlyism.

Yeah yeah.

I was too lazy to make my point, which is this...

I see the KJV as perfect, with no mistakes and no errors.

I see all other translations as the work of Satan.

Thus, I see the OP as being influenced by Satan.

So what I am saying here is that neither the OP nor I will ever agree on this issue in a bazillion years, no matter how much evidence either of Us provide One another.

No amount of hemming and hawing is going to change how I feel.

I think that was the point He was making.

 

[Sirk]

Yeah yeah.

I was too lazy to make my point, which is this...

I see the KJV as perfect, with no mistakes and no errors.

I see all other translations as the work of Satan.

Thus, I see the OP as being influenced by Satan.

So what I am saying here is that neither the OP nor I will ever agree on this issue in a bazillion years, no matter how much evidence either of Us provide One another.

No amount of hemming and hawing is going to change how I feel.

I think that was the point He was making.

I guess thou arteth settith in thy mind.

 

[tanakh]

The early Church didnt have a Black leather bound copy of the KJV Bible. How in the world did they manage?

 

[Dan58]

There is no overwhelming evidence, just a 2 thousand year old story that people either choose to believe as the truth, or dismiss as a myth or fairy tale. The fact is, no one, believer or nonbeliever, knows anything for certain.

 

[trofimus]

sometimes no matter what you show a person, no matter how cogent and sound an argument you present, no matter what perfect rationale, what convincing proofs, no matter how overwhelming the evidence . . . sometimes people will not be turned. sometimes people are hardened, set in a belief, in an idea, a preconception - too given to something to accept the truth.

have you met people like this?
examples?

Its about us all. Our brains work this way, its natural to deny any information that contradicts our beliefs. Its scientifically proven.

We must actively suppress this mechanism (if we know about it, its called self-awareness) to be able to accept anything unpleasant to us. Only few can do it often, most of us can do it sometimes, some of us dont do it ever. Its practically nonexistent in old people, very easy in children.

 

[Expositor]

I see the KJV as perfect, with no mistakes and no errors.

I see all other translations as the work of Satan.

No amount of hemming and hawing is going to change how I feel.

This is exactly what this post is about.

 

[MadebyHim]

[SUP]37 [/SUP]And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which he wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]And the covenant that I have made with you ye shall not forget; neither shall ye fear other gods.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]But the Lord your God ye shall fear; and he shall deliver you out of the hand of all your enemies.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Howbeit they did not hearken, but they did after their former manner.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]So these nations feared the Lord, and served their graven images, both their children, and their children's children: as did their fathers, so do they unto this day. 2 Kings 17:37-41

 

[Dino246]

As a data analyst, I work with "facts". I put that in quotes, because what is a "fact" today may be superseded by new "facts" tomorrow. Such is not the case with Jesus Christ. While I continue to learn, and my understanding of Him will, short of heaven, be incomplete, the facts (no quotes) that I have are sufficient.

I'm also curious, and when I want to learn about something, I go to multiple sources. I have changed my mind on a few issues as I have studied, and there are areas where I have yet to study and come to a firm conclusion. I have observed that some people hold to certain views almost in spite of facts presented (KJV-onlyism being one salient example). Some people can't get around their own circular reasoning. Or, for reasons which have nothing to do with data or bits of information, some people are convinced of certain views.

Such views may be founded in personal experiences. It is usually difficult to argue someone out of an experience, even if they have misinterpreted it by ignorance or deception. You may need to investigate the experience in order to identify the sticking point, and even then, you may not be able to help the person out of their position. In some cases, especially in the case of brainwashing, a person may have so many interwoven arguments that dealing with them is akin to playing Whack-a-Mole. It doesn't mean they are correct by any means, but their error is a web of many threads, and they will hang on to any of them for dear life, lest they be forced admit to having been either wrong or deceived. Yet, every one of us was wrong before we accepted Christ.

 

[hornetguy]

The fact that you didn't quote from the KJV is a good example.

But while we are on the subject of the Rich Man and the Beggar, let's examine this verse...

Luke 16:25
"But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented"

Do you see what is going on in that verse?

I mean do you REALLY see it and understand?

Remember my post on the Three Hells?

They are the same as the Three Heavens...

Microcosm
Macrocosm
Multiverse

Jesus said something so powerful in just that one verse that it is absolutely stunning to me.

Yet to you...

Is it?

I'll explain it in case you actually read this far...

Jesus is saying that the Beggar, while living on this Earth, was in HELL.

Now the tables have turned and it's the Rich Man's turn to live in Hell.

Jesus basically is insinuating that Hell and Earth are one and the same.

Born in Hell...

Psalm 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"

What was it that you said?

"sometimes no matter what you show a person, no matter how cogent and sound an argument you present, no matter what perfect rationale, what convincing proofs, no matter how overwhelming the evidence . . . sometimes people will not be turned"

Personally, while interesting, I think your conclusion about Hell and earth being the same is wrong.

And, no, I won't be turned, because you haven't presented overwhelming evidence... your argument isn't sound.

 

[hornetguy]

I see the KJV as perfect, with no mistakes and no errors.

And, there is one of your big mistakes.

 

[notuptome]

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Men choose to deny the gospel and Jesus Christ because they have no desire for light and truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[JIMBO43]

first, i wanted to share something from the word:


[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]

“And he said,
​

‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house — for I have five brothers — in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ ​

“But Abraham said,
​

‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’​

“But he said, ​

‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ ​

“But he said to him,​

‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”​

(Luke 16:27-31)
​

case in point --

But the chief priests planned to put Lazarus to death also; because on account of him many of the Jews were going away and were believing in Jesus.
(John 12:10-11)​

why?

These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke:
​

“Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”​

For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
​

“He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.”​

These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.
(John 12:36-41)​

[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]

​

so anyway, this thread --

sometimes no matter what you show a person, no matter how cogent and sound an argument you present, no matter what perfect rationale, what convincing proofs, no matter how overwhelming the evidence . . . sometimes people will not be turned. sometimes people are hardened, set in a belief, in an idea, a preconception - too given to something to accept the truth.

have you met people like this?
examples?

how are others like this?
how are you like this?
how am i like this?

what is the wise thing to do, when you see this?
what if it's someone you love - is the wise thing the same?
what can i do about it if you are like this?
what can i do if i am like this?

am i like this?
would i even know?

Mate this will only make the hardened more harder because when the hardened heart gets really tough,, then i feal theres only one place there going,,, now at this poin the hardened say!!!!!!!!! so what like satan probably did.. or maybe the hardened might think they need to practice kindness... and they would probably answer back saying something like i dont need to practice works of kindness.

Maybe the hardened can come back but its going to take a golden Child for that.. And his followers..to maybe soften them up with some love..

Now surely some of the hardened must have been grateful once or twice do they just need reminding,,, or have they forgot the good moments of love..? or do some people just grow more bitter as they get old ?