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Thread: Abraham ate with Jesus.

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_B View Post
    My Brother you are the only person I've read anything that agreed that Genesis 18 was a manifestation of the Triune God, I talked to Dr. Morey the author of a book on the Trinity and he said that it wasn't a manifestation of the Triune God. I've looked in many books as well and not found any to agree with this. But, why would God let speak angels speak when the Lord was being addressed, it clearly says and they said, they being the three men that appeared to Abram. There's no way that it's Jesus, Micheal and Gabriel as many have tried to tell me and I have read in some books.

    You don't think Melchizedek was a real person, since Hebrews says that Jesus is "after the order of Melchizedek" five times and Hebrews 7:15 "This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek" When speaking of Jesus.
    This is a real question (as compared to the beginning of an argument.)

    Where do people get this information about which angel was where when? As in... how did Michael and Gabriel even come up?
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    Whew! Good thing you're here to do the disagreeing part. It was feeling uncomfortable for so much agreement.

    (Yes. Sarcasm. Did it show?)
    Yes Lynn it definitely showed. It's the only type of post you do so I'd be shocked if you ever contributed in a positive way. You may post a lot but you say very little.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    The Abrahamic Covenant is not the same as the new covenant, it is a price of the new covenant. Messiah was foretold in the old Covenant but it did not happen until Jesus was born and brought in the New Covenant.
    Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness.
    FromGalatiansintheNewTestament.

    Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    prove-all and notmyown like this.
    From the Mouth of our Lord, Jesus Christ, or do you call Him Yeshua?
    Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.


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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Just an observation, the major impetus to apostasy began even during the time of Pul with the shunning of our Hebrew past.

    Hebrew may be translated as from across the river. We all cross Jordan when we die. We cross Jordan to be with our Father in the Promised land.

    Praise God, or if you prefer, praise Yahweh, amen.
    From the Mouth of our Lord, Jesus Christ, or do you call Him Yeshua?
    Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.


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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaumeJ View Post
    From Galatians in the New Testament.
    Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    From Galatians in the New Testament in Modern English.

    What’s more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would make the Gentiles right in his sight because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, “All nations will be blessed through you.”So all who put their faith in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received because of his faith.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_B View Post
    My Brother you are the only person I've read anything that agreed that Genesis 18 was a manifestation of the Triune God, I talked to Dr. Morey the author of a book on the Trinity and he said that it wasn't a manifestation of the Triune God. I've looked in many books as well and not found any to agree with this. But, why would God let speak angels speak when the Lord was being addressed, it clearly says and they said, they being the three men that appeared to Abram. There's no way that it's Jesus, Micheal and Gabriel as many have tried to tell me and I have read in some books.

    You don't think Melchizedek was a real person, since Hebrews says that Jesus is "after the order of Melchizedek" five times and Hebrews 7:15 "This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek" When speaking of Jesus.
    Hey johnny, Dr. Morey is right in that the appearance of the angle of the Lord at Genesis 18 is "NOT" a manifiestation of the Triune God. (And btw, I do know who Dr. Morey is?) It's a manifestation of the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. And as far as the many books you looked at there are a diversity of opinions as to the identity of the angel of the Lord. Besides, anybody can state a poistion but you have to prove your position and to prove your position your way better off using the Bible.

    So, let's do just that johnny. First of all remember that towerwatchman posted in the thread that God the Father cannot be physically seen. This is even according to Jesus Christ Himself at John 5:37 and John 6:46. Now look at Genesis 17:1-2, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me and be blameless. vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."

    Now go back to Genesis 16 starting at vs7 we read, "Now the angel of the Lord found her/Hagar by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur." Now skipping down to vs9-10, The the angel of the Lord said to her, "Return to your mistress/Sarah, and submit yourself to her authority. vs10, Moreover, the angel of the Lord said to her, I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they shall be too many to count."

    So my question to you johnny is the following? Would you say the angel of the Lord who appeared to Hagar the same being who appeared to Abram at Genesis 17:1,2 and the same being who again appeared to Abraham at Genesis 18:1-8? And please, whatever "yes or no" answer you choose please tell me on what basis you chose your answser?

    IN HIM,
    bluto

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaumeJ View Post
    Just an observation, the major impetus to apostasy began even during the time of Pul with the shunning of our Hebrew past.

    Hebrew may be translated as from across the river. We all cross Jordan when we die. We cross Jordan to be with our Father in the Promised land.

    Praise God, or if you prefer, praise Yahweh, amen.
    Well as Jesus said in John 1:18 that no man has seen God then you have a false impression of what happens when you die. Jesus show in a parabolic reference in Luke 16 where people go when they die and it is not heaven.
    Our destiny is to be reunited with Christ at his return and live with him forever in the New Jerusalem with God.
    That is another spiritual place it is an actual physical place on the new Earth.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    Hey johnny, Dr. Morey is right in that the appearance of the angle of the Lord at Genesis 18 is "NOT" a manifiestation of the Triune God. (And btw, I do know who Dr. Morey is?) It's a manifestation of the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. And as far as the many books you looked at there are a diversity of opinions as to the identity of the angel of the Lord. Besides, anybody can state a poistion but you have to prove your position and to prove your position your way better off using the Bible.
    The scripture in Gen 18:1-2 reads as follows;

    The Lord appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent during the hottest time of the day. Abraham looked up and saw three men standing across from him. When he saw them he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

    These men were a manifestation of the Godhead not Jesus. The Word became flesh, John 1:14, and that flesh was Jesus Christ.

    V5; “All right,” they replied, “you may do as you say.”
    V9;
    Then they asked him, “Where is Sarah your wife?”

    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    The scripture in Gen 18:1-2 reads as follows;

    The Lord appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent during the hottest time of the day. Abraham looked up and saw three men standing across from him. When he saw them he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

    These men were a manifestation of the Godhead not Jesus. The Word became flesh, John 1:14, and that flesh was Jesus Christ.

    V5; “All right,” they replied, “you may do as you say.”
    V9;
    Then they asked him, “Where is Sarah your wife?”

    No stan, your reading into the Scriptures when you said, "These men were a manifestation of the Godhead not Jesus. The Word became flesh, John 1:14, and that flesh was Jesus Christ." Read the whole context of Genesis 18 and at vs13 please identify who the Lord is in the verse? It says, "And the Lord said to Abraham, Why did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I indeed bear a child when I am so old?" And look at vs14, "Is anything too difficult for the Lord? At the appointed tiem I WILL RETURN TO YOU, at this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son."

    At vs14 the Lord God is speaking in the third person which He often does in the Old Testament. Now, after vs14 we see Abraham talking to the Lord God about Sodom reglarding how many righteous men can be found in the city will You/God destroy the whole city? At vs32 Abraham says, "Oh may the Lord not be angry etc. Now look at vs33, "And as soon as He/God finished speaking to Abraham th3e Lord departed, and Abraham returned to his place." So the Lord departed Abraham just the Lord departed Abraham at Genesis 17:22, "And when He/God finished talking with him/Abraham, God went up from Abraham.

    Finally, look at Genesis 19;1, "NOW THE TWO ANGELS came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting etc. Did you see that stan? It was the Lord God in Genesis 17 and 18 who departed Abraham when He/God finished talking with him and then the two angels that were with the Lord God at Genesis 18 (who were in the form of men) departed to Sodom to destroy the city just as the Lord God instructed them.

    So now stan, suppose you ask me how I know that the angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ? To help you out can you please do a little homework and can you tell me what is the Hebrew word for angel in the Old Testament? Trust me, this will all become crystal clear before I'm done with this whole issue. And one last thing? Why did you not address the other parts of my post to johnny?

    IN HIM,
    bluto

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zmouth View Post
    Did Abraham eat with Jesus or did Abraham eat Jesus?

    John 13:18
    John 6:57-58
    Please explain.

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    No stan, your reading into the Scriptures when you said, "These men were a manifestation of the Godhead not Jesus. The Word became flesh, John 1:14, and that flesh was Jesus Christ." Read the whole context of Genesis 18 and at vs13 please identify who the Lord is in the verse? It says, "And the Lord said to Abraham, Why did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I indeed bear a child when I am so old?" And look at vs14, "Is anything too difficult for the Lord? At the appointed tiem I WILL RETURN TO YOU, at this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son."
    The scripture speaks for itself and reads exactly how it reads. The only way one can read scripture is in context and who do you think spoke in verse 13? Who do you think spoke in verse 10? The context of this section of scripture is that the LORD visited Abraham. He didn't come as another real voice he came represented by three men who represented the trinity.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    At vs14 the Lord God is speaking in the third person which He often does in the Old Testament. Now, after vs14 we see Abraham talking to the Lord God about Sodom reglarding how many righteous men can be found in the city will You/God destroy the whole city? At vs32 Abraham says, "Oh may the Lord not be angry etc. Now look at vs33, "And as soon as He/God finished speaking to Abraham th3e Lord departed, and Abraham returned to his place." So the Lord departed Abraham just the Lord departed Abraham at Genesis 17:22, "And when He/God finished talking with him/Abraham, God went up from Abraham.
    Well I think your problem is you don't know or properly understand Elizabethan English. You should try to read a Modern English version that makes it clear. Sounds to me like you have preconceived ideas that you don't want to let go of? What you've actually said here in this paragraph only supports the fact that the three men were God speaking to Abraham and even clearer when the scripture says; "and one of them said".
    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    Finally, look at Genesis 19;1, "NOW THE TWO ANGELS came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting etc. Did you see that stan? It was the Lord God in Genesis 17 and 18 who departed Abraham when He/God finished talking with him and then the two angels that were with the Lord God at Genesis 18 (who were in the form of men) departed to Sodom to destroy the city just as the Lord God instructed them.
    Verse 22 clearly shows that the Lord stayed with Abraham so obviously at that point the manifestations of those two men were Angels, also not something unusual. There are many instances of one man being a physical manifestation of God in the Old Testament and there are few such as Genesis 18 where three men represent the trinity. Of course you have to ask yourself if verses 20-21 in chapter 18 contradicts verse 1 in chapter 19 or is there an explanation for it? V26 in Gen 1 is the same type of exchange between the trinity as verses 17-19 in Gen 18.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    So now stan, suppose you ask me how I know that the angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ? To help you out can you please do a little homework and can you tell me what is the Hebrew word for angel in the Old Testament? Trust me, this will all become crystal clear before I'm done with this whole issue. And one last thing? Why did you not address the other parts of my post to johnny?
    I think that instead of playing condescending Mind Games you ought to just make your point. As I've already refuted you I obviously don't trust your opinion and whether or not you're able to support it with facts remains to be seen. So far you have not been successful. I addressed what I saw was wrong. You are better off corroborating your stated opinion rather than worry about stuff I haven't addressed.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    First of all I am not playing "mind games" and in fact I take the Bible seriously on whatever the issue may be. None of this is a game to me. Furthermore, of all the topics in the Bible I know about this one (the angel of the Lord) and the Trinity doctrine more than any of them because I have studied them for well over 50 years now. I do not have any problems with the text of Scripture, the "CONTEXT" of Scripture, the looking up of words in their original language and how the same word can mean different things depending on the context. And in that vain your telling me I don't "understand Elizabethan English?"

    The Bible was not written in Elizabethan English but was written in Hebrew and Greek. The Hebrew word for "angel" is the word "malak." That word can mean a real angel like Michael or Gabriel but it can mean simply a "messenger," depending on the context. For example at Malachi 3:1 it says, "Behold, I am going to send My "angel/malak," and he will clear the way before Me, and the Lord whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the "angel/malak" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming, says the Lord of hosts."

    So stan, who is the "angel/malak" that prepared the way of the Lord? Here's a big hint for you? Please read Matthew 3:1-3 and you will discover that the angel/malak is none other than John the Baptist who prepared the way for the Lord God who is Jesus Christ. So stan, is John the Baptist an angel? No, remember the word "malak" can also mean messenger. In other words John the Baptist was a messenger of the Lord who annouced His coming. Even Malachi the prophet's name is from "malak" and means messenger.

    And getting bact the Malachi 3:1 who do you think is the "angel/malak/messenger" of the covenant? And where in the Old Testament was that covenant made with Abraham? Check out Genesis 12:3, Genesis 15:18, Genesis 16:7-10, Genesis 17:1,2, Genesis 18 where the Lord God confirms His covenant at vs13,14 and "ESPECIALLY" Genesis 22.

    What you fail to understand stan is the fact that God the Father HAS NO SEPARATE MANIFESTATION FROM THE SON. The Son is the ONLY manifestation and revelation of the Father. What is know of the Father is revealed through the Son. To see the Son is to see the essence of the Father. Please read John 1:1,18; John 10:30, John 12:45; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3 and especially 1 Timothy 3:16, "And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness; He/God was revealed in the flesh, was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory."

    So stan, do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only manifestation and revelation of God the Father because that is what the Scriputres say and teach? Now I'm going to throw you a "curve" and ask you if you know in Hebrew what is a "shilach?" It has to do with what you said about the men in Genesis 18 are representing God. In other words, the Jews call it the law of agnecy. This "shilach/agent" acts as someone who is authorized by a principal to act on behalf of that principal. To put it another way from the Talmud is that "a man's agent is as himself," i.e., that a man is bound by the acts of his duly representing a principal.

    So what you said to me is that the men in Genesis 18 were acting or representing God (who is the principal) just like angels at times act on God's behalf. Now, you should know I have heard that reasoning thousands of times but what people forget is the fact that there are certain things a "shilach/agent" cannot do on behalf of a principal or in this case God. Let's see if you can figure it out by reading Genesis 22:11-18? The balls in your court stan.

    IN HIM,
    bluto

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    First of all I am not playing "mind games" and in fact I take the Bible seriously on whatever the issue may be. None of this is a game to me. Furthermore, of all the topics in the Bible I know about this one (the angel of the Lord) and the Trinity doctrine more than any of them because I have studied them for well over 50 years now. I do not have any problems with the text of Scripture, the "CONTEXT" of Scripture, the looking up of words in their original language and how the same word can mean different things depending on the context. And in that vain your telling me I don't "understand Elizabethan English?"

    The Bible was not written in Elizabethan English but was written in Hebrew and Greek. The Hebrew word for "angel" is the word "malak." That word can mean a real angel like Michael or Gabriel but it can mean simply a "messenger," depending on the context. For example at Malachi 3:1 it says, "Behold, I am going to send My "angel/malak," and he will clear the way before Me, and the Lord whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the "angel/malak" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming, says the Lord of hosts."

    So stan, who is the "angel/malak" that prepared the way of the Lord? Here's a big hint for you? Please read Matthew 3:1-3 and you will discover that the angel/malak is none other than John the Baptist who prepared the way for the Lord God who is Jesus Christ. So stan, is John the Baptist an angel? No, remember the word "malak" can also mean messenger. In other words John the Baptist was a messenger of the Lord who annouced His coming. Even Malachi the prophet's name is from "malak" and means messenger.

    And getting bact the Malachi 3:1 who do you think is the "angel/malak/messenger" of the covenant? And where in the Old Testament was that covenant made with Abraham? Check out Genesis 12:3, Genesis 15:18, Genesis 16:7-10, Genesis 17:1,2, Genesis 18 where the Lord God confirms His covenant at vs13,14 and "ESPECIALLY" Genesis 22.

    What you fail to understand stan is the fact that God the Father HAS NO SEPARATE MANIFESTATION FROM THE SON. The Son is the ONLY manifestation and revelation of the Father. What is know of the Father is revealed through the Son. To see the Son is to see the essence of the Father. Please read John 1:1,18; John 10:30, John 12:45; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3 and especially 1 Timothy 3:16, "And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness; He/God was revealed in the flesh, was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory."

    So stan, do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only manifestation and revelation of God the Father because that is what the Scriputres say and teach? Now I'm going to throw you a "curve" and ask you if you know in Hebrew what is a "shilach?" It has to do with what you said about the men in Genesis 18 are representing God. In other words, the Jews call it the law of agnecy. This "shilach/agent" acts as someone who is authorized by a principal to act on behalf of that principal. To put it another way from the Talmud is that "a man's agent is as himself," i.e., that a man is bound by the acts of his duly representing a principal.

    So what you said to me is that the men in Genesis 18 were acting or representing God (who is the principal) just like angels at times act on God's behalf. Now, you should know I have heard that reasoning thousands of times but what people forget is the fact that there are certain things a "shilach/agent" cannot do on behalf of a principal or in this case God. Let's see if you can figure it out by reading Genesis 22:11-18? The balls in your court stan.

    IN HIM,
    bluto
    I didn't ask for your qualifications I asked you to exegete the scripture you say support your opinion. As far as translations are concerned I said Elizabethan English because you're quoting the King James version. All you're doing above is deflecting to other issues rather than dealing with the issue I brought up. Try not answering questions with questions. What Angels never did in the Old Testament was allow people to bow down and worship them, it was forbidden. If Moses was really inspired to write Genesis then God would have made it plain to him if they were angels and he didn't use the word angels He used the word LORD, which connotes God.

    יְהוָ֔ה (yehôvâh) is translated as LORD in most English Bible's and as v1 in Gen 18 says "appeared", from the Hebrew וַיֵּרָ֤א (râ'âh), then obviously it was a physical manifestation of the trinity. I suggest you deal with this issue rather than trying to deflect to others and basically muddying up the waters.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    The scripture in Gen 18:1-2 reads as follows;

    The Lord appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent during the hottest time of the day. Abraham looked up and saw three men standing across from him. When he saw them he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

    These men were a manifestation of the Godhead not Jesus. The Word became flesh, John 1:14, and that flesh was Jesus Christ.

    V5; “All right,” they replied, “you may do as you say.”
    V9;
    Then they asked him, “Where is Sarah your wife?”

    According to Jesus no has seen or heard the Father.
    Jn 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
    Jn 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
    The Holy Spirit is a spirit, and does not manifest Himself.

    Genesis chapter 18 Note vs 1,13,17,22 and 33 “Lord” translates from “YHWH”. According to Moses YHWH appeared, ate, drank and conversed with Abraham.

    Note 8:22 ‘The men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord’.
    How many men went towards Sodom? = 19:1 ‘Now the two angels came to Sodom…”

    Notice 8:22 after the men left [how many?= 2} Abraham stood before the Lord. [One person.] Lord in vs 22 translates from YHWH.

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by towerwatchman View Post
    According to Jesus no has seen or heard the Father.
    Jn 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
    Jn 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
    The Holy Spirit is a spirit, and does not manifest Himself.

    Genesis chapter 18 Note vs 1,13,17,22 and 33 “Lord” translates from “YHWH”. According to Moses YHWH appeared, ate, drank and conversed with Abraham.

    Note 8:22 ‘The men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord’.
    How many men went towards Sodom? = 19:1 ‘Now the two angels came to Sodom…”

    Notice 8:22 after the men left [how many?= 2} Abraham stood before the Lord. [One person.] Lord in vs 22 translates from YHWH.
    Jesus was talking about the actual essence of God in Heaven. Even when Moses saw the burning bush it was the presence of God in a different form and when God actually had to appear in his spiritual form he hid Moses in the cleft of a rock and walk by so Moses didn't see him.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    I didn't ask for your qualifications I asked you to exegete the scripture you say support your opinion. As far as translations are concerned I said Elizabethan English because you're quoting the King James version. All you're doing above is deflecting to other issues rather than dealing with the issue I brought up. Try not answering questions with questions. What Angels never did in the Old Testament was allow people to bow down and worship them, it was forbidden. If Moses was really inspired to write Genesis then God would have made it plain to him if they were angels and he didn't use the word angels He used the word LORD, which connotes God.

    יְהוָ֔ה (yehôvâh) is translated as LORD in most English Bible's and as v1 in Gen 18 says "appeared", from the Hebrew וַיֵּרָ֤א (râ'âh), then obviously it was a physical manifestation of the trinity. I suggest you deal with this issue rather than trying to deflect to others and basically muddying up the waters.
    I was not bringing up my qualifications per se as in being prideful but rather letting you know how long I have studied the Bible to show I know what I'm talking about. Secondly, I never use the KJB but rather the NASB which shows you can't even tell what Bible I'm using. And what issue am I suppose to be "deflecting?"

    And what does this statement of yours have to do with anything? "What Angels never did in the Old Testament was allow people to bow down and worship them, it was forbidden." The point I was bringing out which went completely over you head is the angel of the Lord is "NOT" an angel. Like I said, the angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ. At Genesis 16 the angel of the Lord multiply's Hagar's descendants at vs10. Look at what she concludes at vs13, "Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou are a Goid who sees; for she said, "Have I even remained alive after seeing Him?" That is after seeing God in the person of Jesus Christ.

    And what is all this stuff you said suppose to mean? " What Angels never did in the Old Testament was allow people to bow down and worship them, it was forbidden. If Moses was really inspired to write Genesis then God would have made it plain to him if they were angels and he didn't use the word angels He used the word LORD, which connotes God.

    יְהוָ֔ה (yehôvâh) is translated as LORD in most English Bible's and as v1 in Gen 18 says "appeared", from the Hebrew וַיֵּרָ֤א (râ'âh), then obviously it was a physical manifestation of the trinity. I suggest you deal with this issue rather than trying to deflect to others and basically muddying up the waters."

    Your the one that brought up the fact that Abraham at Genesis 16 saw three men and one of the men was NOT Jesus. And I went to great lenghts proving to you in my other post that it was God (in the person of Jesus Christ as the angel of the Lord) that appeared to Abraham and the other two men were actual angels who took the form of men that went and destroyed Sodom. Those facts are all clear.

    Then to make matters even worse you said, "then obviously it was a physical manifestation of the trinity." No it's not because as I have explained to you and so has towerwatchman God the Father cannot be seen and neither can the Holy Spirit, so how can there be physical manifestation of the Trinity? You are sure one mixed up person because you don't know your Bible.

    IN HIM,
    bluto

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    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    Jesus was talking about the actual essence of God in Heaven. Even when Moses saw the burning bush it was the presence of God in a different form and when God actually had to appear in his spiritual form he hid Moses in the cleft of a rock and walk by so Moses didn't see him.
    And look at the text/context of Exodus 3:2, "And the angel of the Lord appeared to him/Moses in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked and behold the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed." Now look at vs4, "When the Lord saw that he/Moses aside to look, GOD CALLED TO HIM FROM THE MIDST OF THE BUSH," So who called out to Moses from the midst of the bush stan? Was it the angel of the Lord or was it God the Father?

    Also, who is saying the following at vs6? "He said also, "I am the God of your father; the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Who is that stand, the angel of the Lord or God the Father? And btw, do you see a "Trinity" in these verses as well stan?

    IN HIM,
    bluto

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    I was not bringing up my qualifications per se as in being prideful but rather letting you know how long I have studied the Bible to show I know what I'm talking about. Secondly, I never use the KJB but rather the NASB which shows you can't even tell what Bible I'm using. And what issue am I suppose to be "deflecting?"

    And what does this statement of yours have to do with anything? "What Angels never did in the Old Testament was allow people to bow down and worship them, it was forbidden." The point I was bringing out which went completely over you head is the angel of the Lord is "NOT" an angel. Like I said, the angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ. At Genesis 16 the angel of the Lord multiply's Hagar's descendants at vs10. Look at what she concludes at vs13, "Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou are a Goid who sees; for she said, "Have I even remained alive after seeing Him?" That is after seeing God in the person of Jesus Christ.

    And what is all this stuff you said suppose to mean? " What Angels never did in the Old Testament was allow people to bow down and worship them, it was forbidden. If Moses was really inspired to write Genesis then God would have made it plain to him if they were angels and he didn't use the word angels He used the word LORD, which connotes God.

    יְהוָ֔ה (yehôvâh) is translated as LORD in most English Bible's and as v1 in Gen 18 says "appeared", from the Hebrew וַיֵּרָ֤א (râ'âh), then obviously it was a physical manifestation of the trinity. I suggest you deal with this issue rather than trying to deflect to others and basically muddying up the waters."

    Your the one that brought up the fact that Abraham at Genesis 16 saw three men and one of the men was NOT Jesus. And I went to great lenghts proving to you in my other post that it was God (in the person of Jesus Christ as the angel of the Lord) that appeared to Abraham and the other two men were actual angels who took the form of men that went and destroyed Sodom. Those facts are all clear.

    Then to make matters even worse you said, "then obviously it was a physical manifestation of the trinity." No it's not because as I have explained to you and so has towerwatchman God the Father cannot be seen and neither can the Holy Spirit, so how can there be physical manifestation of the Trinity? You are sure one mixed up person because you don't know your Bible.

    IN HIM,
    bluto
    There is no such thing as a pre incarnate Jesus because Jesus was born God incarnate and as John 1:14 tells us he was incarnated with The Word who IS God. That is basic Christianity 101 and if you don't understand that then there's nothing much we have to discuss because you won't understand anything. Apparently you deviated from Orthodox Christianity a long time ago.
    You can't even quote me properly so I'm not surprised you can't quote the Bible properly. As God created angels then him appearing as an angel would be in a different form than he is in normally. That indeed could be an angel or it could be a human being. Bottom line is the essence of God has never been seen by anybody.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    He also walked in the garden.

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    There is no such thing as a pre incarnate Jesus because Jesus was born God incarnate and as John 1:14 tells us he was incarnated with The Word who IS God. That is basic Christianity 101 and if you don't understand that then there's nothing much we have to discuss because you won't understand anything. Apparently you deviated from Orthodox Christianity a long time ago.
    You can't even quote me properly so I'm not surprised you can't quote the Bible properly. As God created angels then him appearing as an angel would be in a different form than he is in normally. That indeed could be an angel or it could be a human being. Bottom line is the essence of God has never been seen by anybody.
    Well there is your big problem stan? You deny the Son of God is eternal especially when you say, "Jesus was born God incarnate and as John 1:14 tells us he was incarnated with The Word who IS God." No, Jesus was already God before He was born as a man. And at John 1:1 it says, "The Word/Logos was WITH God, and the Word/Logos was God."

    To be "with" somebody is to be other than yourself. This is why the Trinity teaches there is ONE God who consist of three distinct persons. Not three beings, not three gods and not three separate beings or persons either. Colossians 1:13-16 as well as Hebrews 1:2 shows Jesus Christ preexisted His incarnation as a man. In fact John 1:3 states, ALL things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." Then there is Isaiah 9:6 which shows Jesus Christ existed before He incarnated as a man.

    The Bible teaches that the Father SENT the Son at John 20:21, Galatians 4:4-6, 1 John 4:10 and 1 John 4:14. And look at Micah 5:2, "But as for you, Bethlehem Epherathaah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be the ruler of Israel, HIS GOINGS FORTH ARE FROM LONG AGO, FROM THE DAYS OF ETERNITY."

    Lastly, and of course no one can see Gods essence or nature and that's why it's been explained to you that to see Jesus is to see the essence or the nature of God. What do you think John 10:30 means? You need to study your Bible a lot more stan.

    IN HIM,
    bluto

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