Abraham ate with Jesus.

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towerwatchman

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
21
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One cannot teach those who don't want to be taught, but I asked you a simple question and instead of answering it you asked me another question which to me shows that people don't want to learn. It's called cognitive dissonance.
Suggest you come down from that high horse you think you are on. You are in no position to consider yourself a teacher. Teach what? You cannot defend your post.
 
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StanJ

Guest
Suggest you come down from that high horse you think you are on. You are in no position to consider yourself a teacher. Teach what? You cannot defend your post.
Giving your username I'm not the one who thinks he's higher above everyone.Try making some actual contributions rather than denigrating others. Like I said before one has to be able to be taught.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,247
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Where EXACTLY does the NT state this? Hebrews is referring to Jesus as The Word incarnate, so yes The Word in him did exactly what John 1:3 says He did.
John one says that Jesus was with God in the beginning... and also
that all things were made by Him. Jesus preexisted His incarnation.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

More verses on Jesus being the agent of creation:


The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.… Col 1:15-17

Hebrews 1:2“In these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.”
 

towerwatchman

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
21
1
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Originally Posted by StanJ

Where EXACTLY does the NT state this? Hebrews is referring to Jesus as The Word incarnate, so yes The Word in him did exactly what John 1:3 says He did.

Let's give this another try.Did Jesus exist as a free will, cognitive individual separate from the Father, before the incarnation?
 
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StanJ

Guest
John one says that Jesus was with God in the beginning... and also
that all things were made by Him. Jesus preexisted His incarnation.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

More verses on Jesus being the agent of creation:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.… Col 1:15-17

Hebrews 1:2“In these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.”
John 1 says THE WORD, not Jesus. John 1 says The Word created the universe, not Jesus. John 1 one is talking about creation or even before creation. Hebrews 1:2 is referring to Jesus after Jesus was born incarnated with The Word. Two different time frames.
You keep asserting that Jesus pre-existed his Incarnation but you haven't shown where the Bible says that.
What is in the Son, is The Word, who created Heaven and Earth. Being first born OVER all creation does not mean being the firstborn of creation. Do you know what being the only begotten Son of God means? What does Matthew 1:20 say?
 
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StanJ

Guest
Let's give this another try. Did Jesus exist as a free will, cognitive individual separate from the Father, before the incarnation?
What does Matthew 1:20 say? When did the incarnation happen?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,247
25,713
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John 1 says THE WORD, not Jesus. John 1 says The Word created the universe, not Jesus. John 1 one is talking about creation or even before creation. Hebrews 1:2 is referring to Jesus after Jesus was born incarnated with The Word. Two different time frames.
You keep asserting that Jesus pre-existed his Incarnation but you haven't shown where the Bible says that.
What is in the Son, is The Word, who created Heaven and Earth. Being first born OVER all creation does not mean being the firstborn of creation. Do you know what being the only begotten Son of God means? What does Matthew 1:20 say?
Scripture PLAINLY states that Jesus as the WORD preexisted His incarnation, created all that is, took on flesh, and walked the world. See John 1:1-14 for proof. This is the same Word that was with God in the beginning. If you deny that, there is little point in trying to hash it out with you further. There are none so blind and all that...

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us
 
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StanJ

Guest
Scripture PLAINLY states that Jesus as the WORD preexisted His incarnation, created all that is, took on flesh, and walked the world. See John 1:1-14 for proof. This is the same Word that was with God in the beginning. If you deny that, there is little point in trying to hash it out with you further. There are none so blind and all that...
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us
I just showed you what John 1 says and it does not call The Word Jesus nor does it say that Jesus existed in the beginning with God. You're using a predispositional bias to interpret the word and not the other way around.
John 1:14 is WHEN Jesus was born, not before. What is it about the chronological order of things that has you confused?
I asked a simple question, show me a scripture that says Jesus existed before he was born? So far you have been unable to comply which is not surprising because I know for a fact that there isn't any scripture that says such a thing.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,195
6,508
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Just a question, are you one of those who believe when someone wants to call Jesus by His Hebrew name, they are being Hebrew Roots? Or being too Jewish?

You see words evolve, even change, not only words but also names. Actually when a person calls Jesus, Yeshua, it is still not translated to Hebrew, nor is Jesus actually a translation.

Yeshua may be translated as the Anointed of Yah(weh).

Does the name, Yahweh, molest you? It just means self-existing, and loosely translated to E¨nglish for so many centuries, Iam or I am that I ah, which says to me, God will manifest Himself in any manner that pleases Him and suits His purpose.

So, in the name of Yeshua, I believe it is important to know the etymology of the Good News, and of Gospel befor promouning on its meaning. It is obvious some here do not know the meaning of the word, etymology, yet they put themselves forth as linguists........strange, I did study linguistics at the University of Illinois C_U campus, and here I am being taught linguistics by people not knowing the workings of etymology in language, curious, yupper.......it be just that.

God bless the childre, for they are the ones given to understand teh mysteries...........sI think it just may be based on faith, ?
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,023
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I just showed you what John 1 says and it does not call The Word Jesus nor does it say that Jesus existed in the beginning with God. You're using a predispositional bias to interpret the word and not the other way around.
John 1:14 is WHEN Jesus was born, not before. What is it about the chronological order of things that has you confused?
I asked a simple question, show me a scripture that says Jesus existed before he was born? So far you have been unable to comply which is not surprising because I know for a fact that there isn't any scripture that says such a thing.
You know stan, you really have a big problem understanding Scripture. As I told you earlier you keep contradicting yourself and the Scriptures just like you did here when you said in your very first sentence, "I just showed you what John 1 says and it does not call The Word Jesus nor does it say that Jesus existed in the beginning with God."

If the "The Word" is not Jesus then who or what is "The Word" that was "WITH" God in the beginning? I ask you before if you think "The Word" is the spoken word of God and you did not say, so again who is "The Word" that was with God and is God according to John 1:1? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,023
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God appeared to Abraham twice in human form,once as Melchizedek,king of Salem,and priest of the most high God,who was without descent,having not mother or father,no beginning of days,or end of life,and once with 2 of His angels in human form,where He talked to Abraham about him having a child at his old age,and talked to him about Sodom and Gomorrah,where the 2 angels went.

But these were temporary manifestations,bodies not conceived by a woman,but God created a body out of the dust of the earth to appear before Abraham,and then the body went back to the dust.

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,made of a woman,made under the law,and the only begotten Son of God,the only human being to ever be conceived by the Spirit,and a permanent manifestation of God,for the throne in heaven is the throne of God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

The 2 manifestations of God to Abraham was not Jesus,but God in a temporary manifestation to Abraham.Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,and the first time Jesus was seen on earth,for Jesus did not get His start of being God and human until God gave Him life in the womb of Mary.
Actually jesusrules Jesus Christ as the angel of the Lord appeared to Abraham more than two times in the Old Testament and yes it was a manifestation of God in the person of Jesus Christ. He appeared to Abraham at Genesis 17, Genesis 18 and Genesis 22. Please check out Genesis 22. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,247
25,713
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I just showed you what John 1 says and it does not call The Word Jesus nor does it say that Jesus existed in the beginning with God. You're using a predispositional bias to interpret the word and not the other way around.
John 1:14 is WHEN Jesus was born, not before. What is it about the chronological order of things that has you confused?
I asked a simple question, show me a scripture that says Jesus existed before he was born? So far you have been unable to comply which is not surprising because I know for a fact that there isn't any scripture that says such a thing.
I just showed you that John one proves Jesus preexisted His incarnation as the Word of God which is explicitly named as God and took on flesh to walk the world. What part of that do you not understand? All of it, it seems. I knew it would be pointless. You want to pretend that the Word being born as flesh is when Jesus had a beginning but that is a ridiculous assertion when Jesus as the Word of God created all that is, which is also explicitly stated. You and I will never see eye to eye on this issue and you are going to get yourself banned for pushing your Jesus-is-not-God cultism. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. Rev 19:13 Aren't you the person who says that God is not alive? God is the author and giver of life but you claim He does not have life Himself?
 
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StanJ

Guest
You know stan, you really have a big problem understanding Scripture. As I told you earlier you keep contradicting yourself and the Scriptures just like you did here when you said in your very first sentence, "I just showed you what John 1 says and it does not call The Word Jesus nor does it say that Jesus existed in the beginning with God."

If the "The Word" is not Jesus then who or what is "The Word" that was "WITH" God in the beginning? I ask you before if you think "The Word" is the spoken word of God and you did not say, so again who is "The Word" that was with God and is God according to John 1:1?
Actually the reverse is true, and I understand scripture very well, it is you that doesn't seem to understand scripture and I keep on asking you where in John 1 does it say that The Word is Jesus and you can't answer that so you deflect to other irrelevant issues. Again where in John 1:1 does it save The Word is Jesus? If you understood the Trinity then you would understand that The Word that was with God in the beginning was a part of God that created everything by words. It wasn't Jesus and nowhere in the Bible does it say it was Jesus. Why can't you answer the simple questions I've directed at you instead of asking more questions and equivocating about your answers? Jesus BECAME The Word incarnate when he was born. Birth is the beginning of our existence so Jesus couldn't possibly exist before he was born. Before Jesus was born the word existed as God and after Jesus was born the word existed in a hypostatic union with Jesus and always has since then. If you can't or won't see the demarcation then you're obviously blind to the truth. I can't heal the blind, only Jesus can.
 
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StanJ

Guest
I just showed you that John one proves Jesus preexisted His incarnation as the Word of God which is explicitly named as God and took on flesh to walk the world. What part of that do you not understand? All of it, it seems. I knew it would be pointless. You want to pretend that the Word being born as flesh is when Jesus had a beginning but that is a ridiculous assertion when Jesus as the Word of God created all that is, which is also explicitly stated. You and I will never see eye to eye on this issue and you are going to get yourself banned for pushing your Jesus-is-not-God cultism. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. Rev 19:13 Aren't you the person who says that God is not alive? God is the author and giver of life but you claim He does not have life Himself?
And I refuted your assertions so again where in John 1 does it say Jesus is the word? Where does it say that Jesus pre-existed his incarnation as the word? What the Bible says is that true Jesus the world was created and that connotes The Word that is in Jesus that created the world. Jesus did not become The Word until he was born. Before that, The Word existed without Jesus, and was with God and was God. Exactly what John 1:1 states.
Jesus is indeed God so you saying that he is not, or that I think he is not, demonstrates how bad your understanding of scripture really is. Yes, in Rev 19:13, Jesus is called The Word, because he became The Word incarnate when he he was born. You seem to have a really big problem understanding the chronological order of scripture? Revelation is the final Prophecies of Jesus. First the word was in the beginning with God and was God then the word became Jesus and in the end Jesus will be called the Lamb of God and the word. Apparently your problem is you don't understand linear thinking? You can't take events in the Bible and use them out of time because they are all set in time. The only one who is not subject to time is God as he created time.
God is the creator of life and he gives life. He can't be life if he created life he also is not an angel as you suppose he is he is greater then angels and greater than life and the fact that your limited human mind has to have boundaries to understand God is your problem not mine period i willingly accept that God is a mystery and is unfathomable to the human mind. I don't put them in a box and I know about him as much as his word says about him but I don't limit him to how the Bible describes him because it would be impossible for all the books in the universe as John 20 stated to contain all the knowledge about Jesus and God.
 
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StanJ

Guest
It is a simple yes or no question. Are you capable of that?
When you start to answer my questions I will reciprocate but as long as you answer my questions with questions I'll answer your questions with questions. I've been doing this a lot longer than you have and I know all the games that people play.
 
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StanJ

Guest
Actually jesus rules Jesus Christ as the angel of the Lord appeared to Abraham more than two times in the Old Testament and yes it was a manifestation of God in the person of Jesus Christ. He appeared to Abraham at Genesis 17, Genesis 18 and Genesis 22. Please check out Genesis 22.
WHERE actually and exactly does the scripture say "Jesus is the Angel of the Lord".
How exactly could Jesus be the angel of the Lord if you believe Hebrews 2:7 & 9?
Apparently your understanding of the Bible contradicts itself when we all know that the Bible does not contradict itself.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,023
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Ok stan, let me try another way to get through that thick skull of yours. You just ask me, "Where in John 1:1 say that the Word is Jesus? For now I will not address that question and it's not because I can't address it but I want to make a point that might open your eyes?

You said the following: "The Word is exactly who John says he is and brings his gospel right back to Genesis 1:1. The second person of the Trinity in the OT, now in the Glorified Body of Jesus the Christ. Something the Triune Godhead had planned before Genesis 1:1. Gen 1:3 depicts Him in the first 2 words."

Where in the the Bible does it say God is a Trinity or the Godhead is Triune? Let's say for the sake of argument somebody just ask you to tell them what is this trinity business? How would you explain to them since the word trinity is not even in the Bible? In other words, prove the trinity is true?

I mean think about it stan, your asking me where it says at John 1:1 that the Word is Jesus Christ? So I'm asking you where it says anywhere in the Bible the trinity is not only taught but how do you know it's true? In fact, since I'm such a nice guy I'm going to give you a hint by asking (and you can look this up if you don't know) how do you prove what is known as "Implicit" truth and "Implied" truth? What say you? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
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StanJ

Guest
Ok stan, let me try another way to get through that thick skull of yours. You just ask me, "Where in John 1:1 say that the Word is Jesus? For now I will not address that question and it's not because I can't address it but I want to make a point that might open your eyes?

You said the following: "The Word is exactly who John says he is and brings his gospel right back to Genesis 1:1. The second person of the Trinity in the OT, now in the Glorified Body of Jesus the Christ. Something the Triune Godhead had planned before Genesis 1:1. Gen 1:3 depicts Him in the first 2 words."

Where in the the Bible does it say God is a Trinity or the Godhead is Triune? Let's say for the sake of argument somebody just ask you to tell them what is this trinity business? How would you explain to them since the word trinity is not even in the Bible? In other words, prove the trinity is true?

I mean think about it stan, your asking me where it says at John 1:1 that the Word is Jesus Christ? So I'm asking you where it says anywhere in the Bible the trinity is not only taught but how do you know it's true? In fact, since I'm such a nice guy I'm going to give you a hint by asking (and you can look this up if you don't know) how do you prove what is known as "Implicit" truth and "Implied" truth? What say you? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
More avoidance...Please answer the question. If you also don't believe in the Trinity then you've got a lot more problems than I initially surmised!
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,023
505
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More avoidance...Please answer the question. If you also don't believe in the Trinity then you've got a lot more problems than I initially surmised!
You said this, "If you understood the Trinity then you would understand that The Word that was with God in the beginning was a part of God that created everything by words." No stan, I don't understand the trinity, can you please explain it to me? And your right, I do have a lot of problems especially in understanding the trinty, again, can you help me out by explaing it to me?

In Him,
bluto
pda