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Thread: Predestination Versus Freewill

  1. #21
    Sully
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by RickyZ View Post
    If I may diverge a minute, what is a Neitherist?
    Neither Calvinist nor Arminianist. I think both camps hold some truth, but not the whole truth imo.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member RickyZ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Gotcha. I kinda figured that was it but didn't want to assume.

    I always looked at the issue of predestination/foreknowledge like this: Suppose I'm standing on a mountain overlooking a valley. A single train track runs across the valley. I see two trains enter the valley from opposite ends, heading towards each other. I say "if those trains don't stop they will run into each other". The trains don't stop and do eventually run into each other.

    Does the fact that I knew before it happened that the trains would collide then mean that I caused or predestined them to collide? Or did I just foresee their destiny based upon the observation of what they were going to do?
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    Truth is available only to those who have the courage to question whatever they think they know.

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  3. #23
    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Sully View Post
    Neither Calvinist nor Arminianist. I think both camps hold some truth, but not the whole truth imo.
    I am a neitherist also!
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    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

  4. #24
    Sully
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    And if you foresaw the trains far enough in advance, maybe you build a fork in the tracks? Maybe the trains collide and it affects the passengers but not the end plan of humanity to a large extent. God being emotionally attached to each passenger knows their eternal state whether saved or unsaved, maybe He intervenes on behalf of one or the other to oversleep and miss the train altogether.
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Sully View Post
    You can't make this argument without a lot of critical assumptions. The irony is there is not enough information to enlighten an accurate rock solid answer, so all you can do is reach a certain point and assume the rest. Can God create an object so heavy that He cannot lift it? Sure, but He is too wise to do so unless He wants a permanent monument. Either way He is right.
    Actually, that's an old fallacy. God's not an old man with a beard, so the laws of being human don't apply to him. He created them. God and rock is just an atheistic excuse to ignore God. A way to talk about God without actually dealing with God. It has absolutely nothing to do with God.
    Lynn

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    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt23 View Post
    I will take into consideration all people's eye sight next time. I am sorry. Part 1 was taken out because it was too offensive to a particular denomination, so I left it out.
    In which case, shouldn't you attribute your source? I thought this was your theory being discussed.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Adstar View Post
    It is not predestination vs freewill..

    It's Gods predestination derived from His foreknowledge of our freewill response to His will..
    That's what Arminians want you to believe anyway.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Sully View Post
    Neither Calvinist nor Arminianist. I think both camps hold some truth, but not the whole truth imo.
    Obvious question then, what are they missing that you know?
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

  9. #29
    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Or the train engineers could see the oncoming train and each take as extreme measures as possible to prevent a crash. The free will debate gets polluted with all manner of foolishness (not calling the train crash analogy foolish at all, it was a good one ) when people try to minimize elements of our precarious positions if and when we are living aside from the will of God. Personally, I prefer the term self will The fall of all creation was premised upon Adam and Eve allowing their pride of life to override their loyalty to God, Whom they knew personally. They chose self will over God's will. Yes, God allowed it. Does God want bots or people who freely choose Him? Some say we are already the former. I say God desires we be the latter.
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    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

  10. #30
    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    The new creation will be populated with people who have chosen God.
    Then there will be no more sorrow nor crying nor pain nor suffering.
    Sin will be removed from the equation and remembered no more.
    Death, which is the consequence of sin, shall be abolished.
    Come Lord Jesus!
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    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

  11. #31
    Sully
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    Obvious question then, what are they missing that you know?
    I don't normally answer a question with another question, but trying to answer yours will turn into an all day debate. I will say that in my mind, neither side has a slam dunk argument based on the fact that imo there is not sufficient knowledge on the subject. It would be a shortcut to ask you what is it about Calvinism that without a doubt untangles the answer of predestination?

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt23 View Post
    When I mention control over freewill I am talking about direct control rather secondary control, foreknowledge, or perfect knowledge of people.


    God has direct control over all people in that He uses His perfect knowledge of people to manoeuvre their will according to His good pleasure.

    All men are naturally doomed. He chooses whom He will save from among them.


    God is in control of all creation
    Man’s will is part of creation
    God is in control of man’s will
    True as seen above.

    God’s power is viewed as the origin of all behaviors, thoughts, and actions of man.


    Give your Scriptures. This is not so.


    People's thoughts were pre-programmed by God before humans were made.
    That is incorrect. God does not 'programme' people. He alters their thinking with their cooperation


    The evil and good thoughts and actions of humanity were orchestrated by God.
    This is where you go wrong

    His omnipotence is therefore sustained. But what about His Omnibenevolence?
    God is not omnibenevolent in the sense of finally setting His love on all men. He chooses whom He will love as opposed to those to whom
    He shows benevolence,.

    Part 2: On the definition of God’s all powerful trait. Does this all powerfulness come from the conscious of God or does all powerfulness control everything without God’s consideration on the matter?
    Neither. God is consciously all powerful and His all powerfulness is by controlled by His consciousness of each matter.

    All-powerfulness seems to be made out to be almost as self-governing entity rather than a trait of God.
    Only to those who are ignorant,

    Someone might say: "traits are without consideration such as green eye color". Wrong. Jesus had the ability to stop or temporarily disable His own omniscience therefore why could he not do the same over human free will.
    God the Son temporarily kept His omniscience from affecting His manward side. His human free will WAS His manward side. Thus on the human side it was affected along with His omniscience,

    When Jesus mentioned when the end would come He said in Matthew 24:36 , "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father,” meaning God has the ability to disable or put a veil over His own omniscience, why not His own omnipotence.
    He veiled both His omniscience and His omnipotence on His manward side except as He obtained them from the Father,.


    Part 3: If God's omnipotence means He has control over everything, then He also has control over our wills as well and therefore when a person commits murder or rape we are then subscribing murder and rape as an action of God indirectly.


    God controls our free will as described in 1. He is not therefore responsible for our subsidiary actions meanwhile.
    Last edited by valiant; March 19th, 2017 at 01:58 PM.

  13. #33
    Sully
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    The free will debate gets polluted with all manner of foolishness (not calling the train crash analogy foolish at all, it was a good one ) when people try to minimize elements of our precarious positions if and when we are living aside from the will of God.
    Totally agree. People also assume our specific positions are all the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    Personally, I prefer the term self will The fall of all creation was premised upon Adam and Eve allowing their pride of life to override their loyalty to God, Whom they knew personally. They chose self will over God's will. Yes, God allowed it. Does God want bots or people who freely choose Him? Some say we are already the former. I say God desires we be the latter.
    True, why give Adam and Eve boundaries and a choice whether to honor them if they were unable to do so?
    Last edited by Sully; March 19th, 2017 at 02:08 PM.
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  14. #34
    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Sully View Post
    Totally agree. People also assume our specific positions are all the same.
    There seems to be a great deal of variance I do not necessarily see it as a bad thing, even though some people point at our differences and say it is not possible for us to all be talking about the same God (that is a favorite ploy of atheists)... but of course, they are wrong The fact that we each have a unique relationship with God should be well understood from our own human relationships, whereby even within the confines of a single family with shared values and group experiences and the same parents etc, siblings will have different views and experiences and beliefs about their parents

    True, why give Adam and Eve boundaries and a choice whether to honor them if they did not have a choice to do so?
    Exactly, not to mention that there are so many "whosoever may" in Scriptures; we are told to choose whom we will serve; all are invited to the wedding supper, Christ died for all and invites each person to respond personally to the good news of the kingdom

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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    There seems to be a great deal of variance I do not necessarily see it as a bad thing, even though some people point at our differences and say it is not possible for us to all be talking about the same God (that is a favorite ploy of atheists)... but of course, they are wrong The fact that we each have a unique relationship with God should be well understood from our own human relationships, whereby even within the confines of a single family with shared values and group experiences and the same parents etc, siblings will have different views and experiences and beliefs about their parents



    True we are all struggling to understand God.


    Exactly, not to mention that there are so many "whosoever may" in Scriptures; we are told to choose whom we will serve; all are invited to the wedding supper, Christ died for all and invites each person to respond personally to the good news of the kingdom

    But in the end all depends on God's choosing us before the foundation of the world (EPH 1.3-4).

  16. #36
    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Thank you for the rep, JaumeJ


    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Sully View Post
    I don't normally answer a question with another question, but trying to answer yours will turn into an all day debate. I will say that in my mind, neither side has a slam dunk argument based on the fact that imo there is not sufficient knowledge on the subject. It would be a shortcut to ask you what is it about Calvinism that without a doubt untangles the answer of predestination?
    I don't look to untangle. God is infinite and perfect. I'm not. Instead I look to see the all-I'm-ever-going-to-get-out-of-understanding-God-for-now for answers.

    TULIP fits that bill. Do I understand how it works? Of course not, but that goes back to "God is infinite and perfect. I'm not." TULIP fits into the parameters of the whole Bible. Arminius missed most of what the Bible says.

    I can go so far as to tell you about where I get my views on Predestination though. Romans 1 - 11.

    Soooo, what is missing? What am I getting wrong? What are the Arminians getting wrong? If you're a neitherist, surely you can define either what we're getting right and wrong.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Sully View Post
    True, why give Adam and Eve boundaries and a choice whether to honor them if they were unable to do so?
    Adam and Eve had something that no one since them have had -- they were created without sinful nature. They did have choice to go with their nature. We got sin nature from their "free will."
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    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

  19. #39
    Sully
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    I don't look to untangle. God is infinite and perfect. I'm not. Instead I look to see the all-I'm-ever-going-to-get-out-of-understanding-God-for-now for answers.

    TULIP fits that bill. Do I understand how it works? Of course not, but that goes back to "God is infinite and perfect. I'm not." TULIP fits into the parameters of the whole Bible. Arminius missed most of what the Bible says.

    I can go so far as to tell you about where I get my views on Predestination though. Romans 1 - 11.

    Soooo, what is missing? What am I getting wrong? What are the Arminians getting wrong? If you're a neitherist, surely you can define either what we're getting right and wrong.
    Fair enough, you've found your answers in TULIP. But you're asking me to assess the pros and cons of both Calvinism and Arminianism. I've taken that nature walk before and although it's quite scenic, the destination (no pun) sucks. I thought it might be easier to pole vault to the sucky destination by having you state how TULIP fits the bill specifically. That way we can fast forward to the part where neither of us convinces the other.

  20. #40
    Senior Member RickyZ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    TULIP meaning..?

    (I must need another cup of coffee )

    Truth is available only to those who have the courage to question whatever they think they know.

    It's hard to learn anything when you always feel the need to be the expert.

    Mark 7:34 “Ephphatha,” that is, “Be opened.”

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