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Thread: Predestination Versus Freewill

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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Sully View Post
    I don't normally answer a question with another question, but trying to answer yours will turn into an all day debate. I will say that in my mind, neither side has a slam dunk argument based on the fact that imo there is not sufficient knowledge on the subject. It would be a shortcut to ask you what is it about Calvinism that without a doubt untangles the answer of predestination?
    I totally disagree. Nothing about the Tulip doctrine is sound and I really don't know anything about arminianism because I've never studied it. My beliefs are based on sound biblical exegesis.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    I totally disagree. Nothing about the Tulip doctrine is sound and I really don't know anything about arminianism because I've never studied it. My beliefs are based on sound biblical exegesis.
    and so say all of us LOL
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by RickyZ View Post
    TULIP meaning..?

    (I must need another cup of coffee )
    Lol, you might need a Venti.
    RickyZ likes this.

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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    If we do not have free will to be able to choose salvation,then God's kingdom is not true love.

    But we cannot get to that truth unless God intercedes in our life,which what will you do in the day of visitation.

    Many are called,but few are chosen,which God knows the heart condition,and if people are sincere in wanting truth,God will work with them to bring them to the truth,which not many noble,not many mighty,not many wise according to the flesh,are called,because of their heart condition.Many are called,but few chosen,because not all people go as far as they need in the search for truth.

    No man comes to the Son unless the Father draws them,and no person calls Jesus Lord in the right perspective except by the Holy Spirit,and we did not choose God,but He choose us.

    For although we have free will to decide to believe the truth,God gets the glory,for without Him interceding in our life we would of never fully understood the truth,and God will work with us and bring us to the door,but we are the ones that have to make the final push and open that door,for God's kingdom is based on true love,but God gets the glory for without Him interceding in our life to get to that point,we would of not made it to be able to push open the door.

    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    It is obvious that God wants all people to be saved,and that cannot be argued,and all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,and our righteousness is as filthy rags,and there is none that does good,no,not one,all people are in the same situation,and since we have to have free will for God's kingdom to be true love,and all are sinners,then God did not choose who would be saved and not saved without their input in choosing that salvation,by believing the truth.

    Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
    Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

    God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened,for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning,for it will surely come to pass with no hindrances.

    Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.

    Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

    Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

    Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,although it did not happen until 4000 years later,and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world,although it was in the future,and all the works were finished from the foundation of the world,although they were future,for God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened,so all the works that are of God were finished from the foundation of the world,although they were future events.

    God did not choose who would be saved and not saved,for He gave us free will to decide that for His kingdom is true love,but it means that God already had the plan to give mankind salvation,before the foundation of the world,so it is the same as if the saints already have that salvation in the beginning,but that salvation came when people in the future chose that salvation,like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.God wants all people to be saved,and the Spirit,and bride,say,Come,and anybody can be saved if they apply them self,so it is without doubt God wants all people to be saved.

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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Sully View Post
    Fair enough, you've found your answers in TULIP. But you're asking me to assess the pros and cons of both Calvinism and Arminianism. I've taken that nature walk before and although it's quite scenic, the destination (no pun) sucks. I thought it might be easier to pole vault to the sucky destination by having you state how TULIP fits the bill specifically. That way we can fast forward to the part where neither of us convinces the other.
    Arminius wrote this long drawn out affair that was put into five statements.

    Calvinist (funny it wasn't even Calvin who wrote the rebuttal, and yet the poor guy has been drawn through the mud ever since) came up with a long drawn out counter that fit into five statements.

    I'm not asking you for the long drawn out affair. I'm not asking you even to defend what you believe. All I'm asking is five statements (give or take, up to you which way you want to go) that fits into your Neitherist beliefs.

    I'm not in this to argue TULIP. (That would be stupid, since you don't buy TULIP.) I'm genuinely curious what a Neitherist believes. But, I will tell you what I'm beginning to believe since I can't seem to get a Neitherist to answer this question. I'm beginning to believe Neitherist really means "IDK and never put in the effort to figure it out."

    Honestly? That works for me. If you haven't, you haven't. I've never taken the time to study the tri/dichotomy of man, and can't really say I've lost anything deep in life for not putting in the effort. Then again, that doesn't put me into the Neitherist camp for whether Man is a trichotomy or dichotomy debate. It puts me solidly into the IDK camp.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by RickyZ View Post
    TULIP meaning..?

    (I must need another cup of coffee )
    The famous "five points of Calvinism."

    And, yes, you need another cup of coffee. (The answer to "Do I need another cup of coffee" is always YES. So sayeth my hubby. lol)
    RickyZ and Laish like this.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by JesusRules1 View Post
    If we do not have free will to be able to choose salvation,then God's kingdom is not true love.

    But we cannot get to that truth unless God intercedes in our life,which what will you do in the day of visitation.

    Many are called,but few are chosen,which God knows the heart condition,and if people are sincere in wanting truth,God will work with them to bring them to the truth,which not many noble,not many mighty,not many wise according to the flesh,are called,because of their heart condition.Many are called,but few chosen,because not all people go as far as they need in the search for truth.

    No man comes to the Son unless the Father draws them,and no person calls Jesus Lord in the right perspective except by the Holy Spirit,and we did not choose God,but He choose us.

    For although we have free will to decide to believe the truth,God gets the glory,for without Him interceding in our life we would of never fully understood the truth,and God will work with us and bring us to the door,but we are the ones that have to make the final push and open that door,for God's kingdom is based on true love,but God gets the glory for without Him interceding in our life to get to that point,we would of not made it to be able to push open the door.

    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    It is obvious that God wants all people to be saved,and that cannot be argued,and all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,and our righteousness is as filthy rags,and there is none that does good,no,not one,all people are in the same situation,and since we have to have free will for God's kingdom to be true love,and all are sinners,then God did not choose who would be saved and not saved without their input in choosing that salvation,by believing the truth.

    Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
    Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

    God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened,for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning,for it will surely come to pass with no hindrances.

    Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.

    Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

    Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

    Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,although it did not happen until 4000 years later,and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world,although it was in the future,and all the works were finished from the foundation of the world,although they were future,for God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened,so all the works that are of God were finished from the foundation of the world,although they were future events.

    God did not choose who would be saved and not saved,for He gave us free will to decide that for His kingdom is true love,but it means that God already had the plan to give mankind salvation,before the foundation of the world,so it is the same as if the saints already have that salvation in the beginning,but that salvation came when people in the future chose that salvation,like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.God wants all people to be saved,and the Spirit,and bride,say,Come,and anybody can be saved if they apply them self,so it is without doubt God wants all people to be saved.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

  8. #48
    Senior Member StanJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by valiant View Post
    and so say all of us LOL
    Most people have no idea what Biblical exegesis is nor how to do it.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    Arminius wrote this long drawn out affair that was put into five statements.

    Calvinist (funny it wasn't even Calvin who wrote the rebuttal, and yet the poor guy has been drawn through the mud ever since) came up with a long drawn out counter that fit into five statements.

    I'm not asking you for the long drawn out affair. I'm not asking you even to defend what you believe. All I'm asking is five statements (give or take, up to you which way you want to go) that fits into your Neitherist beliefs.

    I'm not in this to argue TULIP. (That would be stupid, since you don't buy TULIP.) I'm genuinely curious what a Neitherist believes. But, I will tell you what I'm beginning to believe since I can't seem to get a Neitherist to answer this question. I'm beginning to believe Neitherist really means "IDK and never put in the effort to figure it out."

    Honestly? That works for me. If you haven't, you haven't. I've never taken the time to study the tri/dichotomy of man, and can't really say I've lost anything deep in life for not putting in the effort. Then again, that doesn't put me into the Neitherist camp for whether Man is a trichotomy or dichotomy debate. It puts me solidly into the IDK camp.
    If you draw two circles that overlap, one representing Calvinism and one Arminianism, put the unambiguous scriptural references regarding what we know is true regarding foreknowledge and predestination in the intersected area of the circles, you will have a safe zone of truth that both philosophies share. That area is neither Calvinism or Arminianism in totality. You can call that zone whatever, neither, biblical.... IMO the tenants of scripture are not without ambiguity when it comes to the concept of how God manages foreknowledge, predestination, and freewill.
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    Senior Member StanJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Sully View Post
    If you draw two circles that overlap, one representing Calvinism and one Arminianism, put the unambiguous scriptural references regarding what we know is true regarding foreknowledge and predestination in the intersected area of the circles, you will have a safe zone of truth that both philosophies share. That area is neither Calvinism or Arminianism in totality. You can call that zone whatever, neither, biblical.... IMO the tenants of scripture are not without ambiguity when it comes to the concept of how God manages foreknowledge, predestination, and freewill.
    I'd be very interested to see if you can point out those areas that are common to both beliefs?
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    I'd be very interested to see if you can point out those areas that are common to both beliefs?
    I can, so can you. Both share the same scriptures. But then they part ways in theory.

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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Sully View Post
    I can, so can you. Both share the same scriptures. But then they part ways in theory.
    It's your claim, not mine, so please show these scriptures. As I said I don't believe there is any common ground.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    It's your claim, not mine, so please show these scriptures. As I said I don't believe there is any common ground.
    not solely my claim...the common ground is basic interpretation of certain scriptures. And then things get weird.
    Calvinism & Arminianism: Controversial Passages | Xenos Christian Fellowship
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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    Most people have no idea what Biblical exegesis is nor how to do it.
    And you do??? LOL

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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Sully View Post
    not solely my claim...the common ground is basic interpretation of certain scriptures. And then things get weird.
    Calvinism & Arminianism: Controversial Passages | Xenos Christian Fellowship
    So I guess the bottom line is you really don't want to discuss these so-called common passages?
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by valiant View Post
    And you do??? LOL
    Yep...Do you?
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    So I guess the bottom line is you really don't want to discuss these so-called common passages?
    Go ahead, it's an open forum. Like I said imo it's futile to try and convince someone embedded in either camp.

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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    The famous "five points of Calvinism."

    And, yes, you need another cup of coffee. (The answer to "Do I need another cup of coffee" is always YES. So sayeth my hubby. lol)
    Another cup indeed

    I guess I miss things like this because I don't study 'doctrines'.

    But that webpage makes some interesting points. I don't believe them all, but interesting points none the less.
    Magenta likes this.

    Truth is available only to those who have the courage to question whatever they think they know.

    It's hard to learn anything when you always feel the need to be the expert.

    Mark 7:34 “Ephphatha,” that is, “Be opened.”

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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Sully View Post
    Go ahead, it's an open forum. Like I said imo it's futile to try and convince someone embedded in either camp.
    It's not a matter of convincing somebody else it's a matter of giving an account and the reasoning for what you believe. You're the one that brought it up so I asked you a simple question, can you show these controversial scriptures, and you seem to be avoiding doing so and backpedaling. Just say no if you can't or won't.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Predestination Versus Freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by RickyZ View Post
    Another cup indeed

    I guess I miss things like this because I don't study 'doctrines'.

    But that webpage makes some interesting points. I don't believe them all, but interesting points none the less.
    This site is only for those who call themselves full Calvinists or five point Calvinists. There are also 4,3,2, & 1 point Calvinists.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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