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Thread: KING DAVID

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    Senior Member p_rehbein's Avatar
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    Default KING DAVID

    Is King David really the perfect example of OSAS? No, seriously. If he is the perfect example, then why do you suppose he was so fervent in his pleas to ask God to forgive him his sins against God? Wasn't he already saved? If so, why would he fear God's judgement of him for sins? Isn't that the core belief of OSAS?


    Psalms
    51



    1 .) Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
    2 .) Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
    3 .) For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
    4 .) Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

    5 .) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
    6 .) Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
    7 .) Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
    8 .) Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
    9 .) Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

    10 .) Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
    11 .) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

    12 .) Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

    13
    .) Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
    14 .) Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
    15 .) O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
    16 .) For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

    17 .) The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

    18 .) Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
    19 .) Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

    Gotta say that King David is the perfect example of one who realizes that sin separates us from God, and we MUST confess our sins and ask for His forgiveness........AND.......He will be faithful to do just that!

    No way one can read about King David and believe that he represents the ideology of OSAS.



    Desertsrose likes this.
    Hebrews 13:5 .) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
    6 .) So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

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    Senior Member p_rehbein's Avatar
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    Default Re: KING DAVID

    WHY?

    Why is Jesus known as our Intercessor? IF OSAS it truth, of what need do we have for an Intercessor continually at the Throne of God? What purpose would He serve?

    Hebrews 7:22) By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
    23 .) And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
    24 .) But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
    25 .) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.



    1 John
    2:
    1 .) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    2 .) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    3 .) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 .) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    5 .) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
    6 .) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
    7 .) Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
    8 .) Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.





    Desertsrose likes this.
    Hebrews 13:5 .) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
    6 .) So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

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    Senior Member p_rehbein's Avatar
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    Default Re: KING DAVID

    Matthew 24:24


    1 .) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    2 .) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    3 .) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    4 .) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    5 .) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    6 .) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    7 .) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    8 .) All these are the beginning of sorrows.
    9 .) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

    10 .) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    11 .) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
    12 .) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    13 .) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


    Hebrews 13:5 .) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
    6 .) So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: KING DAVID

    Quote Originally Posted by p_rehbein View Post
    Why is Jesus known as our Intercessor? IF OSAS it truth, of what need do we have for an Intercessor continually at the Throne of God? What purpose would He serve?
    Jesus is interceding for us while Satan continually accuses us before God.

    “For there is one God, and one mediator also
    between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”


    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

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    Senior Member JaumeJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: KING DAVID

    King David was not llowed to build the first temple. He was considered as having blood on his hands.He had blood guilt because he killed in battles for Israel. This may sound weird because he did most of it, perhaps all of it at the command of Yahweh..........go figure. I am here to believe god, not to critique Him< not that I would be qualifed, or anyone else for that matter.

    I believe David was guilty of more blood guilt when he had his captain retreate behind Uriah after sending him to the forefront of a most heated battle in order for him to be killed so David could have Bath Sheba, that exibitionist from her roof/top! She is also the mother of Shlomo.........Solomon.

    His name means Beloved, and his throne is an allegory of the etrnal Throne upon which our Beloved is seated for eternity.

    The David son of Jesse is a lesson to all on trusting God-s perfect mercy. Do not confuse the words mercy and grace, although they have many identical attributes. Grace is also the power of the Holy Spirit that comes upon us at times when it is the Father-s time. Mercy is forgiveness from God..........It is woderful to have both.

    OASIS is not from the Word nor is it from the Holy Spirit, it is a nice thought, but according to the Word and sadly people can lose salvation, but I will not attempt to explain how.

    I always refer to the moment the Holy Spirit entwered into me, which I believe all belivers do. In that glorious instant I was told, without words that everything was going to be just fine as all turned to light and the light entered into me, oh wah an etwernal moment of joy, amen. You childred of the most High God, always refer to your moment of salvation when you may feel your faith waning.........it comes right baack.

    God bless all, expecially you, Paul.




    Quote Originally Posted by p_rehbein View Post
    Is King David really the perfect example of OSAS? No, seriously. If he is the perfect example, then why do you suppose he was so fervent in his pleas to ask God to forgive him his sins against God? Wasn't he already saved? If so, why would he fear God's judgement of him for sins? Isn't that the core belief of OSAS?


    Psalms
    51



    1 .) Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
    2 .) Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
    3 .) For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
    4 .) Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

    5 .) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
    6 .) Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
    7 .) Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
    8 .) Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
    9 .) Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

    10 .) Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
    11 .) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

    12 .) Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

    13
    .) Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
    14 .) Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
    15 .) O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
    16 .) For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

    17 .) The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

    18 .) Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
    19 .) Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

    Gotta say that King David is the perfect example of one who realizes that sin separates us from God, and we MUST confess our sins and ask for His forgiveness........AND.......He will be faithful to do just that!

    No way one can read about King David and believe that he represents the ideology of OSAS.



    From the Mouth of our Lord, Jesus Christ, or do you call Him Yeshua?
    Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.


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    Senior Member JaumeJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: KING DAVID

    A brief PS......do not confuse the teachin gof never being separated from the love of Jesus christ by anything withOSAS, Jesus Christ loves all mankind, He even expressed His care for mankind when from the cross He asked the Father to forgive them.... He plead for all sinners, for He died there for all sinners.


    ]
    RickyZ and Desertsrose like this.
    From the Mouth of our Lord, Jesus Christ, or do you call Him Yeshua?
    Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.


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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: KING DAVID

    Quote Originally Posted by JaumeJ View Post
    A brief PS......do not confuse the teaching of never being separated from the love of Jesus Christ by anything with OSAS, Jesus Christ loves all mankind, He even expressed His care for mankind when from the cross He asked the Father to forgive them.... He plead for all sinners, for He died there for all sinners.
    Amen . .
    JaumeJ likes this.


    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

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    Senior Member p_rehbein's Avatar
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    Default Re: KING DAVID

    1 Timothy 4:1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    2 .) Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    Matthew 7:21)
    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 .) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 .) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    2 Corinthians
    11



    1 .) Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
    2 .) For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
    3 .) But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
    4 .) For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    Revelation 2:4)
    Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
    5 .) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

    Hebrews 3:12)
    Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
    13 .) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
    14 .) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
    15 .) While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
    16 .) For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
    17 .) But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
    18 .) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
    19 .) So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

    2 Peter 2:20)
    For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
    21 .) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
    22 .) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

    Romans 11:18)
    Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 .) Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    20 .) Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 .) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 .) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 .) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

    Revelation
    3



    1 .) And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
    2 .) Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
    3 .) Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
    4 .) Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
    5 .) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    James 1:12)
    Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

    1 Timothy 4:16)
    Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    James 5:19)
    Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
    20 .) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

    1 Corinthians 9:24)
    Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
    25 .) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
    26 .) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
    27 .) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


    Hebrews 10:35)
    Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
    36 .) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
    37 .) For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
    38 .) Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
    39 .) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    2 Thessalonians
    2



    1 .) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 .) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 .) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    1 Timothy 5:15)
    For some are already turned aside after Satan.

    2 Timothy 3:14)
    But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
    15 .) And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 .) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 .) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    Romans 6:15)
    What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 .) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 .) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 .) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
    19 .) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
    20 .) For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
    21 .) What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
    22 .) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
    23 .) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Matthew 12:36)
    But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
    37 .) For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.............
    43)
    When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
    44 .) Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
    45 .) Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.


    Desertsrose likes this.
    Hebrews 13:5 .) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
    6 .) So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

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    Senior Member nowyouseem033's Avatar
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    Default Re: KING DAVID

    King David was a child of God and the proof that he was a child of God is his confession. Only a true believer would confess his sins before God like David did. So yes David sinned but he never lost his salvation because he would of never confessed his sins before God if he did lose his salvation. What he did lose was the 'joy' of salvation and he also felt the consequences and weight and guilt of his sins.

    God saved David and loved him and though David sinned terribly, he repented and confessed before God. This confession is not a prescription to get salvation rather it is a description of salvation.

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    Default Re: KING DAVID

    OSAS was developed as an answer to those who were teaching saved and then lost and saved and then lost, depending on how they did day by day. The idea was that if you were really saved then God would not immediately cast you off even if you sinned. Anyway, the idea took it one more step and decided that a really saved person could never be lost. This idea did not take in the reality that at times there are real Christians that turn away from God and stay that way. Of course only God can call back His Spirit from a person and some testify of being saved and then go their own way for years and then the Lord bring them back. The bible does not teach saved and lost and then saved again, if a person is really saved, and then really lost(God calls back His Spirit) then that person cannot be saved again. I suppose some of the idea that a really saved person cannot be lost is because of the long suffering of God with some Christians.

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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: KING DAVID

    Quote Originally Posted by nowyouseem033 View Post
    King David was a child of God and the proof that he was a child of God is his confession. Only a true believer would confess his sins before God like David did. So yes David sinned but he never lost his salvation because he would of never confessed his sins before God if he did lose his salvation. What he did lose was the 'joy' of salvation and he also felt the consequences and weight and guilt of his sins.

    God saved David and loved him and though David sinned terribly, he repented and confessed before God. This confession is not a prescription to get salvation rather it is a description of salvation.
    His faith was counted as righteousness?


    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

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    Default Re: KING DAVID

    Quote Originally Posted by p_rehbein View Post
    Is King David really the perfect example of OSAS? No, seriously. If he is the perfect example, then why do you suppose he was so fervent in his pleas to ask God to forgive him his sins against God? Wasn't he already saved? If so, why would he fear God's judgement of him for sins? Isn't that the core belief of OSAS?


    Psalms
    51



    1 .) Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
    2 .) Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
    3 .) For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
    4 .) Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

    5 .) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
    6 .) Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
    7 .) Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
    8 .) Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
    9 .) Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

    10 .) Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
    11 .) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

    12 .) Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

    13
    .) Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
    14 .) Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
    15 .) O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
    16 .) For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

    17 .) The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

    18 .) Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
    19 .) Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

    Gotta say that King David is the perfect example of one who realizes that sin separates us from God, and we MUST confess our sins and ask for His forgiveness........AND.......He will be faithful to do just that!

    No way one can read about King David and believe that he represents the ideology of OSAS.



    I think it in fact does show David is saved because only a true believer confesses there sins. Non-believers dont confess there sins before God because they really dont care much for God at all. They love sin.. a Christian hates sin and seeks to rid it by asking God for forgiveness. Understand that the reason why David can confess his sins before God is because he has a new nature. A new nature that tells him when he sins that it is wrong and in doing so grieves him when he does sin. Non-believers dont grieve with godly sorrow when they sin only Christians grieve when they sin because its against there new nature.
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    I don't really have a problem with OSAS if we are considering FROM God's Perspective - meaning that I don't believe that God saves based on our current beliefs or actions.

    And just to be clear - We are only saved through Jesus Christ, but despite what some preach we are required to "tend to the gift".

    I believe that God is not confined by time. He has always known EVERYTHING that will happen.

    He does not move our names back and forth between the saved and unsaved column.

    The problem comes in when OSAS is applied from the human perspective. We someone who is "obviously righteous" or who has decided to "believe in Jesus" and we claim to that they can never loose their salvation, which inevitably leaves us grasping for an explanation when they are clearly acting in an unchristian manner or have completely rejected Jesus as their Savior.

    We are saved when we are in Christ. God does not prevent us from leaving.
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    THE WAYS OF GOD are not effected by the opinions of men.

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    in my opinion, this is the real question- does Christ save us, or does God through Christ offer an opportunity to get saved, but we have to take the offer, and then maintain salvation ourselves. think about this.

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    5 And when king David came to Bahurim, behold, thence came out a man of the family of the house of Saul, whose name was Shimei, the son of Gera: he came forth, and cursed still as he came.
    6 And he cast stones at David, and at all the servants of king David: and all the people and all the mighty men were on his right hand and on his left.
    7 And thus said Shimei when he cursed, Come out, come out, thou bloody man, and thou man of Belial:
    8 The Lord hath returned upon thee all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose stead thou hast reigned; and the Lord hath delivered the kingdom into the hand of Absalom thy son: and, behold, thou art taken in thy mischief, because thou art a bloody man.
    9 Then said Abishai the son of Zeruiah unto the king, Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head.
    10 And the king said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse, because the Lord hath said unto him, Curse David. Who shall then say, Wherefore hast thou done so?

    11 And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more now may this Benjamite do it? let him alone, and let him curse; for the Lord hath bidden him.
    12 It may be that the Lord will look on mine affliction, and that the Lord will requite me good for his cursing this day.
    13 And as David and his men went by the way, Shimei went along on the hill's side over against him, and cursed as he went, and threw stones at him, and cast dust.
    14 And the king, and all the people that were with him, came weary, and refreshed themselves there.
    15 And Absalom, and all the people the men of Israel, came to Jerusalem, and Ahithophel with him.
    16 And it came to pass, when Hushai the Archite, David's friend, was come unto Absalom, that Hushai said unto Absalom, God save the king, God save the king.
    17 And Absalom said to Hushai, Is this thy kindness to thy friend? why wentest thou not with thy friend?
    18 And Hushai said unto Absalom, Nay; but whom the Lord, and this people, and all the men of Israel, choose, his will I be, and with him will I abide.



    19 And again, whom should I serve? should I not serve in the presence of his son? as I have served in thy father's presence, so will I be in thy presence.
    20 Then said Absalom to Ahithophel, Give counsel among you what we shall do.
    21 And Ahithophel said unto Absalom, Go in unto thy father's concubines, which he hath left to keep the house; and all Israel shall hear that thou art abhorred of thy father: then shall the hands of all that are with thee be strong.
    22 So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel.
    23 And the counsel of Ahithophel, which he counselled in those days, was as if a man had enquired at the oracle of God: so was all the counsel of Ahithophel both with David and with Absalom. 2 Samuel 16:5-23

    Absalom was Bathsheba's son, was Absalom ever saved? We could see David loved Absalom, it must have been horrible for David.

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    1 Moreover Ahithophel said unto Absalom, Let me now choose out twelve thousand men, and I will arise and pursue after David this night:

    2 And I will come upon him while he is weary and weak handed, and will make him afraid: and all the people that are with him shall flee; and I will smite the king only:
    3 And I will bring back all the people unto thee: the man whom thou seekest is as if all returned: so all the people shall be in peace.
    4 And the saying pleased Absalom well, and all the elders of Israel.
    5 Then said Absalom, Call now Hushai the Archite also, and let us hear likewise what he saith.
    6 And when Hushai was come to Absalom, Absalom spake unto him, saying, Ahithophel hath spoken after this manner: shall we do after his saying? if not; speak thou.
    7 And Hushai said unto Absalom, The counsel that Ahithophel hath given is not good at this time.
    8 For, said Hushai, thou knowest thy father and his men, that they be mighty men, and they be chafed in their minds, as a bear robbed of her whelps in the field: and thy father is a man of war, and will not lodge with the people.

    9 Behold, he is hid now in some pit, or in some other place: and it will come to pass, when some of them be overthrown at the first, that whosoever heareth it will say, There is a slaughter among the people that follow Absalom.
    10 And he also that is valiant, whose heart is as the heart of a lion, shall utterly melt: for all Israel knoweth that thy father is a mighty man, and they which be with him are valiant men.
    11 Therefore I counsel that all Israel be generally gathered unto thee, from Dan even to Beersheba, as the sand that is by the sea for multitude; and that thou go to battle in thine own person.
    12 So shall we come upon him in some place where he shall be found, and we will light upon him as the dew falleth on the ground: and of him and of all the men that are with him there shall not be left so much as one.
    13 Moreover, if he be gotten into a city, then shall all Israel bring ropes to that city, and we will draw it into the river, until there be not one small stone found there.
    14 And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The counsel of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For the Lord had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the Lord might bring evil upon Absalom. 2 Samuel 17:1-14



    25 And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab's mother.
    26 So Israel and Absalom pitched in the land of Gilead.
    27 And it came to pass, when David was come to Mahanaim, that Shobi the son of Nahash of Rabbah of the children of Ammon, and Machir the son of Ammiel of Lodebar, and Barzillai the Gileadite of Rogelim,
    28 Brought beds, and basons, and earthen vessels, and wheat, and barley, and flour, and parched corn, and beans, and lentiles, and parched pulse,
    29 And honey, and butter, and sheep, and cheese of kine, for David, and for the people that were with him, to eat: for they said, The people is hungry, and weary, and thirsty, in the wilderness. 2 Samuel 17: 25-29


    What David may have been thinking, Running and hiding from son. David and the people with him was well taken care of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gb9 View Post
    in my opinion, this is the real question- does Christ save us, or does God through Christ offer an opportunity to get saved, but we have to take the offer, and then maintain salvation ourselves. think about this.
    The New Testament is a Testament and a Testament is a covenant and a covenant takes two parties to keep their side of the Agreement... Jesus saves us if we continue in belief and trusting in the Atonement He secured for our salvation.. We have to Keep the Faith.. We have to persevere in Faith...

    So Jesus Saves and We believe Jesus and trust in His salvation..

    We do not keep our side of the New Covenant by doing works and sin avoidance.. It is by Believing and Trusting Jesus..
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    4 And the king said unto them, What seemeth you best I will do. And the king stood by the gate side, and all the people came out by hundreds and by thousands.
    5 And the king commanded Joab and Abishai and Ittai, saying, Deal gently for my sake with the young man, even with Absalom. And all the people heard when the king gave all the captains charge concerning Absalom.
    6 So the people went out into the field against Israel: and the battle was in the wood of Ephraim;
    7 Where the people of Israel were slain before the servants of David, and there was there a great slaughter that day of twenty thousand men.
    8 For the battle was there scattered over the face of all the country: and the wood devoured more people that day than the sword devoured.
    9 And Absalom met the servants of David. And Absalom rode upon a mule, and the mule went under the thick boughs of a great oak, and his head caught hold of the oak, and he was taken up between the heaven and the earth; and the mule that was under him went away.
    10 And a certain man saw it, and told Joab, and said, Behold, I saw Absalom hanged in an oak.

    11 And Joab said unto the man that told him, And, behold, thou sawest him, and why didst thou not smite him there to the ground? and I would have given thee ten shekels of silver, and a girdle.
    12 And the man said unto Joab, Though I should receive a thousand shekels of silver in mine hand, yet would I not put forth mine hand against the king's son: for in our hearing the king charged thee and Abishai and Ittai, saying, Beware that none touch the young man Absalom.
    13 Otherwise I should have wrought falsehood against mine own life: for there is no matter hid from the king, and thou thyself wouldest have set thyself against me.
    14 Then said Joab, I may not tarry thus with thee. And he took three darts in his hand, and thrust them through the heart of Absalom, while he was yet alive in the midst of the oak.

    15 And ten young men that bare Joab's armour compassed about and smote Absalom, and slew him.
    16 And Joab blew the trumpet, and the people returned from pursuing after Israel: for Joab held back the people.



    17 And they took Absalom, and cast him into a great pit in the wood, and laid a very great heap of stones upon him: and all Israel fled every one to his tent. 2 Samuel 18:5-17


    David still asking for Absalom not to be harmed.

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    23 But howsoever, said he, let me run. And he said unto him, Run. Then Ahimaaz ran by the way of the plain, and overran Cushi.
    24 And David sat between the two gates: and the watchman went up to the roof over the gate unto the wall, and lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold a man running alone.
    25 And the watchman cried, and told the king. And the king said, If he be alone, there is tidings in his mouth. And he came apace, and drew near.
    26 And the watchman saw another man running: and the watchman called unto the porter, and said, Behold another man running alone. And the king said, He also bringeth tidings.
    27 And the watchman said, Me thinketh the running of the foremost is like the running of Ahimaaz the son of Zadok. And the king said, He is a good man, and cometh with good tidings.
    28 And Ahimaaz called, and said unto the king, All is well. And he fell down to the earth upon his face before the king, and said, Blessed be the Lord thy God, which hath delivered up the men that lifted up their hand against my lord the king.

    29 And the king said, Is the young man Absalom safe? And Ahimaaz answered, When Joab sent the king's servant, and me thy servant, I saw a great tumult, but I knew not what it was.
    30 And the king said unto him, Turn aside, and stand here. And he turned aside, and stood still.
    31 And, behold, Cushi came; and Cushi said, Tidings, my lord the king: for the Lord hath avenged thee this day of all them that rose up against thee.
    32 And the king said unto Cushi, Is the young man Absalom safe? And Cushi answered, The enemies of my lord the king, and all that rise against thee to do thee hurt, be as that young man is.
    33 And the king was much moved, and went up to the chamber over the gate, and wept: and as he went, thus he said, O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! would God I had died for thee, O Absalom, my son, my son! 2 Samuel 18:23-33

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    Does anyone really worry over a brother because of an osas or nosas belief? I don't. I worry over a brother if he isn't walking in the Spirit, growing in virtue, getting control over his tongue, his emotions, his emotional soundness of mind. If he isn't improving in these things, then he isn't walking in the Spirit/abiding. If he continues on in this way, never gaining mastery over these enemies but rather having them abuse and torment him, that's the brother I worry over.i can't make the determination of whether he has the Spirit or not but we can certainly see if someone is WALKING in that Spirit and growing in virtues.
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