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Thread: Herbie's Heresies?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Herbie's Heresies?

    This is what Hebert Armstrong wrote on Born Again - does what he say agree with the holy scrip?

    "There is a big differance between being begotten and being born.
    Just What Does it Mean to be [Born Again] ? that being born of God is a process,
    in which there is a time element. Just as being born of the human flesh a process.

    most places you see born- should read begotten, fashoned after real human reproduction
    “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God” (Rom. 8:14).

    The unborn child in his mother’s womb is the child of his father and mother, though
    not yet born—delivered from the womb. So are we, if God’s Spirit dwells in us

    —if we are being led by God’s Spirit—children of God. Yet, at this time, we are
    in the gestation state, not yet that parturition. And only heirs. Not inheritors!

    Continue: “And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ;
    if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be [future—at resurrection] also
    glorified together” (v.-17). Now see how this passage designates the resurrection
    into glory—when we shall be spirit—as a birth!

    “For the earnest expectation of the creature [creation] waiteth for the manifestation of
    the sons of God”—that is the time of Christ’s coming to reign, and of the resurrection to
    (being born of) spirit composition—“ because the creation itself also shall be delivered
    [a birth] from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now”
    Another comparison: We shall be delivered from this world (the Church is in, though not
    of, this world) into the glorious World Tomorrow and the Kingdom which shall rule it.

    The creation is waiting for this time of Christ’s coming, the resurrection, and the Kingdom
    of God. Because the creation shall be DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption.

    Not now delivered—shall be—at the resurrection time! Although this is not referring
    directly to our being born again, it is a direct comparison to the birth of a child being
    delivered from its mother’s womb.

    The resurrection—the time when we are changed to be spirit and to inherit the Kingdom
    will be a time of delivery from the bondage of corruptible flesh and from this world of sin
    —a real birth!

    Romans 8: “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to
    the image of his Son, that he [Jesus]might be the firstborn among many brethren” .

    Now compare with Romans 1:3-4: “Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
    which was made of the seed of David according the flesh;
    And declared to be the Son of God … by the resurrection from the dead.”

    Jesus was, in the human flesh—His first birth—a descendant of David, and, by the
    resurrection from the dead (born again) —the Son of God, now no longer human, but
    composed of spirit—a spirit being. He thus became the first so born of many brethren
    who shall be born again at the time of the resurrection of those who are Christ’s.

    Of course we understand, and so did Paul in writing the above, that Jesus was also
    the Son of God while in the human flesh. Though born of a human woman, He was
    sired by God. But this is comparing the two births—the one from the human Mary,
    as descended from the human David—the other, by His resurrection to glory,
    as Son of God by His resurrection, in the same manner we may be.

    Emphatically this does not imply that Jesus was a sinner needing salvation.
    He was the pioneer, setting us the example, that we, too, may be born of God.

    “For our conversation [citizenship] is in heaven; from whence also we look for
    the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body [flesh],
    that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body …” (Phil. 3:20-21).

    And what is Christ’s glorious body like? His eyes are as flames of fire
    —His face bright as the sun atfull strength (Rev. 1:14-16).

    Just What Do You Mean Born Again? that being born of God is a process,
    inwhich there is a time element. Just as being born of the human flesh a process.

    At the time when the father begets and the mother conceives—of the union of
    sperm cell and ovum—the fertilized ovum becomes an embryo. But it is not yet
    delivered from the womb—not yet born! And will not be for nine months.

    A pregnancy is in progress. Yet during this period of physical development and
    growth, it is the unborn child of its parents. In like manner, at the time when

    the Spirit Father, God, begets a human with the Spirit (the spiritual counterpart
    of the physical sperm)—the Holy Spirit—he becomes a son of God!

    He is then already a son of God.

    But he is still human—he is still material flesh and blood. He must now
    undergo a period (until death, the resurrection) of spiritual development
    and growth. He is in the gestation state in the process toward being born.

    He is in the Church of God, but the Church is not the Kingdom of God.
    The Church is composed of human, flesh-and-blood children of God.
    And, flesh and blood cannot see, cannot enter into, cannot,ninherit the Kingdom of God.
    The Kingdom of God is made up ofspirit-composed children of God.
    The Spirit-begotten human in the Church is in the process of being born of God,
    but he has not yetentered the Kingdom of God. He has not yet been born of God.

    He[we] is in the gestation state toward spirit birth, but not yet born of the Spirit.
    He yet has a lot of spiritual developing and growing to do—acquiring the spiritual
    character-image of God.

    He that overcometh shall [inherit all things]; and I will be his God,
    and he shall be my son. Revelation 21:7
    what does it mean to [inherit all things] ?

    Hebrews chapter 1: “God … Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
    whom he hath appointed heir of all things [Moffatt and others, the universe],

    by whom also he made the worlds; Who, being the brightness of his glory, [Moffatt]
    stamped with God’s own character and upholding [sustaining] the universe by the word
    of his power …” (Heb. 1:1-3). All power, in heaven and Earth (Matt. 28:18), has been
    given to Christ. He is now Chief Executive of God’s government of the universe.

    Now begin with Hebrews 2:6; a citation from Psalm 8:4-6:

    “What is man, that thou art mindful of him?”
    Yes, why should the great God be concerned about us mortals?

    Why did He put us here on Earth? What is the purpose of life—what
    is our transcendent potential? It is so far above and beyond anything you
    have thought or imagined, it seems shockingly incredible to even amange!

    verse 7: “Thou madest him a little lower than the angels ….” Some translations
    have it,“for a little while lower than the angels.” Continue: “[T]hou crownedst
    him [kingship] with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands”
    —that is, God’s creation. Continue:

    “Thou hast put all things [Moffatt: the universe] in subjection under his feet.
    For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him..

    “… But now [in this present gestation state] we see not yet all things
    [the universe] put under him” (v. 8). But what do we see, now?
    “But we see Jesus … crowned with glory and honour …” (v.-9).

    “For it became him [Jesus], for whom are all things, and by whom are all things,
    in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain [margin: leader—or,
    forerunner, pioneer—the One who has gone on before us, as we are to follow]
    of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who
    are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren”
    (vv. 10-11).

    He is the firstborn of many brethren! He has inherited “all things”
    We are still heirs—still in the gestation stage of the process of being born
    of God. Jesus is now our High Priest, supervising our spiritual development
    —preparing us to be kings and priests, reigning with Him!

    The first thousand years we shall reign on the Earth. For He shall have
    “made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth”
    (Rev. 5:10).

    For that first thousand years, Jesus is to reign on the throne of His earthly
    ancestor David in Jerusalem (Isa. 9:6-7). And, “he that overcometh,
    and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power
    over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron …”

    Jesus said, again, “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with
    me in my throne [at Jerusalem], even as I also overcame, and am [now]
    set down with my Father in his throne”[in heaven] (Rev. 3:21).

    When born of God, we shall be spirit, no longer human flesh and blood.
    We shall be given power! As Daniel revealed, the saints then shall take
    the kingdoms of Earth’s nations and rule them—for the first thousand years."



  2. #2
    Senior Member zone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post

    "...Jesus was, in the human flesh—His first birth—a descendant of David, and, by the
    resurrection from the dead (born again) —the Son of God, now no longer human, but
    composed of spirit—a spirit being. He thus became the first so born of many brethren
    who shall be born again at the time of the resurrection of those who are Christ’s."....- Armstrong
    yuck.
    what a stinky heresy.
    The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

    http://www.lcms.org/

    ~

    Sooner or later, somebody is going to insist that the Bible be studied, and then there will be disunity.
    Gary Summers

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    Senior Member maxwel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    Locutus,

    Thank you for correctly labeling your Armstrong doctrine as heresy.

    Will save everyone a lot of time.
    Angela53510 and dcontroversal like this.

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    Senior Member prove-all's Avatar
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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxwel View Post
    Locutus,

    Thank you for correctly labeling your Armstrong doctrine as heresy.

    Will save everyone a lot of time.
    if you believe this is false doctrine what was posted in this current page,
    please show what is in error on post about it since you believe incorrect.
    prove to me this is wrong , can you backup what you post and claim or not

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    Senior Member maxwel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by prove-all View Post
    if you believe this is false doctrine what was posted in this current page,
    please show what is in error on post about it since you believe incorrect.
    prove to me this is wrong , can you backup what you post and claim or not

    Wow, that's a lot of tension.

    I was just thanking the OP for putting the word "heresy" right in the title for everyone.

    Can't you just be happy with me?

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    Senior Member prove-all's Avatar
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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxwel View Post
    Wow, that's a lot of tension.

    I was just thanking the OP for putting the word "heresy" right in the title for everyone.

    Can't you just be happy with me?
    this thread was started because the o.p. could not refute what was posted in another thread.

    I would be happy if you show me what is in error above.
    if you can not or will not refute this current post, why call it heresy

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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    Is he saying we are not truly born again until we put on the immortal following the resurrection?
    dcontroversal likes this.


    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by prove-all View Post
    this thread was started because the o.p. could not refute what was posted in another thread.

    I would be happy if you show me what is in error above.
    if you can not or will not refute this current post, why call it heresy
    OP started thread to allow others to refute the heresy - personally I can't be bovvered...

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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    Sometimes Armstrong would say something right out of the bible but he had a different meaning for it then what most believe. It has been such a long time since I studied Armstrongism that I cannot for the moment remember exactly what it was that he was wrong about. I listened to Armstrong(father and son) for years until I finally realized that they were not teaching the biblical gospel message.
    Locutus likes this.

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    Senior Member prove-all's Avatar
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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    Is he saying we are not truly born again until we put on the immortal following the resurrection?
    this was first posted here
    The Born of God

    “And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ
    not yet inherited inmortality or the promises, when he returns we do

    we are begotten not yet born into the kingdom
    most verses you see born- it really means begotten.
    Magenta likes this.

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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    This is certainly an area where I see a lot of contention, between many factions.

    joaniemarie likes this.


    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    Herbie thought he was a modern day Elijah and promoted Mosaic Law over the new covenant - a very legalistic mindset promoting the shadows of Israel's feasts...

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    Senior Member prove-all's Avatar
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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    we are a new creature when that seed of the Holy Spirit enters you,
    but we are still flesh and blood.



    God declares things sometimes before they happen.

    we are now sons of God, Jesus was called a son of God,
    and he was declarared the Son of God, by the ressurection just like we will be.

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    Senior Member prove-all's Avatar
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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    Herbie thought he was a modern day Elijah and promoted Mosaic Law over the new covenant - a very legalistic mindset promoting the shadows of Israel's feasts...
    new testement Jesus tells us to keep the passover

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    Senior Member maxwel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by prove-all View Post
    this thread was started because the o.p. could not refute what was posted in another thread.

    I would be happy if you show me what is in error above.
    if you can not or will not refute this current post, why call it heresy

    Shouldn't you just be happy for those of us who recognize heresy when we see it?

    Can't you just rejoice with us?
    Angela53510 and Sirk like this.

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by prove-all View Post
    new testement Jesus tells us to keep the passover
    How are you gonna keep the passover when there is no temple and priests to offer it....
    Angela53510 likes this.

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    Senior Member prove-all's Avatar
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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    Herbie thought he was a modern day Elijah and promoted Mosaic Law over the new covenant - a very legalistic mindset promoting the shadows of Israel's feasts...
    do you want to discuss what [you think is wrong] with what is posted above.

    [subject above]or do you want to keep belittleing someone who is dead.

    with no bible verse of your own, again prove above wrong then move on

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    Senior Member prove-all's Avatar
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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    How are you gonna keep the passover when there is no temple and priests to offer it....
    show me where Jesus keep the passover in the temple, or said to

  19. #19
    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    Like I said - I can't be bovvered. It would be pointless because your mind is made up.

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Herbie's Heresies?

    Quote Originally Posted by prove-all View Post
    show me where Jesus keep the passover in the temple, or said to
    Show me where in the bible the passover was not performed at the temple.

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