Seal up vision and prophecy

Locutus · Apr 8, 2017

J7 is right, it's not quite that straight forward, the decision has to be made on how both genea and genos are used within a body of work, otherwise we end up with a mass of confusion.

In the new testament both words are used, so they are being used to mean two different but related things - genea is used to for a generation of persons 40-100 years, while genos is used for race or stock.

The following pic shows that the writer chose G1085 to establish Jesus' "stock" as from David, he did not use G1074 as that would mean he was of David's generation, which we know he wasn't.

The same goes for Philippians 3:5:

So when Jesus stated "this generation shall not pass" the only way to understand it is to take it as his contemporary generation, not race, stock or breed.

J7 · Apr 8, 2017

You are absolutely right Locutus, it means a temporal generation.
I've learned something

Base12 · Apr 8, 2017

Meh.

Honestly people...

The meaning of Generation in this context is completely moot...

Luke 21:32
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled"

The bottom line is that "This Generation" is speaking of the future... period.

(Interesting... I never noticed the word 'This' is capitalized).

Locutus, if you are thinking we are on the verge of some 'Star Trek' fantasy world, you are mistaken.

Again, I point to Mankind's wicked imagination and the Parable of the Fig Tree...

Matthew 24:32
"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh"

What did Adam and Eve try to "GMO" themselves with?

Genesis 3:7
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons"

They tried to Genetically Engineer their own 'Aprons' out of Fig Leaves...

The Parable of the Fig Tree is referring to the beginnings of Transhumanism.

We are almost at the point of seeing the tender branches and leaves being put forth.

Why do you think Jesus was so angry at that tree?

Mark 11:21
"And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away"

All the wishful thinking in the world isn't going to prevent Troubles with Tribuls.

The Iron Kingdom...

Who's side are you on Man!

Locutus · Apr 8, 2017

What are you smokin' 12?

Of course Luke 21:32 is the generation that was contemporary with Jesus, they are the ones that saw it compassed with armies prior to it's desolation:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Desolation - Greek - eremosis - used only three times in the Greek new testament - all pointing to the same event.

There is no capitalization in the Greek text, so This is added in the translation process.

abcdef · Apr 8, 2017

Locutus said:

What are you smokin' 12?

Of course Luke 21:32 is the generation that was contemporary with Jesus, they are the ones that saw it compassed with armies prior to it's desolation:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Desolation - Greek - eremosis - used only three times in the Greek new testament - all pointing to the same event.

There is no capitalization in the Greek text, so This is added in the translation process.

.
Agree..........

JesusRules1 · Apr 8, 2017

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Some say this applies to Jesus,but Jesus does not spread abominations,but goodness,and it applies to the man of sin,who believes in no personal God,but honors the God of forces,the power of nature,in to the occult,nature worship,and witchcraft.

He will establish peace in the Middle East,and from there for 7 years shall spread his ways upon earth,and have a kingdom that is based on the occult,and believes in no personal God.

Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Because of that peace treaty in the Middle East,the Jews will rebuild their temple,and go back to animal sacrifices,with no hassle from the Palestinians,and three and one half years later the man of sin will step in to their temple,and claim to be God,and their Messiah.

Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The abomination of desolation has not happened yet,and is the time that God allows all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,and when they take the mark of the beast,salvation is no longer available to them,and God will get His children off the earth,and then come back with His children to save Israel.

There is a second attack on Jerusalem that involves the whole world that is a future event.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Joe 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
Joe 3:3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
Joe 3:4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;
Joe 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

There is a second attack on Jerusalem coming in the future,and they attack them because God turned the nation of Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,and the world believes in no God,and trying to take away all people who claim Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Israel is blinded in part,they acknowledge the Old Testament,but not the New,until salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles,and so all Israel shall be saved,which they attack Jerusalem,the Jews,in which Jesus comes back and all the saints are with Him,and puts the world down.

In Matthew 24,and Luke 21,the saints shall be hated of all nations,not a few nations,but all nations,and the Gospel will be preached in to all the world as a witness to the nations,not a few nations,but all nations,and the beast has power over all nations,kindreds,and tongues.

There is a second attack on Jerusalem involving the whole world,who went against the religion of Islam,the 6th trumpet,Christianity,Revelation 13,and Israel,Revelation 19,which Jesus comes back with all His saints,and puts the world down,and saves Israel,which God said,He will make a full end of all Gentile nations,but will not make a full end of Israel,but will not leave them wholly unpunished(Jeremiah 46:27-28),and when they have borne their shame then the kingdom on earth will be restored to them.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Johnny_B · Apr 8, 2017

J7 said:

I'm here to learn and help with what little I do know, so please don't take this the wrong way. What are you saying with all this information? Are you saying that Jesus has already returned, one of the things that He mentioned in verse 29-31 was the sign of His coming and His coming, so form what I'm understanding you to say is Jesus has already come back, is that correct? Again don't take this the wrong way, I'm not sure how to word this so what I'm going to say, may sound confrontational which I'm not trying to be. You've said all that to say what, there's lots of info, but you never brought it to a close or conclusion.

As I mentioned with Locutus, the Greek dictionary in the Greek New Testament 4th edition has genea in Matthew 24:34 of that GNT to mean genealogy or as you put it genetic lineage, same thing. It does not have time associated with it, geneas has it associated with it time, family, prosperity. Which Luke uses in 17:25 when speaking of His coming and how He first had to suffer many things and be rejected by that generation of that period of time, His contemporaries and there families and prosperities. Which is interesting when you look at Matthew 27:25 "And all the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!”

The context of the use of genea is about future events, verse 33 "So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates." He's giving the disciples this in His lesson of the fig tree, 34 is Him telling them that this generation will not pass away. The interesting part is, His absolute statement about "this generation will not pass away", He guarantees it with verse 35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." Why would He put such a guarantee on His previous statement, if it just meant His contemporaries the generation then living. It's the same guarantee He gave about His fulfilling the Law and the Prophets, Matthew 5:18 "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." Here He added, "until all is accomplished" which is what He's talking about here in 24 and 25, until He come back and brings in the New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem, then all will be accomplished.

When you take the full council of God's prophecy, which has the fulfillment His promise to Abraham in it, the Jewish people will see the fulfillment of that promise. With that in mind verse 35 is letting them know that even thou the Temple was going to be destroyed, they were going to be driven from the land, that the Jews would still be around to see their promised Messiah that they rejected in His first coming. It was Jesus' guarantee that they would remain a people, nation, genealogy, genetic lineage, family and prosperity of Abraham, why has God always rescued the Jews it was because of the promise He made to Abraham. He's not going to cut them off now. That being established by them keeping their identity, their language, customs, culture, religion and did not assimilate into the countries that they were driven to.

Genesis 17:6-8 “I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. 8 And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.” God always rescued them because of His promise to Abraham.
Psalms 105:8-10, 41-43 "He remembers his covenant forever, the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations, He remembers his covenant forever, the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant that he made with Abraham, his sworn promise to Isaac, which he confirmed to Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant.....He opened the rock, and water gushed out, it flowed through the desert like a river. For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham, his servant. So he brought his people out with joy, his chosen ones with singing."

Deuteronomy 29:12-14 "so that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the Lord your God, which the Lord your God is making with you today, 13 that he may establish you today as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. 14 It is not with you alone that I am making this sworn covenant,"

Everything He does for Israel is because of His promise to Abraham, Jesus made that covenant with Abraham and He furthers that promise to the disciples in the promise that Abraham's genealogy would not pass away, that they will see all these things. We know that at His second coming they will receive Him.

If I'm wrong, please help me understand better, because this just came to me as I was writing out about verse 24:35. God Bless

Johnny_B · Apr 8, 2017

Locutus said:

I agree as well, it's not straight forward, for sure we need to interpret it with-in it's context. I wish I would of seen this before I posted in response to J7's post.

Locutus if you don't mind me asking what program are you using and does it help you to learn koine Greek?

Locutus · Apr 8, 2017

Johnny_B said:

Greek / Hebrew interlinear Bible software:

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Greek dictionaries:

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Gingrich & Danker

Greek Word Study Tool

Johnny_B · Apr 8, 2017

Locutus said:

I just noticed that Matthew uses genean or yEvEáv if those were Greek letters, in 23:36 that one is translated, in the Dictionary in the GNT has it as, descend from, if I'm reading it right. What does BDAG have?

What program is BDAG on? Thanks for the info.

Locutus · Apr 8, 2017

One is in the accusative sense the other in the nominative

Matthew 23:36 I tell you the truth, all these things will come upon this generation (genean γενεάν acc sg fem).

Matthew 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation (genea γενεά nom sg fem) will not pass away until all these things take place.

How that really affects each verse is beyond my Greek.

You could check this out:

Greek Cases

As far as I know the BDAG is available with the logos software - couple of hundred dollars.

Johnny_B · Apr 9, 2017

Base12 said:

Just a side note Luke uses the same word, genea or yEvEà if those were Greek letters. I agree it future, with the idea of that nation/race/genetic lineage or descends that will witnessing it. I think we have a winner with all of the ideas coming together. I knew we could come together and work this out. So I think this is what we have come up with.

This generation/contemporaries/nation/family/posterity of that period/of time/age will see these future events fulfilled.

I think that's what we've come up with, which is the combined interpretation with of all the info we've posted, about the Greek word yEvEá which mean as Locutus said age, generation, nation, time and what the GNT dictionary says generation, contemporaries; period, age (of time); families, posterity.

I am sorry for the long discussion, I was wrong, in my reading I missed the á I was looking at the meaning of yEvEa and not yEvEá. I'm learning how to read Greek, so this was a big lesson for me to remember to look for accent mark and thee other markings above letter. Which is really bad for my since my last name has an accent over the final vowel in it and my mother maiden name does as well. Again, forgive me for the heated discussion, which was not my intention. I know that I don't know everything and in trying to help someone I gave the wrong information, even thou it wasn't far off, it was still off.

God Bless

J7 · Apr 9, 2017

[FONT=&quot]@JohnnyB [/FONT]
18 [FONT=&quot]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]This is one of the most perplexing lines in scripture isn't it?

We can try and read so that the two clauses as equivalent, so that:

till heaven and earth pass = till all be fulfilled

But I don't think that is correct. Jesus uses the subjunctive tense here which denotes hypotheticality.

I read it like computer code.

Till heaven and earth pass sets the general parameter, but then till all be fulfilled sets a second, more exact, parameter.

So:

While we are in this present universe, not one iota of the Law will cease to exist, until all has been fulfilled.

Till heaven and earth pass is only a general time constraint, not a specific activation point.

e.g. (father to son)

While I am alive, I will never let you have access to the trust fund, until you have been confirmed.

(I know a bit lame, but to show the point).

The reason why Jesus phrases it the way he does is I think to be deliberately obscure. The time of the destruction of Jerusalem was not meant to be known or understood, until after it happened. (Otherwise people would have jumped ship aforetimes).

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Locutus · Apr 9, 2017

J7 have a read at this:

Understanding Prophetic Symbols and Apocalyptic Language Of The Bible

J7 · Apr 9, 2017

Heaven and earth passing away is a reference to what is spoken of: heaven and earth passing away, as per Revelation 21, isn't it?

All Jesus is saying is that Prophecy is more permanent and enduring than the physical world. The Word precedes The material world, as we already know from Genesis. Indeed, the foundation of the physical world is Jesus' word.

Locutus · Apr 10, 2017

Heaven and earth J7 has to be understood within the Hebrew thought, while both can be understood literally it can also be used symbolically of the nation and temple of the Israelites.

Josephus, 1st century Jewish historian and of the Pharisee sect wrote:

"Antiquities Book 3 6:4

As for the inside, Moses parted its length into three partitions. At the distance of ten cubits from the most secret end, Moses placed four pillars, the workmanship of which was the very same with that of the rest; and they stood upon the like bases with them, each a small matter distant from his fellow.

Now the room within those pillars was the most holy place; but the rest of the room was the tabernacle, which was open for the priests. However, this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world; for that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a heaven peculiar to God. But the space of the twenty cubits, is, as it were, sea and land, on which men live, and so this part is peculiar to the priests only.

Antiquities book 3 7:7

Now here one may wonder at the ill-will which men bear to us, and which they profess to bear on account of our despising that Deity which they pretend to honor; for if any one do but consider the fabric of the tabernacle, and take a view of the garments of the high priest, and of those vessels which we make use of in our sacred ministration, he will find that our legislator was a divine man, and that we are unjustly reproached by others; for if any one do without prejudice, and with judgment, look upon these things, he will find they were every one made in way of imitation and representation of the universe.

When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men. "

So the above describes the "heaven and earth" in Hebrew thought that was to pass away - which it did in the 1st century AD.

eternally-gratefull · Apr 10, 2017

Locutus said:

it means it is finished, Accomplished, Sealed up. Make an end..

J7 · Apr 10, 2017

Locutus said:

Interesting!. But they are also types and shadows no?

This is real here, isn't it?

Locutus · Apr 10, 2017

J7 said:

Yes they were shadows J7, as Paul said - the old "heavens and earth" were replaced by the heavens and earth of Christ when the old covenant types and the temple was "dissolved".

When John says there is "no more sea" he is using sea as a symbol of the Gentiles:

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw out of the sea a beast coming up, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon its horns ten diadems, and upon its heads a name of evil speaking.

There is no more separation of the nations as the Israelite nation had been separate, all nations can partake of the tree of life.

The new heaven and earth "motif" is from Isaiah

Isa 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

Notice how in the new heavens and earth there is still sin and death:

Isa 65:20 “No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days;
For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed.

J7 · Apr 10, 2017

This cannot be right:

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Seal up vision and prophecy

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