Does God Foreknow People, or Events, or Both? Which does Romans 8:28-30 refer to?

sparkman · Mar 31, 2017

Reformed theology would teach differently in that regeneration precedes faith and repentance. The natural man cannot respond to God because he is spiritually dead and unable to respond to him. This response is enabled by a "spiritual resurrection"...which is as real as raising someone from the dead.

Read Ephesians 2 in this regard.

Additionally, I John 5:1 says :

I John 5:1 5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

In other words, the CAUSE of belief is that the person has been born of God or regenerated.

I would view regeneration as different than the sealing of the Holy Spirit which occurs after salvation.

Your view is a reflection of the Arminian view except an Arminian theologian would explain that God provides "prevenient grace" for the person to make the response. The "prevenient grace" view basically is a substitute for regeneration as I've described it..that regeneration precedes faith. However the "prevenient grace" view has no basis Scripturally. I would call it the "Scotch tape" of Arminian theology..it is a doctrine that has been created to mask an obvious deficiency in Arminian theology.

So, I agree that your view describes what most Arminians think except you omitted the prevenient grace part. The question I would have for you, is, how does a spiritually dead man become resurrected in order to respond to the gospel message? Roman Catholics would say that he isn't really spiritually dead, but he's extremely sick, and can still make that choice. Arminians would rely on the prevenient grace view. Reformed theology would teach the regeneration view.

And, as I have said, I have no issue with peaceful Arminians. It's more those who slander and call Reformed theology Satanic that I have issues with.

It's also important to realize that Reformed people believe the exact same number of people will be saved as Arminians..the real question is, why? With the Reformed person, it is totally about God's grace, and God selects to save specific individuals. With the Arminian position, it's about the person making the right choice, and the opportunity for salvation is universal.

One of the slanders I have heard from some individuals is that Reformed people believe a smaller number of people will be saved..not true. They believe the exact same number will be saved, the only issue is why. It seems like people would read a little before they would make such claims.

I'm not talking about the person I'm responding to...just making some comments about the hostile detractors I initially created the thread to address.

Magenta · Mar 31, 2017

sparkman said:

Regarding the first remark, Reformed theology teaches that regeneration preceeds faith and repentance..that God changes the nature so that the elect person will respond in faith to the gospel message. Non-Reformed theology teaches that regeneration follows faith and repentance.

So, does the regenerate person have a choice in the matter? Yes, I believe he does, but the regenerate person is ALWAYS going to say yes to God, and respond to Him in faith, due to the changed nature. The person has already been changed and that is what is enabling him to respond to God. I don't think there is any possibility that this person will reject God, due to the receipt of the new nature.

Regarding the second remark, we are slaves to sin and disobedience prior to salvation. Nature determines behavior. A corrupt nature causes sin and disobedience, and that is why we are sinners. In one sense, we could say the sinner exercises his free will and sins because he behaves according to his nature, but in another sense, the person is enslaved to sin because he can't choose consistently outside of what his nature impels him to do. That is why a heart transformation (spiritual circumcision, regeneration, being born again, receiving a new nature, whatever you want to call it ) is needed in order to respond in faith and repentance.

The new nature wants to please God, and to obey Him. That is the primary operating principle in the life of the Christian. However, there is a remnant of the old nature that God allows to remain and this remnant does cause us to sin in terms of occurrences of sin. However, the overall life of the Christian won't reflect the state of rebellion that unconverted mankind is in.

Regarding whether anything a believer does is pre-determined by God, I view it this way: God actively decrees certain things, and God passively decrees other things. In other words, if God doesn't stop something from happening, such as the individual sinning, in a way he is passively decreeing it. Does that mean God is at fault for a person's sin? No, God is not the author of sin, but he allows it, so in that manner he is passively decreeing it. Why? Sometimes God allows us to suffer the results of our sins so that we learn that sin only leads to suffering and pain, and that we should have believed God in the first place, and not sinned.

And, I don't believe God decides what pair of socks I wear on a given day, or any other such minor issues, but since he doesn't stop me from making those choices, he passively decrees them.

In regards to mankind's sin, as a whole, God allowed mankind to fall into sin, or passively decreed it, I believe, because he wants mankind to learn that they should have obeyed Him all along, and that sin only leads to death and suffering. Additionally, the fact that mankind fell into sin allows us to see God's attributes of justice, forgiveness, love, and mercy more clearly. Justice, in that sin is always punished. Forgiveness, mercy and love, in that he made provision for Christ to die a substitutionary death on our behalf to reconcile himself to us, and to redeem us. I don't think we would know these things about God in the same depth if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned.

Do I think it was God's will for mankind to sin? I think the decision served a purpose..but he didn't cause it directly by making the man to sin.

Sin and its consequences is teaching us....that mankind should have listened to God all along, and that our failure to do so causes suffering and pain, not only for us but mankind in general. Our sin affects the entire community of mankind.

Thank you for your thorough response. I understand/break down God's will into three modes of operation: sovereign, since He can and will do as He pleases; moral, as seen in His character and commandments; and permissive, as He allows us to choose. I find the inclusion of choices outside sin and salvation issues to be somewhat silly (not saying you are silly, just the whole idea that anything else belongs in such a discussion is a detraction). It may be for that reason that I prefer the term self will insofar as it opposes God's will until it is amenable to being aligned with God's will

sparkman · Mar 31, 2017

FreeNChrist said:

There aren't any who repent and have faith that God hasn't regenerated. They are spiritually dead and don't desire salvation whatsoever. They are not seeking God. It is God that draws sinners to Himself.

Read Romans 8-11, especially Romans 9:14-23. It is clear. God is sovereign over salvation. Your very question is addressed in verses 14 and 19. In other words, who the heck are you to judge God in what he does with his salvation? It's a bitter pill to swallow but that's the way it is.

And, I know the Arminian explanation..that this is only about nations and not individuals. However, the context of Romans 8-11 indicates otherwise. Nations were used as an example of election but the context is salvation in general.

There are also the many verses referring to election, being chosen, or predestined in the NT that are clear. They are undeniable. I am bound by Scripture, and not tradition.

I suggest reading John 6, 10, Ephesians 1-2, and Romans 8-10.

FreeNChrist · Mar 31, 2017

sparkman said:

There aren't any who repent and have faith that God hasn't regenerated. They are spiritually dead and don't desire salvation whatsoever. They are not seeking God. It is God that draws sinners to Himself.

Read Romans 8-11, especially Romans 9:14-23. It is clear. God is sovereign over salvation. Your very question is addressed in verses 14 and 19. In other words, who the heck are you to judge God in what he does with his salvation? It's a bitter pill to swallow but that's the way it is.

And, I know the Arminian explanation..that this is only about nations and not individuals. However, the context of Romans 8-11 indicates otherwise. Nations were used as an example of election but the context is salvation in general.

There are also the many verses referring to election, being chosen, or predestined in the NT that are clear. They are undeniable. I am bound by Scripture, and not tradition.

Like I said, you cannot escape the devil you make of God.

sparkman · Mar 31, 2017

Magenta said:

I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about but I view man's "free will" as being like a fish swimming in a pond. He is able to swim within the pond all he wants but he isn't free to jump out of the pond and live on dry land. Man's will is similar; it is confined to a certain arena of decisions. One constraining factor is the man's own nature. He doesn't have the power of contrary choice; the ability to decide against his own nature, in a real manner.

sparkman · Mar 31, 2017

FreeNChrist said:

Does God owe everyone equal entitlement to salvation? The fact that he extends salvation to any is an act of mercy.

And, additionally, do you claim that the Midianite high priest had the same access to God as Moses? I don't think so.

The equal entitlement mentality of Arminians is not one I see supported Scripturally.

I do see the concept of God choosing individuals for salvation supported Scripturally. And, I don't see that choice being determined by the individuals' choice of God, like Arminians claim.

FreeNChrist · Mar 31, 2017

sparkman said:

A god who would mock us by proclaiming over and over again, "believe and you will receive", but then denies us the very ability to believe, is not God, but a devil.

Adstar · Mar 31, 2017

God foreknows everything.. He knows all history and all future in the universe. He knows everyone even before they are born..

John146 · Mar 31, 2017

Adstar said:

Did God foreknow that Nineveh would repent and in turn He would change His mind and not destroy them?

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Adstar · Mar 31, 2017

John146 said:

Did God foreknow that Nineveh would repent and in turn He would change His mind and not destroy them?

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Yes..............

JaumeJ · Mar 31, 2017

More on being foreknown.

Children are "procreated" by their parents.

Do you believe the soul is also procreated?

I do not. The mystery has not been revealed to me, not really, but I have reason to believe all souls were created in heaven.

From there I would not venture to say except that as a child, I had several experiences, one a vision on my bed, of knowing God before actually being in the flesh.

This is not exactly the same as being recognized in this age by the Father after coming to Jesus Christ in faith, hope, and love. I believe that the foreknown mentioned in the Word is a direct reference to each's salvation.Keep in mind the work begun in each of us by God began at the instant each of us accepts His Only Begotten Son.......as Salvation that is.

John146 · Mar 31, 2017

Adstar said:

Did God lie? God said He was going to destroy them in forty days? No ifs....

eternally-gratefull · Mar 31, 2017

God saw events before they happened, He knows a person before they are born.

God did not force people to believe, He died for everyone, All he asks is that we stop trusting self. and trust him.

Those who do will be saved, those who do not will not be saved.

Lets try to make things so complicated.

Adstar · Mar 31, 2017

John146 said:

No God did not lie.. But God made it clear that He is quick to forgive and longsuffering towards us.. You have to take into account the whole Word of God..

valiant · Mar 31, 2017

sparkman said:

All I've seen on this thread is individuals who are making remarks without really interacting with the texts or explanations I've provided.

That's usually about ALL you will see from most anti-Reformed people, because the Reformed position is solid Scripturally. And, as a person who is bound by Scripture, that is why I think it is the most coherent systematic theology.

I am not bound by tradition. By "tradition", I was first a Pelagian, and then an Arminian, as my understanding of Scripture's teaching progressed.

And, by the way, I didn't even know John Calvin's name until my Arminian pastor told me who he was after hearing my explanation of what I was seeing in Scripture. So, charges of indoctrination with regards to me are false. I find it hard to believe that thinking individuals can read the NT without seeing that God chooses for salvation.

The alternative is simply to give YOURSELF a portion of the credit for salvation. YOU are the one who made the right decision, at the very least, and with some people, YOU are the one who keeps your salvation. The focus is on MAN and not on GOD.

While slanderous remarks are made about Reformed theology diminishing man's responsibility, that is absolutely not what Reformed people believe. It is amazing how ignorant those who claim to be authorities on what OTHERS believe are. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt when I say they are ignorant, because there's a distinct possibility that they INTENTIONALLY mislead and slander other perspectives.

The focus of Reformed believers is God's sovereignty in salvation, and giving God ALL THE CREDIT due Him for their salvation. It is also about GRACE..the idea that we can't pat ourselves on the back for making the right decision, or any other merit that we have, in regards to salvation. This is the driving factor behind Reformed thinking, not any desire to avoid accountability.

And, many of those making accusations toward Reformed theology have extremely bad theology themselves. Reformed teachers are well-known for solid exegesis of Scripture. They rarely fall into the nonsense that is part of evangelical Christianity today.

Anyways, provide something worthy of responding to, in terms of interacting with the text, and I'll respond to it.

By the way, it would help the credibility of some if they would learn how to spell. Being as they are such great Christian scholars, maybe they could learn to spell "Calvinism". It is amazing how many professed Bible scholars cannot even spell the word, yet they are authorities on it...it is not spelled "Calvanism". If I claimed to be an expert on a particular topic, I'd at least learn how to spell the words that describe its concepts. I have to laugh when I see alleged experts obviously misspelling basic words relating to their subject of discussion.

I too once believed what Arminians teach, but I came to see that Scripture taught differently.

He has called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began (2 Timthy 1.9).

But when the kindness of God our Saviour,and love of God towards man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. (Tit 3.4-6)

This is the will of Him Who sent me that of all that HE HAS GIVEN ME I should lose nothing, but should raise them up at the last day (Jon 6.39)

He has chosen us in Christ before the world began, having predestined us to adoption as sons - according to the good pleasure of His will (Eph 1.4)

It is quite clear to the unbiassed eye.

valiant · Mar 31, 2017

John146 said:

the 'if' was assumed

John146 · Mar 31, 2017

Adstar said:

I agree. God will show mercy and forgive, but if God said He was going to destroy them in forty days and He ended up not destroying them, you have two choices:

1. God lied because He knew all along He was not going to destroy them, or
2. God did not lie but simply changed His mind based on their response to His word.

Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

John146 · Mar 31, 2017

valiant said:

Don't assume when it comes to God's word. That would be adding to it based upon an ideology. Take it as it stands and believe it.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 31, 2017

John146 said:

Yeah he did, But he still had to warn them, That is what caused them to repent.. and what caused him to relent.

John146 · Mar 31, 2017

valiant said:

David knew full well that God can change His mind by asking the Lord to have grace upon him.

2 Samuel 12
14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.

22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

Does God Foreknow People, or Events, or Both? Which does Romans 8:28-30 refer to?

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