Does God Foreknow People, or Events, or Both? Which does Romans 8:28-30 refer to?

[John146]

Yeah he did, But he still had to warn them, That is what caused them to repent.. and what caused him to relent.

God had every intention of destroying Nineveh because their wickedness had come up before Him.

Jonah 1:2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

Jonah was to preach against Nineveh. It was not a gospel sermon. It was a warning that destruction is coming.

Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

A simple eight word sermon of destruction.

 

[valiant]

A god who would mock us by proclaiming over and over again, "believe and you will receive", but then denies us the very ability to believe, is not God, but a devil.

God does not deny us the ability to believe. We have chosen not to believe. So God then work's faith in those whom He has chosen.

And I would beware of setting my puny mind against God's if I were you.

 

[valiant]

God had every intention of destroying Nineveh because their wickedness had come up before Him.

Jonah 1:2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

Jonah was to preach against Nineveh. It was not a gospel sermon. It was a warning that destruction is coming.

Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

A simple eight word sermon of destruction.

That was what Jonah had to say. But God had in mind all the while what would happen. He had a right to 'change His mind' when the situation altered.

 

[FreeNChrist]

God does not deny us the ability to believe. We have chosen not to believe. So God then work's faith in those whom He has chosen.

And I would beware of setting my puny mind against God's if I were you.

If I were you, I would take my own advice.

 

[Adstar]

God had every intention of destroying Nineveh because their wickedness had come up before Him.

Jonah 1:2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

Jonah was to preach against Nineveh. It was not a gospel sermon. It was a warning that destruction is coming.

Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

A simple eight word sermon of destruction.

If God had determined to destroy Nineveh He would have just destroyed it.. The reason why you send a prophet is to give the people a chance to repent..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God does not deny us the ability to believe. We have chosen not to believe. So God then work's faith in those whom He has chosen.

And I would beware of setting my puny mind against God's if I were you.

thats just a fancy way oof saying God prevents some from believing, But forces others to believe..

And there you go wiht your sarcasm again, DO you ever have anything nice to say to anyone?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If God had determined to destroy Nineveh He would have just destroyed it.. The reason why you send a prophet is to give the people a chance to repent..

He did the same with Moses, When he told Moses he would destroy the people and start over with Moses, And Moses spoke for the people. and claimed Gods promise. And God again relented..

He knows what is going to happen He does it for our benefit..

 

[John146]

That was what Jonah had to say. But God had in mind all the while what would happen. He had a right to 'change His mind' when the situation altered.

If God knew before hand that He was not going to destroy Nineveh, then God lied. I agree, God knew before hand that if Nineveh repents of their wickedness, He in turn would repent. The question was: What was Nineveh's response going to be at hearing of their future destruction? When God saw them repent and heard their cries toward Him, He repented. Simple.

 

[Magenta]

Nineveh was eventually destroyed by the Medes. Read Nahum.

 

[sparkman]

Isaiah 46:9-10 clearly states that God knows the end from the beginning.

Isaiah 46:9-10
Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

There's no logical inconsistency concerning Nineveh. He gave them a warning, that he knew that they would heed. Even Jonah himself knew that he was going to forgive Nineveh..and since Jonah hated Ninevehites he didn't want to see that happen.

Jonah 4:1-3 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly,[SUP][a][/SUP] and he was angry. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he prayed to the Lord and said, “O Lord, is not this what I said when I was yet in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish; for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, and relenting from disaster. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]And the Lord said, “Do you do well to be angry?”

Claiming God doesn't know the future brings one into the arena of Pelagians and open theists. They reduce God to their level so that they can make such claims. It is very idolatrous...attempting to create a "God" in the image of pathetic man. But, actually their position is more consistent logically although it's unbiblical.

 

[John146]

Nineveh was eventually destroyed by the Medes. Read Nahum.

Yep, but it was not in forty days like He declared.

 

[John146]

Isaiah 46:9-10 clearly states that God knows the end from the beginning.

Isaiah 46:9-10
Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

There's no logical inconsistency concerning Nineveh. He gave them a warning, that he knew that they would heed. Even Jonah himself knew that he was going to forgive Nineveh..and since Jonah hated Ninevehites he didn't want to see that happen.

Jonah 4:1-3 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly,[SUP][a][/SUP] and he was angry. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he prayed to the Lord and said, “O Lord, is not this what I said when I was yet in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish; for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, and relenting from disaster. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]And the Lord said, “Do you do well to be angry?”

Claiming God doesn't know the future brings one into the arena of Pelagians and open theists. They reduce God to their level so that they can make such claims. It is very idolatrous...attempting to create a "God" in the image of pathetic man. But, actually their position is more consistent logically although it's unbiblical.

God does know how things are going to end up. It's in His word. He has declared it.

 

[John146]

Isaiah 46:9-10 clearly states that God knows the end from the beginning.

Isaiah 46:9-10
Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

There's no logical inconsistency concerning Nineveh. He gave them a warning, that he knew that they would heed. Even Jonah himself knew that he was going to forgive Nineveh..and since Jonah hated Ninevehites he didn't want to see that happen.

Jonah 4:1-3 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly,[SUP][a][/SUP] and he was angry. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he prayed to the Lord and said, “O Lord, is not this what I said when I was yet in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish; for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, and relenting from disaster. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]And the Lord said, “Do you do well to be angry?”

Claiming God doesn't know the future brings one into the arena of Pelagians and open theists. They reduce God to their level so that they can make such claims. It is very idolatrous...attempting to create a "God" in the image of pathetic man. But, actually their position is more consistent logically although it's unbiblical.

Jonah knew that there was a chance that Nineveh would actually believe God at His message of destruction and in turn repent and cry out to God. Jonah knew if Nineveh repented, God would repent of the destruction He declared unto them. Jonah didn't want to take that chance so he headed in the other direction.

Your view either adds to the word of God or makes God a liar. Can God limit His knowledge when dealing with man? Has God chosen to not remember our sins and iniquities?

 

[Magenta]

Yep, but it was not in forty days like He declared.

True. Still, Nineveh was destroyed, just as Nahum had prophesied.

 

[sparkman]

Jonah knew that there was a chance that Nineveh would actually believe God at His message of destruction and in turn repent and cry out to God. Jonah knew if Nineveh repented, God would repent of the destruction He declared unto them. Jonah didn't want to take that chance so he headed in the other direction.

Your view either adds to the word of God or makes God a liar. Can God limit His knowledge when dealing with man? Has God chosen to not remember our sins and iniquities?

No, your view makes God into a liar. Isaiah 46:9-10 is clear. God cannot limit his knowledge as that would be an imperfection, not a perfection. God is perfect.

Are you a Pelagian, or open theist? I hear similar talk amongst the Pelagian/Moral Government Theology/ Jesse Morrell crowd. Again, it's dragging God down to the level of pathetic man.

Regarding God remembering our sins, this has to do with God taking them into account and condemning us as a result..and, according to Arminian theology, the believer is subject to impending condemnation, just like he was before he was saved.

Let me ask this..Genesis 9:1-2 says that God "remembered" Noah...do you actually think God forgot Noah, that he was floating out there on the Ark and it totally slipped God's mind that Noah was still out there? Scripture employs anthropomorphisms that help humans relate to God. Remember, in this case, has to do with covenantal faithfulness.

 

[sparkman]

Here's a good video by Steve Lawson that describes the assertions I have made:

The Foreknowledge of God by Steven Lawson | March 31, 2017

It gives Scriptures regarding how the word "know" is used in Scripture.

 

[JaumeJ]

Isa 44:7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

God does "appoint" the things that are coming.........believe Him always....

 

[Johnny_B]

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Whosoever will can have salvation.God does the calling and choosing on earth.God had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world,so it is the same as the saints have salvation in the beginning,but it did not happen until the future when people accepted salvation,like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,but did not happen until 4000 years later.

Go and harmonize scriptures,and understand what the Bible says,and stop believing falsehood.

So are you saying that His foreknowledge is what work man did for salvation?

John 1:12-13 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Romans 9:11 "for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls"

Ephesians 1:11, 2:8-9 "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,.......For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

 

[Johnny_B]

Deformed Theology....

I remember when I used to say that, like 20 years ago.

 

[Johnny_B]

All I've seen on this thread is individuals who are making remarks without really interacting with the texts or explanations I've provided.

That's usually about ALL you will see from most anti-Reformed people, because the Reformed position is solid Scripturally. And, as a person who is bound by Scripture, that is why I think it is the most coherent systematic theology.

I am not bound by tradition. By "tradition", I was first a Pelagian, and then an Arminian, as my understanding of Scripture's teaching progressed.

And, by the way, I didn't even know John Calvin's name until my Arminian pastor told me who he was after hearing my explanation of what I was seeing in Scripture. So, charges of indoctrination with regards to me are false. I find it hard to believe that thinking individuals can read the NT without seeing that God chooses for salvation.

The alternative is simply to give YOURSELF a portion of the credit for salvation. YOU are the one who made the right decision, at the very least, and with some people, YOU are the one who keeps your salvation. The focus is on MAN and not on GOD.

While slanderous remarks are made about Reformed theology diminishing man's responsibility, that is absolutely not what Reformed people believe. It is amazing how ignorant those who claim to be authorities on what OTHERS believe are. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt when I say they are ignorant, because there's a distinct possibility that they INTENTIONALLY mislead and slander other perspectives.

The focus of Reformed believers is God's sovereignty in salvation, and giving God ALL THE CREDIT due Him for their salvation. It is also about GRACE..the idea that we can't pat ourselves on the back for making the right decision, or any other merit that we have, in regards to salvation. This is the driving factor behind Reformed thinking, not any desire to avoid accountability.

And, many of those making accusations toward Reformed theology have extremely bad theology themselves. Reformed teachers are well-known for solid exegesis of Scripture. They rarely fall into the nonsense that is part of evangelical Christianity today.

Anyways, provide something worthy of responding to, in terms of interacting with the text, and I'll respond to it.

By the way, it would help the credibility of some if they would learn how to spell. Being as they are such great Christian scholars, maybe they could learn to spell "Calvinism". It is amazing how many professed Bible scholars cannot even spell the word, yet they are authorities on it...it is not spelled "Calvanism". If I claimed to be an expert on a particular topic, I'd at least learn how to spell the words that describe its concepts. I have to laugh when I see alleged experts obviously misspelling basic words relating to their subject of discussion.

You are right not many people really know what Reformed Theology is Scripturally, they say thing that Calvinist and Reformed believer don't believe. I myself do consider myself either, I just believe is Biblical Election. Most people don't even know the depth of justification by faith, I hear dispensationalists say, "just as if I never sinned" to explain justification by faith. What's really interesting is so many people don't know what Reformed believers teach, yet the vast majority of books on Theology are from the Reformed view point, there is next to none from the Arminianism side off the isle. I'm talking about over the years. Amazon says the two top selling books on Systematic Theology, are from the Reformed view point.

I've been trying to find something that is Arminian in the way of Systematic Theology, so I can study their Theology. I can't seem to find something that is up to date or with-in the last 20 years, I'm sure there is something out there I'm just not finding it.

To understand how God must elect men or none would be saved. You need to have a full understanding of sin, which an honest study of the 10 Commandments will do. Once you see the weight of your sin and how much God hates it, you will repent, (for those looking at this, saying, I thought God's election is what saves you. It is, your faith and repentance happen after you are born again. John 3:3 you can't even see the kingdom of God until you are born again). Understanding His wrath helps too.