Does God Foreknow People, or Events, or Both? Which does Romans 8:28-30 refer to?

[sparkman]

Some anti-Reformed elements on the site claim that Calvinism, or Reformed theology, is Satanic in nature. They also try to connect it with Constantine. It seems like Constantine is the boogie man of just about every weird group, including those who deny the full deity of Christ, Judaizers, and those who deny the canon of Scripture, whether he was involved in suppressing their particular heretical views or not.

Intelligent individuals know that Reformed theology has a basis in reasoning from Scripture, whether they agree with it or not, and that Reformed scholars are very conservative in their approach toward Scripture. Their desire is to honor God's sovereignty and to give God the glory for their salvation.

Some anti-Reformed influences here claim that foreknowledge, in the manner that it is used in Romans 8:28-30, refers to events, rather than people or groups. God obviously foreknows all events, but in regards to salvation, God foreknows individuals and not their faith decision, in the passages they attempt to exegete to the contrary.

Look at Romans 8:28-30 and the question is answered simply in the text:

Romans 8:28-30 [SUP]28 [/SUP]And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[SUP][a][/SUP] for those who are called according to his purpose. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [SUP]30 [/SUP]And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Focus on verse 29. Pay attention to the word "who". Does the word "who" imply persons, or does it imply events? The answer is obvious. God foreknows individuals in this context. And, these same persons are predestined, and called, and justified, and ultimately glorified.

This text is known as the golden chain of redemption. It implies that all of those God has foreknown, he also brings them to the completion of their salvation. Salvation is all about God.

Regarding the meaning of the word "foreknowledge", foreknowledge implies an intimate, distinguishing love that God has for that individual, which is different than the love he has for other individuals. For instance, a man loves his wife in a different manner than he loves other women, and Jesus loved the apostle John in a different manner than he loved the other disciples.

"Knowledge" in Scripture often refers to relationship knowledge. For instance, the intimate sex act is referred to repetitively in Scripture as "knowing". Adam knew his wife Eve, and children were a result of this intimate knowledge. In the same manner, God loves with a distinguishing love those who are elect.

Additionally, it is IMPOSSIBLE to get past Scriptural references, which exceed 40 texts in the NT, that clearly state that God chooses, predestines, and elects particular individuals. The concept of being "chosen" clearly indicates that God passes over some, while choosing others. That is what anyone does when they choose amongst various alternatives; they pass over some and choose others.

The cry regarding this is that God is not fair, if salvation is not extended to all. Who are you to judge what is fair? This is EXACTLY the point Paul made in Romans 9:14ff. God shows mercy upon whom he wants. I don't care how much we don't like it, Scripture is clear on this issue. God is sovereign over salvation, and man is not.

And, if fairness is the criteria, every human being deserves eternal punishment. So, by demanding fairness, you would consign every human being to eternal punishment.

At any rate, I would like to make two comments. One, individuals who claim Reformed theology is demonic or Satanic in origin lack charity. Reformed believers are merely responding to their convictions of what Scripture teaches. One such individual claimed that Reformed believers don't believe in man's accountability to God. This is untrue. I have been a Pelagian, and an Arminian, and a Reformed believer. I find no less sense of man's accountability before God amongst Arminians than Reformed believers. All believe that mankind has a responsibility to render obedience to God. Additionally, whether I disagree with someone's view or not on the topic, that doesn't cause me to impute their understanding as being satanic, as this individual does. Two, those who deny that God chooses, predestines, or elects to salvation have a ton of Scriptures to explain if their view is that God doesn't do so. Provide ONE scripture that shows, IN THE CONTEXT OF SALVATION, that God chooses individuals based on their choice of Him. And, Romans 8:28-30 is not proof of that, because the word "who" implies that the foreknowledge is based on the person, and not an event that God foreknows.

And..just to clarify..Reformed theology doesn't teach that mankind makes no choice, like slanderers claim. Reformed theology teaches that God changes the nature of the person through regeneration, or giving that person a new nature, so that the person freely makes the decision which reflects that new nature. In other words, rather than the non-Calvinist model, regeneration precedes faith rather than following it. The individual prior to salvation is a slave to sin, and due to regeneration, the nature is changed so that he can make the faith decision. The decision will always be to place their faith in Jesus due to the changed nature. The corrupted nature can't make that decision.

Also, to be clear, God does have exhaustive foreknowledge and knows all events, as Isaiah 46:9-10 teaches. He not only knows all events, but he actually decrees those events, either actively or passively. God is in control. So, I am not denying that God knows the person's faith decision, however, in regards to salvation, his foreknowledge implies a distinguishing love for that individual, and it is not a result of human merit or worthiness. In fact, God chooses individuals who are nothing in this world's sight. If he were the guy choosing teammates in gym class, he would pick the unathletic, fat, clumsy kids in able to show his glory.

I'll end with this:

I Corinthians 1: 26For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards,[SUP]c[/SUP] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29so that no human being[SUP]d[/SUP] might boast in the presence of God. 30And because of him[SUP]e[/SUP] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

This is why I am a Reformed believer..the opposite view, whether its adherents acknowledge it or not, are boasting in their faith decision. God doesn't even allow that much. He gives the faith to the person as a spiritual gift. Ephesians 2:8-10 clearly states this.

Some will mention that Romans 12:3 indicates that God gives all men faith. They are reading Romans 12 out of context. Notice that God is speaking to believers within the context of the book, and then he addresses other spiritual gifts subsequently. God has given all believers a measure of faith, but there are some believers who have the spiritual gift of faith which exceeds this measure of universal faith that all believers have. So, the claim that God has given all people, converted or unconverted, faith that is sufficient for salvation is a false one.

He has given everyone knowledge of his existence, and of his moral requirements through embedding them in the conscience of mankind, as Romans 1 and 2 state. But, to claim that he has given all mankind saving faith is wrong, and using Romans 12 out of context like this is wrong.

In the end, I have no issue with those who think otherwise, but to attribute their belief system to Satan is a massive error. I realize that most non-Reformed people DON'T claim foolish things like this, though, and I honor their difference of opinion on this issue. Peace.

 

[sparkman]

I'd like to make one correction with my original post.

I said this:

I have been a Pelagian, and an Arminian, and a Reformed believer. I find no less sense of man's accountability before God amongst Arminians than Reformed believers.

I meant this:

I have been a Pelagian, and an Arminian, and a Reformed believer. I find no less sense of man's accountability before God amongst Reformed believers than Arminians.

Also, I realize that there are many believers who wouldn't classify themselves under any of these three views, and I acknowledge that I'm using abstractions that some may not agree with. However, the labels are handy for having this discussion.

And, my basic intention is not to convince anyone of Reformed theology, but to encourage more tolerance. Claiming others follow a Satanic system is a severe lack of charity and is an ignorant approach toward differences of opinion on non-essential doctrinal issues.

 

[FreeNChrist]

"God sees everything in His eternal now, and to watch a man do something is not to make him do it.”

- C S Lewis

 

[sparkman]

"God sees everything in His eternal now, and to watch a man do something is not to make him do it.”

- C S Lewis

Right, I don't believe God makes individuals reject Him; they do it naturally due to their fallen nature.

Believers also don't accept Jesus as Savior and repent of their own resources; it is from God...God grants repentance and gives faith. God regenerates or changes the nature prior to the faith decision. I realize many will disagree with this and consider it counter-intuitive but Scripturally it's what I see.

If you can convince me Scripturally of the opposite view, I'd accept that, but CS Lewis isn't Scripture.

Here's a summary of my position on this, based on what I see in Scripture:

The amazing thing is that God himself gives us faith (Acts 16:14, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Peter 1:1, Philippians 1:29, Acts 3:16) and grants us repentance (Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25). Those who are saved have nothing to boast about whatsoever because of this; it is not about human works (Romans 3:20, 27-28, 4:5, 1 Corinthians 1:31, Galatians 2:16). Salvation is God’s work, and to claim otherwise is to fail to give Him the glory that He deserves.

 

[NayborBear]

Some anti-Reformed elements on the site claim that Calvinism, or Reformed theology, is Satanic in nature. They also try to connect it with Constantine. It seems like Constantine is the boogie man of just about every weird group, including those who deny the full deity of Christ, Judaizers, and those who deny the canon of Scripture, whether he was involved in suppressing their particular heretical views or not.

Intelligent individuals know that Reformed theology has a basis in reasoning from Scripture, whether they agree with it or not, and that Reformed scholars are very conservative in their approach toward Scripture. Their desire is to honor God's sovereignty and to give God the glory for their salvation.

Some anti-Reformed influences here claim that foreknowledge, in the manner that it is used in Romans 8:28-30, refers to events, rather than people or groups. God obviously foreknows all events, but in regards to salvation, God foreknows individuals and not their faith decision, in the passages they attempt to exegete to the contrary.

Look at Romans 8:28-30 and the question is answered simply in the text:

Romans 8:28-30 [SUP]28 [/SUP]And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[SUP][a][/SUP] for those who are called according to his purpose. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [SUP]30 [/SUP]And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Focus on verse 29. Pay attention to the word "who". Does the word "who" imply persons, or does it imply events? The answer is obvious. God foreknows individuals in this context. And, these same persons are predestined, and called, and justified, and ultimately glorified.

This text is known as the golden chain of redemption. It implies that all of those God has foreknown, he also brings them to the completion of their salvation. Salvation is all about God.

Regarding the meaning of the word "foreknowledge", foreknowledge implies an intimate, distinguishing love that God has for that individual, which is different than the love he has for other individuals. For instance, a man loves his wife in a different manner than he loves other women, and Jesus loved the apostle John in a different manner than he loved the other disciples.

"Knowledge" in Scripture often refers to relationship knowledge. For instance, the intimate sex act is referred to repetitively in Scripture as "knowing". Adam knew his wife Eve, and children were a result of this intimate knowledge. In the same manner, God loves with a distinguishing love those who are elect.

Additionally, it is IMPOSSIBLE to get past Scriptural references, which exceed 40 texts in the NT, that clearly state that God chooses, predestines, and elects particular individuals. The concept of being "chosen" clearly indicates that God passes over some, while choosing others. That is what anyone does when they choose amongst various alternatives; they pass over some and choose others.

The cry regarding this is that God is not fair, if salvation is not extended to all. Who are you to judge what is fair? This is EXACTLY the point Paul made in Romans 9:14ff. God shows mercy upon whom he wants. I don't care how much we don't like it, Scripture is clear on this issue. God is sovereign over salvation, and man is not.

And, if fairness is the criteria, every human being deserves eternal punishment. So, by demanding fairness, you would consign every human being to eternal punishment.

At any rate, I would like to make two comments. One, individuals who claim Reformed theology is demonic or Satanic in origin lack charity. Reformed believers are merely responding to their convictions of what Scripture teaches. One such individual claimed that Reformed believers don't believe in man's accountability to God. This is untrue. I have been a Pelagian, and an Arminian, and a Reformed believer. I find no less sense of man's accountability before God amongst Arminians than Reformed believers. All believe that mankind has a responsibility to render obedience to God. Additionally, whether I disagree with someone's view or not on the topic, that doesn't cause me to impute their understanding as being satanic, as this individual does. Two, those who deny that God chooses, predestines, or elects to salvation have a ton of Scriptures to explain if their view is that God doesn't do so. Provide ONE scripture that shows, IN THE CONTEXT OF SALVATION, that God chooses individuals based on their choice of Him. And, Romans 8:28-30 is not proof of that, because the word "who" implies that the foreknowledge is based on the person, and not an event that God foreknows.

And..just to clarify..Reformed theology doesn't teach that mankind makes no choice, like slanderers claim. Reformed theology teaches that God changes the nature of the person through regeneration, or giving that person a new nature, so that the person freely makes the decision which reflects that new nature. In other words, rather than the non-Calvinist model, regeneration precedes faith rather than following it. The individual prior to salvation is a slave to sin, and due to regeneration, the nature is changed so that he can make the faith decision. The decision will always be to place their faith in Jesus due to the changed nature. The corrupted nature can't make that decision.

Also, to be clear, God does have exhaustive foreknowledge and knows all events, as Isaiah 46:9-10 teaches. He not only knows all events, but he actually decrees those events, either actively or passively. God is in control. So, I am not denying that God knows the person's faith decision, however, in regards to salvation, his foreknowledge implies a distinguishing love for that individual, and it is not a result of human merit or worthiness. In fact, God chooses individuals who are nothing in this world's sight. If he were the guy choosing teammates in gym class, he would pick the unathletic, fat, clumsy kids in able to show his glory.

I'll end with this:

I Corinthians 1: 26For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards,[SUP]c[/SUP] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29so that no human being[SUP]d[/SUP] might boast in the presence of God. 30And because of him[SUP]e[/SUP] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

This is why I am a Reformed believer..the opposite view, whether its adherents acknowledge it or not, are boasting in their faith decision. God doesn't even allow that much. He gives the faith to the person as a spiritual gift. Ephesians 2:8-10 clearly states this.

Some will mention that Romans 12:3 indicates that God gives all men faith. They are reading Romans 12 out of context. Notice that God is speaking to believers within the context of the book, and then he addresses other spiritual gifts subsequently. God has given all believers a measure of faith, but there are some believers who have the spiritual gift of faith which exceeds this measure of universal faith that all believers have. So, the claim that God has given all people, converted or unconverted, faith that is sufficient for salvation is a false one.

He has given everyone knowledge of his existence, and of his moral requirements through embedding them in the conscience of mankind, as Romans 1 and 2 state. But, to claim that he has given all mankind saving faith is wrong, and using Romans 12 out of context like this is wrong.

In the end, I have no issue with those who think otherwise, but to attribute their belief system to Satan is a massive error. I realize that most non-Reformed people DON'T claim foolish things like this, though, and I honor their difference of opinion on this issue. Peace.

Allow me, if you will, to clear up in order for you to see through this "issue" you seem to be having regarding Constantine. Having won the battle, and being a believer, he was also, an emperor. An emperor's rule becomes so much easier when there is peace in his realm. In Constantine's effort/s of maintaining a peace, he ordered the Christians to include the pagans and heathens, in effect to play together, and STOP the hostilities against each other! One might even say that Constantine initiated this "church policy", for lack of a better label. He may well have been the first in implementing this policy after the Ascension of Jesus to the Right Hand of His (our) Father, but he wasn't the last! Some more learned "church historians" may have dates, times, and names of the people involved, in future implementations of this policy, better then I.

Fact is, Constantine, may well have been using a "punishment", used by Jehovah, when God sent the "children of Israel" into captivity. Although, I am fairly certain "peace, NOT punishment", was the what Constantine was looking for. What Constantine did achieve in collateral damages, was apostasy "in the name of peace"! Doesn't the Bible warn believers of people like this? Which should cause people called by God's Name to become and maintain, an "EVER FAITHFUL" attitude, and lifestyle. (I wrote this upon reading only the first paragraph...Felt I had to address this...Now unto the rest of your post...)

There are "enough" believers (if you will), that will lay claim to what you wrote, that ANY dabblings, in the "unseen", are, to them, anyways, rather, if not totally demonic, at least demonic enough, in their eyes, something to stay away from, and teach other's to do the same! Which does lend much credence to God's instilling "more" gifts, into some believers, more then others. Man's vanity, machoism, alpha male, jealousy, envy, pride, er whatever one may wish to label it, ego, comes to mind as well, is usually "a" why people "frown" upon others, to a point of a demonization.

Every believer is at least "knowledgeable" of "an earth age"! What some believers are not cognizant of, is there is also an Heaven Age, running similteaniously, at the same time with this earth age. To one who has been given more of His gifts, let's call these ones, pre-destined, it's like being a fire fighter who runs TO the fire, not away from it! Why you might ask?.....It's because they have been in similiar circumstances.....BEFORE! I'll even go a step er so further in my saying that, like, there are some species of trees, who's "seeds" will not even germinate, UNTIL, AFTER the forest has been ravished by fire! And, so it is with some of God's children, who's gift/s remain in dormancy until, it gets HOT ENOUGHduring "an" earth/heaven age to even germinate!

Having said this,a believer's striving to "balance" one, with the other? Detracts from both! Like the Apostle Paul stated, "I wouldst rather every man call me a liar!" The hardest, or "a" harder part of having been enriched with more, is more akin to 1 of Jesus' parables concerning the farmer hiring workers for his fields. The ones hired towards the end of the day, being paid the same as those who were hired when the sun was fresh in the sky!

Bottom line is, We BOTH, needs each other in this WAR!

 

[Locutus]

I would never defend Deformed Theology....

 

[NayborBear]

I think there's "merits" in many different denominations! Calvanism, is just 1. Blind men describing an elephant! So to speak!

 

[jaybird88]

It seems like Constantine is the boogie man of just about every weird group, including those who deny the full deity of Christ, Judaizers, and those who deny the canon of Scripture, whether he was involved in suppressing their particular heretical views or not.

how dare anyone question the canon of scripture, when the roman councils decided what scriptures to read we should put our full faith in those councils, they may have gave us the crusades, inquisitions, and burned entire villages to the ground but thats not important, trust the councils!
Constantine a boogie man? no way, he murdered his wife, son, and made war where thousands lost their lives for his own vanity, a shining example for Christians, we were lucky to have him lead the first roman councils.

 

[NayborBear]

how dare anyone question the canon of scripture, when the roman councils decided what scriptures to read we should put our full faith in those councils, they may have gave us the crusades, inquisitions, and burned entire villages to the ground but thats not important, trust the councils!
Constantine a boogie man? no way, he murdered his wife, son, and made war where thousands lost their lives for his own vanity, a shining example for Christians, we were lucky to have him lead the first roman councils.

 

[valiant]

how dare anyone question the canon of scripture, when the roman councils decided what scriptures to read we should put our full faith in those councils,

what a childish comment, and totally untrue. The councils did not decide what should be read as Scripture. That was done by the early church before the councils considered the matter. The councils merely ratified it, and they did it on the basis of Apostolic authority

they may have gave us the crusades, inquisitions, and burned entire villages to the ground but thats not important, trust the councils!

there were hundreds of councils of various types and hues, many representing different churches ad viewpoints. Which did what? LOL

Constantine a boogie man? no way, he murdered his wife, son, and made war where thousands lost their lives for his own vanity, a shining example for Christians, we were lucky to have him lead the first roman councils.

Actually he didn't lead them. They occurred before his time. And even the ones he sought to influence did not all fall in line with his wishes. He was an observer, not a dictator. YOU JUST DON'T KNOW YOUR CHURCH HISTORY!!!!

 

[JesusRules1]

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Whosoever will can have salvation.God does the calling and choosing on earth.God had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world,so it is the same as the saints have salvation in the beginning,but it did not happen until the future when people accepted salvation,like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,but did not happen until 4000 years later.

Go and harmonize scriptures,and understand what the Bible says,and stop believing falsehood.

 

[sparkman]

All I've seen on this thread is individuals who are making remarks without really interacting with the texts or explanations I've provided.

That's usually about ALL you will see from most anti-Reformed people, because the Reformed position is solid Scripturally. And, as a person who is bound by Scripture, that is why I think it is the most coherent systematic theology.

I am not bound by tradition. By "tradition", I was first a Pelagian, and then an Arminian, as my understanding of Scripture's teaching progressed.

And, by the way, I didn't even know John Calvin's name until my Arminian pastor told me who he was after hearing my explanation of what I was seeing in Scripture. So, charges of indoctrination with regards to me are false. I find it hard to believe that thinking individuals can read the NT without seeing that God chooses for salvation.

The alternative is simply to give YOURSELF a portion of the credit for salvation. YOU are the one who made the right decision, at the very least, and with some people, YOU are the one who keeps your salvation. The focus is on MAN and not on GOD.

While slanderous remarks are made about Reformed theology diminishing man's responsibility, that is absolutely not what Reformed people believe. It is amazing how ignorant those who claim to be authorities on what OTHERS believe are. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt when I say they are ignorant, because there's a distinct possibility that they INTENTIONALLY mislead and slander other perspectives.

The focus of Reformed believers is God's sovereignty in salvation, and giving God ALL THE CREDIT due Him for their salvation. It is also about GRACE..the idea that we can't pat ourselves on the back for making the right decision, or any other merit that we have, in regards to salvation. This is the driving factor behind Reformed thinking, not any desire to avoid accountability.

And, many of those making accusations toward Reformed theology have extremely bad theology themselves. Reformed teachers are well-known for solid exegesis of Scripture. They rarely fall into the nonsense that is part of evangelical Christianity today.

Anyways, provide something worthy of responding to, in terms of interacting with the text, and I'll respond to it.

By the way, it would help the credibility of some if they would learn how to spell. Being as they are such great Christian scholars, maybe they could learn to spell "Calvinism". It is amazing how many professed Bible scholars cannot even spell the word, yet they are authorities on it...it is not spelled "Calvanism". If I claimed to be an expert on a particular topic, I'd at least learn how to spell the words that describe its concepts. I have to laugh when I see alleged experts obviously misspelling basic words relating to their subject of discussion.

 

[sparkman]

As an additional remark, I don't fixate on defending Reformed theology like some Reformed people do. This thread is basically in response to uninformed slanders concerning Reformed believers on the site. There are some non-Reformed people who aren't works oriented, and I respect their position, especially the ones who understand eternal security. Others hold a blatantly works oriented view of salvation that I call "fear and condemnation salvation", and I would disagree strongly with them.

Basically "fear and condemnation" people believe that salvation is merely a pardon, and that the believer is "on parole" and subject to being thrown back in the slammer again..that they are still subject to the condemnation of God. Pelagians are an example of them. Those individuals are heretics, and I have no affinity with them.

However, I don't have issues with non-Reformed believers who aren't in the Pelagian-mentality camp.

 

[sparkman]

how dare anyone question the canon of scripture, when the roman councils decided what scriptures to read we should put our full faith in those councils, they may have gave us the crusades, inquisitions, and burned entire villages to the ground but thats not important, trust the councils!
Constantine a boogie man? no way, he murdered his wife, son, and made war where thousands lost their lives for his own vanity, a shining example for Christians, we were lucky to have him lead the first roman councils.

The decisions of the council didn't reflect Constantine's views...Constantine was an Arian and denied the full deity of Jesus. The bishops at Nicaea, about 300 in number, were composed of many men who suffered extreme persecution, including having body parts removed by their persecutors. They were not compromisers.

I can see how an anti-Trinitarian like yourself would seek to disparage the councils, though, since your heretical views were refuted by church councils.

 

[Magenta]

Reformed theology doesn't teach that mankind makes no choice, like slanderers claim. Reformed theology teaches that God changes the nature of the person through regeneration, or giving that person a new nature, so that the person freely makes the decision which reflects that new nature. In other words, rather than the non-Calvinist model, regeneration precedes faith rather than following it. The individual prior to salvation is a slave to sin, and due to regeneration, the nature is changed so that he can make the faith decision. The decision will always be to place their faith in Jesus due to the changed nature. The corrupted nature can't make that decision.

Hello sparkman I found the above interesting, because one of the people who used to defend reformed theology here always claimed we had no choice in the matter, which did strike me as ridiculous, and further claimed, that anything anyone did was the express will of God, which struck me as completely repugnant, since that ascribed all humanity's evil to Him. I am glad to have you clear up the first part. Could you please speak to the second part? Thank you

 

[sparkman]

how dare anyone question the canon of scripture, when the roman councils decided what scriptures to read we should put our full faith in those councils, they may have gave us the crusades, inquisitions, and burned entire villages to the ground but thats not important, trust the councils!
Constantine a boogie man? no way, he murdered his wife, son, and made war where thousands lost their lives for his own vanity, a shining example for Christians, we were lucky to have him lead the first roman councils.

By the way, you join the ranks of atheists, Muslims, cultists, Sabbatarians, and those who reject the canon of Scripture in your remarks..they all fixate on criticizing the councils of the church.

Constantine actually only presided over the Council at Nicaea so I am not sure where you are getting your "councils" remark. And, as I said previously, his views are not the ones that the council decided were orthodox. He was an Arian, rejecting the full deity of Jesus, and the council affirmed Jesus' deity.

So, in reality, Constantine was more like you..an anti-Trinitarian..so don't be so hard on him

And, if I had my way, I'd kick every anti-Trinitarian off the site, except younger believers who don't know any better and need proper instruction on the doctrine.

 

[JaumeJ]

There is a gospel tune called "Whossoever Will to the Lord May Come." I have always believed this to be true.

When we turn to God in Jesus Christ while in this age, we become known by God. Not being yet in the Kingdom, you may say honestly we are foreknown by Him.

Do you know anyone who has seen His face? No man has seen God, but when we come to Him by Jesus Christ He knows us long before we are with Him in the Kingdom.

It is a twisted notion to believe all who are saved were "forknown" before cration: wju a meed fpr Cjrost¡s agpmu of we were añreadu saved¿

 

[John146]

Right, I don't believe God makes individuals reject Him; they do it naturally due to their fallen nature.

Believers also don't accept Jesus as Savior and repent of their own resources; it is from God...God grants repentance and gives faith. God regenerates or changes the nature prior to the faith decision. I realize many will disagree with this and consider it counter-intuitive but Scripturally it's what I see.

If you can convince me Scripturally of the opposite view, I'd accept that, but CS Lewis isn't Scripture.

Here's a summary of my position on this, based on what I see in Scripture:

The amazing thing is that God himself gives us faith (Acts 16:14, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Peter 1:1, Philippians 1:29, Acts 3:16) and grants us repentance (Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25). Those who are saved have nothing to boast about whatsoever because of this; it is not about human works (Romans 3:20, 27-28, 4:5, 1 Corinthians 1:31, Galatians 2:16). Salvation is God’s work, and to claim otherwise is to fail to give Him the glory that He deserves.

Scripture gives us the order of how a man is regenerated by the Holy Spirit:

Ephesians 1
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1. Hear the gospel of your salvation, the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for sins.
2. Trust/believe that gospel for salvation
3. Holy Spirit seals you for the day of redemption which is the adoption as a child of God(Romans 8:23, Ephesians 1:5), being conformed to the image of Christ. Your soul is made a new creature that's waiting for the body to be redeemed. The redemption is a future thing.

 

[sparkman]

Hello sparkman I found the above interesting, because one of the people who used to defend reformed theology here always claimed we had no choice in the matter, which did strike me as ridiculous, and further claimed, that anything anyone did was the express will of God, which struck me as completely repugnant, since that ascribed all humanity's evil to Him. I am glad to have you clear up the first part. Could you please speak to the second part? Thank you

Regarding the first remark, Reformed theology teaches that regeneration preceeds faith and repentance..that God changes the nature so that the elect person will respond in faith to the gospel message. Non-Reformed theology teaches that regeneration follows faith and repentance.

So, does the regenerate person have a choice in the matter? Yes, I believe he does, but the regenerate person is ALWAYS going to say yes to God, and respond to Him in faith, due to the changed nature. The person has already been changed and that is what is enabling him to respond to God. I don't think there is any possibility that this person will reject God, due to the receipt of the new nature.

Regarding the second remark, we are slaves to sin and disobedience prior to salvation. Nature determines behavior. A corrupt nature causes sin and disobedience, and that is why we are sinners. In one sense, we could say the sinner exercises his free will and sins because he behaves according to his nature, but in another sense, the person is enslaved to sin because he can't choose consistently outside of what his nature impels him to do. That is why a heart transformation (spiritual circumcision, regeneration, being born again, receiving a new nature, whatever you want to call it ) is needed in order to respond in faith and repentance.

The new nature wants to please God, and to obey Him. That is the primary operating principle in the life of the Christian. However, there is a remnant of the old nature that God allows to remain and this remnant does cause us to sin in terms of occurrences of sin. However, the overall life of the Christian won't reflect the state of rebellion that unconverted mankind is in.

Regarding whether anything a believer does is pre-determined by God, I view it this way: God actively decrees certain things, and God passively decrees other things. In other words, if God doesn't stop something from happening, such as the individual sinning, in a way he is passively decreeing it. Does that mean God is at fault for a person's sin? No, God is not the author of sin, but he allows it, so in that manner he is passively decreeing it. Why? Sometimes God allows us to suffer the results of our sins so that we learn that sin only leads to suffering and pain, and that we should have believed God in the first place, and not sinned.

And, I don't believe God decides what pair of socks I wear on a given day, or any other such minor issues, but since he doesn't stop me from making those choices, he passively decrees them.

In regards to mankind's sin, as a whole, God allowed mankind to fall into sin, or passively decreed it, I believe, because he wants mankind to learn that they should have obeyed Him all along, and that sin only leads to death and suffering. Additionally, the fact that mankind fell into sin allows us to see God's attributes of justice, forgiveness, love, and mercy more clearly. Justice, in that sin is always punished. Forgiveness, mercy and love, in that he made provision for Christ to die a substitutionary death on our behalf to reconcile himself to us, and to redeem us. I don't think we would know these things about God in the same depth if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned.

Do I think it was God's will for mankind to sin? I think the decision served a purpose..but he didn't cause it directly by making the man to sin.

Sin and its consequences is teaching us....that mankind should have listened to God all along, and that our failure to do so causes suffering and pain, not only for us but mankind in general. Our sin affects the entire community of mankind.

 

[FreeNChrist]

And what of those who God does not regenerate before they repent and have faith? You cannot escape the devil you make of God.