Sabbath

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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,230
6,526
113
Nice, informative post Beta.

It seems the Holy Spirit is moving among us. Today I have been thinking how many people will say we do not need to do some, whateever they choose, of what Jesus did because He was "under the law."

These folks are doing the same to those who wish to be obedient children.,

Like Jesus Christ, we are not under the law. If those folks would just read all of the Word they would LEARN that Jesus was perfect and He obeyed all of the law according to His teaching in the Gospel, for there are may laws He simply ignored in favor of mercy, justice and faith.

For instance when He was teachin g on an eye for an eye,, with mercy this becomes turn the other hceek. Love thy enemy... He brokered the aquittal of teh woman caught in adultery granting mercy in place of her being stoned to death...

Like Jesus, we are not under the law, but we do as He did as best given us to be able. We know where we fail we are forgiven because Jesus did all perfectly for each of us. We do not need to excuse ourselves by crying grace-only, grace one, for we live in His mercy daily and His gra`ce is fresh every morning. Praise Jesus Christ.


It is very interesting how 'christians stress the fact we are not 'told, instructed, commanded to observe Sabbath 7th day....as if they would then keep it since they are only waiting for a command from God ! who are they kidding ? They have NO command to keep sunday yet they do.

What we have in the NT is JESUS keeping the Sabbath and so will those who follow Him and walk with Him....when you do that you don't need to be 'told, instructed or commanded to do so. All their claim to 'love Jesus' yet not walking with Him is 'total hyprocisy !!!


You see, moving on from the OT when people were commanded to 'obey God under pain of death' we now in the NT have a far better way, a new and living way of actually walking with Christ who kept all His Fathers Commandments. That is surely something worth taking up !!!
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
332
83
Hi Beta,

Absolutely, the sad thing is that they have already been given the commandment. Why would God need to give it again :rolleyes:. If they do not believe God the first time why would the believe God the second time. Any excuse not to follow God's Word.

God bless
It would seem that they do not regard the original Commandments were given to christians but Israel only...and this could lead to their mis-understandings....because we see from the scriptures that any STRANGER (non-israelite) had to 'associate themselves closely with Israel in order to come under the same law as one 'home-born Ex 12....if they did not have that close association they were not considered as God's people.
So what we have in the NT is 'christians keeping themselves ''separate from Israel and NOT associating with them in any way THUS keeping up the partition removed by Christ so we can all be ONE people and One law....esp the Sabbath....it is definitely their 'stumbling stone.
What do you think LGF ?
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
Let us humble ourselves and love all regardless... we were once without light and sat in darkness.

Remember that the Jewish people keep Sabbath... but it is in vain without Faith that worketh love... law of liberty. To love Heavenly Father and the Messiah because they loved us First.

Our First love is not looking for us to be haughty but meek and humble always... knowing by Grace we are saved to worship in Spirit and Truth.

Many believe the 10 Commandments of GOD can not be seperated from the law of Moses..

We know that they can because of our High Priest who was able to overcome sin and offered Himself as our sacrifice.

Worthy is the Lamb indeed.

Now by the Testimony of our Lord and Saviour we learn that we are to Teach and Keep even the least Commandment and we have been taught the Royal law:


Matthew 22:36-40King James Version (KJV)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Heavenly Father loves it when we set our heart to obey... He will do the rest from then on... putting one of flesh and not
stone.

Engrafting on our inwards what he wrote on stone.





 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
332
83
Nice, informative post Beta.

It seems the Holy Spirit is moving among us. Today I have been thinking how many people will say we do not need to do some, whateever they choose, of what Jesus did because He was "under the law."

These folks are doing the same to those who wish to be obedient children.,

Like Jesus Christ, we are not under the law. If those folks would just read all of the Word they would LEARN that Jesus was perfect and He obeyed all of the law according to His teaching in the Gospel, for there are may laws He simply ignored in favor of mercy, justice and faith.

For instance when He was teachin g on an eye for an eye,, with mercy this becomes turn the other hceek. Love thy enemy... He brokered the aquittal of teh woman caught in adultery granting mercy in place of her being stoned to death...

Like Jesus, we are not under the law, but we do as He did as best given us to be able. We know where we fail we are forgiven because Jesus did all perfectly for each of us. We do not need to excuse ourselves by crying grace-only, grace one, for we live in His mercy daily and His gra`ce is fresh every morning. Praise Jesus Christ.
With the sacrifice and help of our Savior we can walk a new way in the NT that was not possible under the old law when people only had 'rituals to help them....and even they were abolished Eph 2v15; Col 2v14. All we have to do today is 'walk with Jesus 24/7 and all will be well ! For that to happen we must give up sunday-observance because it follows another god !
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
332
83
Let us humble ourselves and love all regardless... we were once without light and sat in darkness.

Remember that the Jewish people keep Sabbath... but it is in vain without Faith that worketh love... law of liberty. To love Heavenly Father and the Messiah because they loved us First.

Our First love is not looking for us to be haughty but meek and humble always... knowing by Grace we are saved to worship in Spirit and Truth.

Many believe the 10 Commandments of GOD can not be seperated from the law of Moses..

We know that they can because of our High Priest who was able to overcome sin and offered Himself as our sacrifice.

Worthy is the Lamb indeed.

Now by the Testimony of our Lord and Saviour we learn that we are to Teach and Keep even the least Commandment and we have been taught the Royal law:


Matthew 22:36-40King James Version (KJV)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Heavenly Father loves it when we set our heart to obey... He will do the rest from then on... putting one of flesh and not
stone.

Engrafting on our inwards what he wrote on stone.
Indeed, it is another problem for christians who do not put difference between holy and unholy Lev 10v10....between holy spiritual Commandments of God and carnal temporary commandments of Moses. What they FAIL to do is to see that GOD makes that difference HIMSELF Deut 5v22 when He gave the 10 and added no more !!!
There is definitely a 'separation that only the 'obedient will hear....and they will live ! the children of dis-obedience are yet dead in tresspass and sin....not yet quickened. Let us pray they can be awakened Eph 5v14; Rom 13v11.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,865
26,032
113
Acts 15 (KJV)

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6
And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.


7
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.


8
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;


9
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.


10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?


11
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.


12
Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.


13
And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:


14
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.


15
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,


16
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:


17
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.


18
Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.


19
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:


20
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.


21
For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.


22
Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:


23
And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.


24
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


25
It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,


26
Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.


27
We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.


28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;


29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
Hi SOF,

I am assuming you must of been tired when you where writing the above? No we are not teaching the laws of Moses on the Sabbath. You do know the context of chapter 15 you quoted above is that the Jewish believers were teaching that the Christian believers needed to be circumcised in order to be saved which is referring to the ceremonial law Moses right?

Act 15:1,

And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Rom 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

We must obey the Word of God over the traditions and teachings of man. Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments.

No where does it say in God's Word that;

1. Jesus is the Sabbath and
2. We no longer need to keep God's 4th commandment a Holy day as Jesus commanded
3. We need to worship God on Sunday

These are the teachings and traditions of man in place of the Word of God. We must follow Jesus because we love him. Who do we love Jesus and the Word of God of the traditions and teachings of man? I love Jesus how about you?

God bless
You can assume anything you like. I was wondering if Moses is still read in your Synagogue? I assume that you would keep all the requirements of the Jewish Sabbath, being a good Jew.

I'm not a Jew, but my husband is, yet he too is born again and Spirit filled and knows the law no longer has power over the body of Christ. For having the very Spirit of Christ within, we are led by Him.

You can parrot those paragraphs all you like, but they have no weight of condemnation on anyone.

Also, you do not fulfill the law of Christ with trying to put a yoke on His own.
 
Jun 5, 2017
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It would seem that they do not regard the original Commandments were given to christians but Israel only...and this could lead to their mis-understandings....because we see from the scriptures that any STRANGER (non-israelite) had to 'associate themselves closely with Israel in order to come under the same law as one 'home-born Ex 12....if they did not have that close association they were not considered as God's people.
So what we have in the NT is 'christians keeping themselves ''separate from Israel and NOT associating with them in any way THUS keeping up the partition removed by Christ so we can all be ONE people and One law....esp the Sabbath....it is definitely their 'stumbling stone.
What do you think LGF ?
Absolutely Beta,

It should not be a stumbling block though to anyone that truly wants to know Jesus and his truth however if anyone wants to ask Jesus and seeks him through His Word (John 14:26;16:13;7:17 etc). It is very clear in God's Word that the word "Israel" was give by God himself to Jacob as he wrestled with the Angel to represent His people (Gen 32:28). It was a name given by God himself to Jacob representing God's people meaning is "He shall rule as God". True Israel (God's people) will rule as God. Spiritual Israel is God's people today that follow Jesus through His Word.

[FONT=&quot]Gal 3:28-29, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Col 3:11,
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Rom 10:11-13, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 2:28-29, For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 2:12,
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as

If you are not spiritual Israel then the new covenant is not for you....
[/FONT] Heb 8:10-12 ,
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

If you do not see God's Word as being for you then you cannot be a part of spiritual Israel and the New Covenant.

God bless
 
Apr 15, 2017
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Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The physical ordinances were contrary to us,because they have no bearing on spiritual salvation,and was temporary until Christ came,and then He nailed them to His cross taking them out of the way.

They could not have the Spirit to live up to the spiritual laws,laws of love,moral laws,so God had them do physical ordinances until Christ came to keep them right with Him,and then Christ caused them to cease.

That which is natural is first,then that which is spiritual.

Jesus said man was not made for the sabbath,but the sabbath was made for man,and was a physical day of rest celebrating the creation of this world,and God resting on the 7th day,so people rested on the 7th day from their labors of work that was in their interest,for they could still do works that were in the interest of other people,like help them with an animal that fell in a hole,feed people,and such good deeds,for Jesus did that on the sabbath,and said,He is Lord of the sabbath,and labored everyday when it came to the welfare of people in the needs department.

Let no one tell you to keep the physical sabbath day for Jesus took it out of the way,for it is spiritual in the New Testament.

Paul said we do not void out the law through faith,but we establish the law,and the law is spiritual,holy,just,and good,the laws of love,and moral laws.

The ten commandments are spiritual laws,do not offend God,do not offend people,so they must be obeyed in the New Testament,including the sabbath.

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Jesus went to prepare a place for us,that where He is at we may also be there,and He went away from the earth.

When a person receives the Spirit they receive a spiritual rest,and they celebrate the creation that Jesus went to prepare for the saints,and this rest is everyday,as opposed to one day a week of the physical sabbath.

We are keeping the sabbath in the New Testament when we receive the Spirit,for then we are receiving that spiritual rest,and celebrating the creation of the spiritual kingdom,the New Jerualem.

That which is first is natural,then that which is spiritual,and it is spiritual in the New Testament,so it is a spiritual sabbath now by the Spirit,for we have to obey the sabbath,but it is a spiritual rest now.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

We are not of this world when we have the Spirit,but of the world that God prepared for the saints,so why would we celebrate,and keep the physical sabbath that is associated with this world,but we keep the sabbath that is associated with the next world,the New Jerusalem.
 
Jun 5, 2017
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Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Hi MattforJesus,

This one is just for you. You must of missed it as you did not reply to it. I hope this will help you in the future.


Col 2:14-17,
[SUP]14[/SUP]Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; [SUP]15[/SUP], And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. [SUP]16[/SUP] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath day(s): [SUP]17[/SUP], which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
The context is verse 14 which is the blotting out of the handwriting of ordinances to the cross. What is the handwriting of ordinancesthat were nailed to the cross? The Greek work used here is δόγμα dogma dog'-mah From the base of G1380; law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree; V16 Omit “the”not used in the Greek; Sabbath days is plural; Sabbaton meaning cease from secular work; rest)

Scripture points:

· Blotting out or nailing the handwriting of ordinances to the cross (v14)
· The cross triumphing over principalities and powers (v 15)
· No one to Judge you in meat and drink, holy days, new moon of the sabbath day(s) (v16)
· Which are a Shadow of things to come (v17)

So it is clear the context of Col 2:16-17 is the completion of the civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical laws of Moses which the writer says is finished and nailed to the cross.

Here is the actual Greek to English translation of the Col 2:16-17 verses from the interlinear:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Not therefore anyone you let judge in regards to food or in regards to drink or in regards to a feast (or festival) or a new moon or a Sabbath (plural).[SUP] 17[/SUP] which are a shadow of things coming but body of Christ.

The word rendered "holy-day" - ἑορτὴ heortē - in the Greek means a "feast" or "festival;"
Now, notice the key context within Col 2:16-17; No one is to judge you in regards to meat or drink, a feast (festival), or of the New Moon or of sabbath(s).

The Greek word for sabbath used G4521; σάββατο; sabbaton which means to cease from secular labor, stop work, rest.

Context within Col 2:16-17:

(1) meat or drink
(2) feast or festival
(3) new moons
(4) sabbath(s)

So the overall context of Col 2:14-17 is in judging in regards to meat and drink, feast days (festivals), new moons and sabbath(s) that are a part of the civil, ceremonial, ecclesiastical laws of Moses (v 14)

Col 2 is talking about the ceremonial laws from Moses that referred to the annual festivals of Lev 23; Deut 10; Num 27 and 28. Now let’s have a look at the Old Testament scriptures to see what Col 2 is talking about. Remember the overall context is in regards to meat and drink, feast days (festivals), new moons and sabbath(s) that are a part of the civil, ceremonial, ecclesiastical laws of Moses that were completed and nailed to the cross. If we can find references to the above context it will help us to understand what Col 2:14-17 is talking about because these are Shadows that pointed to Jesus.

Old Testament references to Col 2:14-17; Line upon Line Precept upon Precept:


Col 2:16-17,
Let no man therefore judge you in (1) meat, or in drink, or in respect of an (2) feast, or of the (3) new moon, or of the (4) sabbath(s): Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Eze 45:17-21,

It shall be the prince’s duty to furnish the (1) burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the (2) feasts, the (3) new moons, and the (4) Sabbaths, at all the appointed (3) feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel. Thus says the Lord GOD; In the first month, in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and cleanse the sanctuary: And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court. And so thou shalt do the seventh day of the month for every one that erred, and for him that is simple: so shall ye reconcile the house. In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the Passover, a Feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

1Ch 23:31

and whenever burnt offerings were presented to the LORD on the (4) Sabbaths, at the (3) New Moon (2) feasts and at the appointed festivals. They were to serve before the LORD regularly in the proper number and in the way prescribed for them.

2Ch 2:4,
Now I am about to build a temple for the Name of the LORD my God and to dedicate it to him for burning fragrant incense before him, for setting out the consecrated bread regularly, and for making burnt offerings every morning and evening and on the (4) Sabbaths, at the (3) New Moons and at the appointed (2) festivals of the LORD our God. This is a lasting ordinance for Israel.

Hos 2:11,

I will stop all her celebrations: her (2) yearly festivals, her (3) New Moons, her (4) Sabbaths and all her (2) appointed festivals.

It is interesting to note in the Old Testament the word Sabbath (shabbath 7676 from shabath 7673 meaning “rest”) is not only used for the weekly Sabbath but is also applied to the first and last days of the annual Jewish Festivals. The Greek Word used in Col 2:16 is Sabbaton meaning to cease from secular work; rest.

The monthly New Moon Sabbaths in relation to these festivals could fall on any day of the week. These were to start the beginning of the annual Jewish feasts. They were to be rest (Sabbath) days and restricted or no work was to be done. (Lev 23; Num 10; 28; 29)

High Sabbaths, in most Christian and Messianic Jewish usage, are seven annual Biblical festivals and rest days, recorded in the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy.This is an extension of the term "high day" found in the King James Version at John 19:31-42. The seven festivals do not necessarily occur on weekly Shabbat (seventh-day Sabbath) and are called by the name miqra ("called assembly") in Hebrew (Lev. 23). They are observed by Jews and a minority of Christians. Three of them occur in spring: the first and seventh days of Pesach (Passover), and Shavuot (Pentecost) which occurs in summer. Three occur in fall, in the seventh month, and are also called shabbaton: Rosh Hashanah (Trumpets); Yom Kippur, the "Sabbath of Sabbaths" (Atonement); and the first and eighth days of Sukkoth (Tabernacles). Sometimes the word shabbaton is extended to mean all seven festivals. The Gospel of John says of the night immediately following Christ's burial that "that sabbath day was a high day" (19:31-42). That night was Nisan 15, just after the first day of Passover week (Unleavened Bread) and an annual miqra and rest day, in most chronologies. (In other systems, it was Nisan 14, i.e., weekly but not annual Sabbath.) The King James Version may thus be the origin of naming the annual rest days "High Sabbaths" in English (source: wiki).


All of the above have their origin from the ceremonial laws of Moses found in Lev 23; Num 10; 28; 29.
All these references are in connection to; (1) Food and Drink offerings, (2) Feast days, (3) New Moons and (4) annual feast Sabbath(s)

So in summary, it should be very clear that Col 2:14-17 is referring to the ceremonial laws of Moses along with the annual Jewish feast days that all pointed to the coming of Jesus. When Jesus died on the cross the Jewish feasts along with the food and drink offerings, festivals and New Moon festival Sabbath(s) which all pointed to Jesus where a shadow of things to come. Many of the feast days in Lev 23 were were none work days in the Greek Col 2:16 were Sabbaton cease from secular work.


Col 2:14-17 is referring to the ceremonial laws of Moses in the annual ceremonial Feast days of Lev 23; Deut and Numbers that all pointed to Jesus and were nailed to the Cross including the annual new moon feast Sabbaths that could fall on any day of the week.

Line upon line and Precept upon precept.....


God's 7th Day Sabbath commandment (Ex 20:8-11) and the annual ceremonial Sabbaths for feast days of Col 2:14-17


What is the difference between God’s 4[SUP]th[/SUP] commandment and the annual feast sabbath(s) of Col 2:16-17? To answer this question you need to understand the difference between God’s Law (10 commandments) and the laws of Moses. Let’s have a look at what that Word of God says.
God’s Law (10 commandments) had a similar (not same) role is it did in the Old Testament as it does in the New and that is;

God’s Law (10 commandments) had a similar (not same) role is it did in the Old Testament as it does in the New and that is to


(1) point out what sin is and the punishment of sin which is death (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4). It was never a cure for sin. But it was the work of God which is forever and the foundation of the Old Covenant, the New Covenant and the Judgement to come.

Scripture proof:
Ex 32:16; Ex 31:18; 31:18; Ex 20:1-22; Deut 10:5; Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4; Rom 6:23; Heb 7:19; Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31; Ps 111:7-8; Rev 12:17; 14:12; 22:14; 1John 3:5-8; 1John 2:3-4; Ecc 3:14

(2) The laws of Moses however were the prescriptive cure for sin with all the Levitical and ceremonial laws, burnt offerings, annual feast days foretelling the plan of salvation which were connected to Feast days with New Moon sabbaths, food and drink offerings and other Holy days. These where all types pointing to Jesus and the plan of salvation.

Scripture proof:
Lev 1:1-13; Lev 23:1-44; Num 28:1-31; 29:1-40; Deut 24:10-11; Ex 24:3; Deut 31:24-26; Col 2:16-16; Heb 10:1; Eph 2:14-15; Lev 4; 5; 6; Heb 4:14; 9;10; John 1:29

Every reference in connection to Col 2:14-17 is in relation to (1) burnt offerings; (2) Sabbaths held at the New Moon feasts and at the appointed festivals and (3) food and drink offerings. The context is referring to the annual ceremonial feast days described in Leviticus Chapter 23; Numbers chapters 28 and 29. As mentioned earlier these were all done away at the cross because they were Shadows of an unfinished word that was completed at the death of Jesus (Col 2:16-17).


Let’s now look at what the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] commandment actually says?

Exo 20:8-11,
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day.

Now please notice some key points;

Where does it say in the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] commandment of God’s Law that we need to do (1) burnt offerings (2) keep the annual Sabbaths at the New Moons at the appointed festivals and (3) offer food and drink offerings? It does not because it is God’s Law that points out sin. It is the same Law that we have today and is forever because it was made by God himself and represents the character of God and is the knowledge of good and evil. It shows us what sin is (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4; Rom 6:23).

Now notice the last part of the commandment in Ex 20:11 this is the reason the commandment was given. (v11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day.This is a reference back to Gen 2:1-3

What does Genesis 2:1-3 teach us about God’s 4[SUP]th[/SUP] commandment the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath which is one of the 10 commandments?

GEN 2

[SUP]1[/SUP]Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. [SUP]2[/SUP]And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.[SUP] 3[/SUP]And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Scripture context points:
* God finished all the work of creation on the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day of the week (v1)
* God ended His Work on the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day of the creation week and rested from all His work of creation, it was completed no more work required (v2)
* God blessed the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day and set it apart as a holy day as a memorial of creation

Critical questions and answers:

When was God’s 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath made, before the fall of mankind or after the fall of mankind?
It was made BEFORE the fall of mankind at the end of the creation week on the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day and was the result of a FINISHED work!

Was God’s work of creation a FINISHED WORK or an UNFUNISHED WORK?
The 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath was the result of the FINISHED AND COMPLETED WORK of creation!

When were God’s Laws and the laws of Moses given, before the fall of mankind or after the fall of mankind? Obviously AFTER the fall of mankind (Ex 20:1-17, Lev 23:1-44, etc) they were part of God’s plan of salvation.


So in summary the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath is a memorial of the FINISHED work of creation and if it is a FINISHED work and a memorial of God’s creation that was given BEFORE the FALL of mankind before SIN had entered the world and before the plan of salvation was given to FALLEN man. If it was a part of a FINISHED work then it cannot be a Shadow of salvation because a Shadow was part of an UNFINISHED work given in the laws of Moses and was given AFTER the fall of mankind where the Sabbath was made before the fall.

Overall summary:

* Col 2:14-17 is referring to the ceremonial laws of Moses (v 14)

* The ceremonial laws of Moses included all the (1) food and drink offering, (2) feast days and festivals, (3) New Moons and (4) annual feast sabbaths (v 16)

* These were all Shadows pointing to Jesus and were completed at His death (v14; 17)

* The in text context of Col 2:16 is referring to the Old Testament scriptures word for word in relation to the laws of Moses (Col 2:16-17; Eze 45:17-21; 1Ch 23:31; 2Ch 2:4; Hos 2:11; Lev 23; Num 10; 28; 29)

* God’s Law (10 commandments) was the work of God himself and separate from every other law given to Israel. Its role was to point out sin

* The laws of Moses were to teach Israel the plan of salvation pointing to Jesus which was completed at the death of Jesus. It could not identify sin but its provided a cure for sin in animal sacrificed and burnt offerings and food and drink offerings which all pointed to Jesus (Col 2:14-17)

* Col 2:16 is referring to the annual New Moon ceremonial sabbaths connected to feast days and mean and drink offerings and not the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] commandment of God’s Law.

* God’s 4[SUP]th[/SUP] commandment is a reference to Gen 2:1-3 which is the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] day of the creation week which was part of the FINISHED work creation given BEFORE the fall of mankind so cannot be a part of any Shadow plan of Salvation because its origin is in the FINISHED creation week BEFORE the fall.

Closing remarks:


Jesus says the Sabbath was made for man. He is the God of creation that made it for mankind. God commands us to keep the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath as a Holy day because he rested on this day. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. If we love him we must follow Him (Mark 2:27-28; John 14:15)

Hope this helps the faithful Bereans.

God bless you all line upon line and precept upon precept.....
 
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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
Galatians 2:21 [FONT=&quot]I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

If walking with the Lord meant to try and keep the commandments the way He did then this verse shouldn't even be in the bible.

But that verse is in the bible. For a reason.

Matthew 11:28 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

The Lord says He will do it.

Romans 8:2 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Paul explains what has been done.


Romans 6:14 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


If you are still working at the law then sin still has dominion over you. The only way to receive from Christ is to give up your work and ask with faith.

Galatians 3:2-3
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?[/FONT]
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,230
6,526
113
Grand pa!

Do what?

In your restricted quote from the Word here,
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Jesus Christ is referring to being taught by Him and not by hypocrites.

In the WÇord, the Epistles, we are taught to labor to enter into that rest.

The Children of Israel, while they were in the wilderness were diobedient and by their disobedience salvation was gained by the nations.

If we believe God, Jesus Christ, we will do as He teaches us, but first, we must learn from Him. Ask Paul.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,230
6,526
113
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

When God stops working, our Father, then we will stop working. Just as Jesus, as long as the Father is working so must His children............

The field (world) is ripe for the harvest (aving of souls, people) there fore pray the Father send workers towork the harvest.

If you are here to tell those who truly believe that God has no work for them, I am afraid you are wandering in darkness.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
We are not ashamed or accused by verses that we understand by the Holy Spirit...

Many are stumbling around in the darkness yet to recieve the Light.

Ask for the Holy Spirit and delight and stand upright in His Truth.

Blessed are they that do His Commandments.


All through the Bible GOD is willing us to listen and obey Him.... because he knows where it leads us if we don't.


Listen and Trust the Messiah.. Love with all your being.

i love you all.
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
653
113
The Holy Spirit will not twist our arm to do right,therefore when we are led by the Spirit it is a guidance,not an automatic response to do the deeds of the Spirit,for if that were the case no one would ever sin again after they were saved,and would always do works without wavering,but Jesus said concerning the Church of Ephesus that they lacked works,were fallen,and needed to repent,and if they did not repent Jesus would go against them.

The Bible says a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,for they crucified the flesh with the lusts and affections,and will show the characteristics of the Spirit,in which no fleshy ways are there,but that is to people that made the choice to hate sin,not want sin,to represent goodness,and be Christlike.

Therefore there is no excuse why people cannot abstain from sin by the Spirit,and if there is no excuse and possible to abstain from sin,then God will require it of us,to abstain from sin,and do works.God is not going to tolerate that sin does not affect your relationship with Him,for it is possible to abstain from sin by the Spirit.

Faith alone,not saved by works,when confessing Christ,for that is all we can do being fleshy.Paul is dealing with Gentiles and their false religions,and their false practices,or if anybody is doing the physical ordinances of Israel,that those works will not save,but only by confessing Christ.It is a one time deal,and when we receive the Spirit then responsibility falls on us,to allow the Spirit to lead us,and do works of the Spirit,not works of the flesh,but works of the Spirit,and if not we are being disobedient because we are not doing the will of God,and laboring for the kingdom,and to obey is better than sacrifice,and bring every thought to the obedience of Christ.

Faith without works is dead,and a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,after we receive the Spirit.

Paul is not saying that not saved by works is throughout a person's walk with Christ,but when they first confess Christ,telling it from the viewpoint of being in the flesh,for when we confess Christ we are in the flesh,and our works are as filthy rags,so all we can do is have faith,there is nothing more we can do,but James picks up after we receive the Spirit,then works do matter,and if we do not do works our faith is dead,no faith,and those works are in loving people,and helping them with their needs if possibe,which if we have the means to help the poor,and we neglect,then the love of God does not dwell in us.

As far as righteousness,it is something we have to strive for,and the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us,but it does not stop there,for the Bible says,awake to righteousness,and sin not,but not all have the knowledge of God,and Paul said he speaks that to their shame,and Jesus said,seek you first the kingdom of God,and His righteousness,then God will provide you with your needs,and a person that does not do righteousness is not of God,and Jesus said,blessed are those that thirst,and hunger,after righteousness,for they shall be filled.

The Spirit guides us,but we are the ones that make the choice to do right,and allow the Spirit to guide us,for it stems from us first to do righteousness,and do works,and the Spirit will help us,for if it stems from the Spirit first,and we do not have a choice about it,no one would ever sin after they were saved,and would do works nothing wavering,but some would say they will do the works because they are saved,but that is not correct,except the choice of the person,for Jesus said the Church of Ephesus lacked works,were fallen,and needed to repent,and the Church of Sardis He did not find their works perfect before God,and to repent,and James would not warn that the saints could lack works if it were not possible that they could lack works.

We have to have works for we must do the works of the Spirit,for if we do not we are disobedient to not do the will of God,and to obey is better than sacrifice,and those works are a result of us choosing to do those works,not an automatic response to do those works,for the Spirit guides,prompts,but does not force us to do the works,so we have to take the iniative to do the works,when the Spirit prompts us to do right,and to care about the poor and needy.

We can be forgiven of sins at any time,even if we live in sin for 5 years it can be forgiven,when we mean it that we do not want the sin,and it is a simple solution to repent of your sins,and be led of the Spirit,we mess up that solution is still there,repent,and be led of the Spirit,a simple solution if we hate sin,and do not want sin.

So what is there to fear,and worry about,if we are serious we do not want sin,for by the guidance of the Spirit it is an easy thing to accomplish.

Why the need to go against scripture,and say God chooses who will be saved,and not saved,without their input,when God said He wants all to be saved,and they were chosen and can never fall,but if any person thinks they stand take heed lest they fall,and if they do not continue in God's goodness they will be cut off,and faith alone,when a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,and confess Christ alone,and sin does not affect their relationship with God,when the Bible says those that name the name of Christ has to depart from iniquity.

Why the need to do that.

Some have a form of godliness,but they deny the power thereof,and are ever learning,and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth,and that truth is they do not come to the truth that sin does affect their relationship with God,for they are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God,which not everyone that says Lord will dwell with Jesus for they were workers of iniquity,not sin,repent of sin,and are led of the Spirit for a while,and then sin again,repent of that sin,and then led of the Spirit again,but they were workers of inquity,for they held unto sin,and did not let it go thinking they were alright with God.

And a big culprit of this is the prosperity Gospel,and them enjoying their wants,and fleshy pleasures,while the world is in need,which those that preach the prosperity Gospel withdraw yourselves from them,having food and clothing,be content.

Which it is nice to enjoy some things of the world in entertainent,and travel,but as long as the world is in need we cannot do it.

It would be nice to take cruises,and drive expensive cars,have a mansion,and enjoy the finest 4 star restuarants,and the good things of the world like that,which would be good,but people are in need,and that makes it bad to enjoy them,which according to the flesh it is sad,but according to the Spirit it is good.

Those things are not bad to enjoy things of the world,it is only bad if it harms people,and not caring about the poor when we represent God is harming people.

For what is more important a 5 million dollar house,a one million dollar care,a 2000 dollar cruise,or vacation,or anything of cost associated with things like that,and does not have to be that expensive,anything above our needs that is unnecessary,or people,and of course people would be the most important,and if we do not help them then the love of God does not dwell in us.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,230
6,526
113
I know of the Holy Spirit moving on a person to cause that person to enter a truck with a stranger, me, ad hear what the Spirit had to say to her.

I too had been moved by the Holy Spirit to top the truck at a pull-over area and wait for someone to come in a cr and get out.

All seemed perfectly normal as it occurreed, but it was the Holy Spirit using willing vessels.

I do not know anyone who knows the Holy Spirit to the depths of being able to say what He will or will not do......God bless willing vessels in Christ, amen.
 

Enow

Banned
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
If we are bound to follow the Law of Moses as "bound" demands that you do it; you obtain righteousness by keeping the law... then that is hardly the New Covenant when that is significantly the Old Covenant.

If you read Matthew 12:1-8, You will see Jesus coming to the defense of His disciples for plucking the ears of corn on the sabbath day by referring to 2 incidents in the Old Testament where the saints had profaned the sabbath day but were blameless because they were in the Temple when this was done, and then Jesus announced that One greater than the Temple was here to the Pharisees for why His disciples were blameless, namely Himself.

Matthew 12:1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.[SUP] 3 [/SUP]But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;[SUP] 4 [/SUP]How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?[SUP] 5 [/SUP]Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?[SUP] 6 [/SUP]But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.[SUP]8 [/SUP]For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

So understand this; the saints under the Old Covenant DID profaned the sabbath day but were blameless because they were in the Temple and so His disciples are blameless at the time He was speaking because He was with them.

You are not bound to keep the sabbath day because Jesus is Lord of the sabbath day.

1 Corinthians 6:[SUP]19 [/SUP]What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?[SUP] 20 [/SUP]For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

2 Corinthians 13:[SUP]5 [/SUP]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Are we profaning the law of keeping the sabbath day? Yes.. but Jesus has fulfilled the law where only His righteousness is sufficient to bring us Home apart from being bound by the law to do them in bringing us Home. It is in Him, we are free.

So I understand why sabbath day keepers does not believe that the keeping of the sabbath day was done away with, but Jesus did acknowledge the profaning of the sabbath day, but His disciples were blameless because He was with them. So in light of the New Covenant, it is because Jesus Christ is in us as our body becomes the Temple of the Holy Spirit is why by His righteousness He is able to make us stand for not keeping the sabbath day.

Believers are free to honor the Lord on the sabbath day or any day or every day....but they must truly honor Him that sabbath day by recognizing that they are not bound to keep the sabbath day, therefore by declaring His righteousness apart from the law, they have enter into that rest in the Lord every day of the week for the Lord is able to make them stand for they are the Lord's.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,713
4,077
113
62
The Holy Spirit will not twist our arm to do right,therefore when we are led by the Spirit it is a guidance,not an automatic response to do the deeds of the Spirit,for if that were the case no one would ever sin again after they were saved,and would always do works without wavering,but Jesus said concerning the Church of Ephesus that they lacked works,were fallen,and needed to repent,and if they did not repent Jesus would go against them.

The Bible says a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,for they crucified the flesh with the lusts and affections,and will show the characteristics of the Spirit,in which no fleshy ways are there,but that is to people that made the choice to hate sin,not want sin,to represent goodness,and be Christlike.

Therefore there is no excuse why people cannot abstain from sin by the Spirit,and if there is no excuse and possible to abstain from sin,then God will require it of us,to abstain from sin,and do works.God is not going to tolerate that sin does not affect your relationship with Him,for it is possible to abstain from sin by the Spirit.

Faith alone,not saved by works,when confessing Christ,for that is all we can do being fleshy.Paul is dealing with Gentiles and their false religions,and their false practices,or if anybody is doing the physical ordinances of Israel,that those works will not save,but only by confessing Christ.It is a one time deal,and when we receive the Spirit then responsibility falls on us,to allow the Spirit to lead us,and do works of the Spirit,not works of the flesh,but works of the Spirit,and if not we are being disobedient because we are not doing the will of God,and laboring for the kingdom,and to obey is better than sacrifice,and bring every thought to the obedience of Christ.

Faith without works is dead,and a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,after we receive the Spirit.

Paul is not saying that not saved by works is throughout a person's walk with Christ,but when they first confess Christ,telling it from the viewpoint of being in the flesh,for when we confess Christ we are in the flesh,and our works are as filthy rags,so all we can do is have faith,there is nothing more we can do,but James picks up after we receive the Spirit,then works do matter,and if we do not do works our faith is dead,no faith,and those works are in loving people,and helping them with their needs if possibe,which if we have the means to help the poor,and we neglect,then the love of God does not dwell in us.

As far as righteousness,it is something we have to strive for,and the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us,but it does not stop there,for the Bible says,awake to righteousness,and sin not,but not all have the knowledge of God,and Paul said he speaks that to their shame,and Jesus said,seek you first the kingdom of God,and His righteousness,then God will provide you with your needs,and a person that does not do righteousness is not of God,and Jesus said,blessed are those that thirst,and hunger,after righteousness,for they shall be filled.

The Spirit guides us,but we are the ones that make the choice to do right,and allow the Spirit to guide us,for it stems from us first to do righteousness,and do works,and the Spirit will help us,for if it stems from the Spirit first,and we do not have a choice about it,no one would ever sin after they were saved,and would do works nothing wavering,but some would say they will do the works because they are saved,but that is not correct,except the choice of the person,for Jesus said the Church of Ephesus lacked works,were fallen,and needed to repent,and the Church of Sardis He did not find their works perfect before God,and to repent,and James would not warn that the saints could lack works if it were not possible that they could lack works.

We have to have works for we must do the works of the Spirit,for if we do not we are disobedient to not do the will of God,and to obey is better than sacrifice,and those works are a result of us choosing to do those works,not an automatic response to do those works,for the Spirit guides,prompts,but does not force us to do the works,so we have to take the iniative to do the works,when the Spirit prompts us to do right,and to care about the poor and needy.

We can be forgiven of sins at any time,even if we live in sin for 5 years it can be forgiven,when we mean it that we do not want the sin,and it is a simple solution to repent of your sins,and be led of the Spirit,we mess up that solution is still there,repent,and be led of the Spirit,a simple solution if we hate sin,and do not want sin.

So what is there to fear,and worry about,if we are serious we do not want sin,for by the guidance of the Spirit it is an easy thing to accomplish.

Why the need to go against scripture,and say God chooses who will be saved,and not saved,without their input,when God said He wants all to be saved,and they were chosen and can never fall,but if any person thinks they stand take heed lest they fall,and if they do not continue in God's goodness they will be cut off,and faith alone,when a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,and confess Christ alone,and sin does not affect their relationship with God,when the Bible says those that name the name of Christ has to depart from iniquity.

Why the need to do that.

Some have a form of godliness,but they deny the power thereof,and are ever learning,and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth,and that truth is they do not come to the truth that sin does affect their relationship with God,for they are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God,which not everyone that says Lord will dwell with Jesus for they were workers of iniquity,not sin,repent of sin,and are led of the Spirit for a while,and then sin again,repent of that sin,and then led of the Spirit again,but they were workers of inquity,for they held unto sin,and did not let it go thinking they were alright with God.

And a big culprit of this is the prosperity Gospel,and them enjoying their wants,and fleshy pleasures,while the world is in need,which those that preach the prosperity Gospel withdraw yourselves from them,having food and clothing,be content.

Which it is nice to enjoy some things of the world in entertainent,and travel,but as long as the world is in need we cannot do it.

It would be nice to take cruises,and drive expensive cars,have a mansion,and enjoy the finest 4 star restuarants,and the good things of the world like that,which would be good,but people are in need,and that makes it bad to enjoy them,which according to the flesh it is sad,but according to the Spirit it is good.

Those things are not bad to enjoy things of the world,it is only bad if it harms people,and not caring about the poor when we represent God is harming people.

For what is more important a 5 million dollar house,a one million dollar care,a 2000 dollar cruise,or vacation,or anything of cost associated with things like that,and does not have to be that expensive,anything above our needs that is unnecessary,or people,and of course people would be the most important,and if we do not help them then the love of God does not dwell in us.
Hi MatterforJesus...This would be a great post in the bdf...Great post and thank you :)...xox...