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I agree, we need to read Rom 14 with more discernment. Paul never told anyone to choose their own holy day ----
he simply made a statement that 'SOME were doing that by esteeming one day above another, being convinced in their own mind they were doing the right thing.'
This may well have referred to people who esteemed the sabbath above another day but was seized upon to mean they could choose their own....a slight twist of words and situation and a false concept is established giving opportunity for ungodly men to creep in 'unawares.
he simply made a statement that 'SOME were doing that by esteeming one day above another, being convinced in their own mind they were doing the right thing.'
This may well have referred to people who esteemed the sabbath above another day but was seized upon to mean they could choose their own....a slight twist of words and situation and a false concept is established giving opportunity for ungodly men to creep in 'unawares.
VCO,
re: "Romans 14:5 (ASV) 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind."
With regard to Romans 14:5, the subject of the chapter from start to finish has to do with what people eat. Paul is writing about asceticism. Some in the church at Rome believed Christians should eat only vegetables. Paul calls these people "weak in the faith" (verses 1-2). The stronger in faith knew they could also eat meat. Nothing in the supreme beings's law prescribes vegetarianism. The stronger in faith knew they were free from non-biblical asceticism. A part of the controversy that had sprung up between the weak and the strong Christians was the esteeming of days. In Rome some people had the pagan idea that on certain days certain foods should or should not be eaten. In this whole chapter Paul was just showing that others should not be offended, particularly weak members who have not yet learned the truth about the proper Christian diet and that they should not be judged by the stronger in the faith. This passage has nothing to do with the Sabbath.
The specific reason that Paul wrote the chapter is sumed up in verse 20: "Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food".
re: "Romans 14:5 (ASV) 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind."
With regard to Romans 14:5, the subject of the chapter from start to finish has to do with what people eat. Paul is writing about asceticism. Some in the church at Rome believed Christians should eat only vegetables. Paul calls these people "weak in the faith" (verses 1-2). The stronger in faith knew they could also eat meat. Nothing in the supreme beings's law prescribes vegetarianism. The stronger in faith knew they were free from non-biblical asceticism. A part of the controversy that had sprung up between the weak and the strong Christians was the esteeming of days. In Rome some people had the pagan idea that on certain days certain foods should or should not be eaten. In this whole chapter Paul was just showing that others should not be offended, particularly weak members who have not yet learned the truth about the proper Christian diet and that they should not be judged by the stronger in the faith. This passage has nothing to do with the Sabbath.
The specific reason that Paul wrote the chapter is sumed up in verse 20: "Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food".
T
Our Sabbath rest is not a day under the new covenant, it is a person. Jesus is our sabbath rest. This may offend some, but any day you pick to go to church is just fine. If you get so focused on a day, you are missing the point of the new covenant.
Now let me caveat this and say, it is very important to gather with believers on a regular basis. But it could be a Tuesday and you would be just fine. Here in America through tradition, Sundays have been the typical day believers come together to worship God in a corporate setting. But the true Sabbath rest is putting your trust and life in the finished work of Christ and establishing a personal relationship with Christ and getting to know God as your Father.
You enter his rest by accepting Jesus as Lord. Everyday is a sabbath rest under the new covenant You can get so caught up in keeping rules and Laws to please God instead of cultivating a relationship with Jesus that you end up falling from Grace as explained in Galatians (which does not mean you are lost) and back into the works of the law and end up trying to serve God via works which brings guilt and condemnation.
if you cannot find a worship center to go to on your days off, look for a home group, or an online service. But try to find a group of believers to meet with on a regular basis to study and disciple one another
Again, do not let a specific day condemn you.
Now let me caveat this and say, it is very important to gather with believers on a regular basis. But it could be a Tuesday and you would be just fine. Here in America through tradition, Sundays have been the typical day believers come together to worship God in a corporate setting. But the true Sabbath rest is putting your trust and life in the finished work of Christ and establishing a personal relationship with Christ and getting to know God as your Father.
You enter his rest by accepting Jesus as Lord. Everyday is a sabbath rest under the new covenant You can get so caught up in keeping rules and Laws to please God instead of cultivating a relationship with Jesus that you end up falling from Grace as explained in Galatians (which does not mean you are lost) and back into the works of the law and end up trying to serve God via works which brings guilt and condemnation.
if you cannot find a worship center to go to on your days off, look for a home group, or an online service. But try to find a group of believers to meet with on a regular basis to study and disciple one another
Again, do not let a specific day condemn you.
Yes, he is the true "rest of God" (see Hebrews 3 and 4). The Sabbath was a redemptive type...for the Israelites, it reminded them that they were in the slavery of Egypt and God delivered them from the bondage of working without rest, into his "rest". The six days of work symbolized their bondage in Egypt, and the one day of rest symbolized redemption, which God accomplished for them in the exodus.
There are other redemptive types, such as the tree of life, the Promised Land, the animal skins that God clothed Adam and Eve with...the Sabbath is just another one of those.
And, as you pointed out, the Sabbath is a mere shadow..as Colossians 2:16-17 indicates, the Reality is Jesus our Lord and the life of faith we step into when we place our faith in Him and his perfect sacrifice...he is our spiritual Rest.
However, I have no issue with those who prefer observing Saturday as a valuable shadow or type..only those who claim non-observers are in sin, or that keeping the Sabbath is a requirement, condition, or necessary fruit of salvation. Those individuals can properly fit under the category of Judaizer, which is what Galatians addressed. There are some Messianic Jews, and some Gentiles, who observe Sabbath, festivals, and clean meat laws without making such heretical claims.
There are other redemptive types, such as the tree of life, the Promised Land, the animal skins that God clothed Adam and Eve with...the Sabbath is just another one of those.
And, as you pointed out, the Sabbath is a mere shadow..as Colossians 2:16-17 indicates, the Reality is Jesus our Lord and the life of faith we step into when we place our faith in Him and his perfect sacrifice...he is our spiritual Rest.
However, I have no issue with those who prefer observing Saturday as a valuable shadow or type..only those who claim non-observers are in sin, or that keeping the Sabbath is a requirement, condition, or necessary fruit of salvation. Those individuals can properly fit under the category of Judaizer, which is what Galatians addressed. There are some Messianic Jews, and some Gentiles, who observe Sabbath, festivals, and clean meat laws without making such heretical claims.
Yes...and why must a person choose ? so we and God can see which side people are on ! of course HE already knows by looking into their heart but people can not always tell the difference because of their hidden agendas and pretense. But the Sabbath is definitely God's 'yardstick that clearly shows people's intent whether they are FOR God or for themselves ! It's similar to 'separating the sheep (obedient one's) from the goats (the disobedient). Nobody escapes God's judgement !
The reason Jesus did not command us to keep the sabbath because it had already been done for thousands of years to no avail....no reason to continue in the same mode. Jesus Himself came as our LIVING example and even that is not bending the knees of the disobedient....guess He will have to break their legs to stop them walking into total destruction...He'd be doing them a favour. God is always concerned for people's spiritual salvation...not willing that any should perish but come to repentance !
The reason Jesus did not command us to keep the sabbath because it had already been done for thousands of years to no avail....no reason to continue in the same mode. Jesus Himself came as our LIVING example and even that is not bending the knees of the disobedient....guess He will have to break their legs to stop them walking into total destruction...He'd be doing them a favour. God is always concerned for people's spiritual salvation...not willing that any should perish but come to repentance !
Rules and laws for who? The Sabbath was given as a sign to ancient Israel. It was one of the two covenant signs. Physical circumcision was the one time entry sign into the Mosaic Covenant and the Sabbath was the continual "remembrance" sign of the Mosaic Covenant.
Christians are under the New Covenant, and they have the ordinances of baptism and the Lord's Supper.
By the way, why are you concerned with this issue? Your profile says that you are not Christian. Do you observe the Sabbath and festivals yourself? If so, why are you identifying yourself as a non-Christian? If not, why are you preaching continual applicability of something you don't observe?
I think we discussed this a long time ago but I don't remember your responses.
Christians are under the New Covenant, and they have the ordinances of baptism and the Lord's Supper.
By the way, why are you concerned with this issue? Your profile says that you are not Christian. Do you observe the Sabbath and festivals yourself? If so, why are you identifying yourself as a non-Christian? If not, why are you preaching continual applicability of something you don't observe?
I think we discussed this a long time ago but I don't remember your responses.
T
Sorry I am new to this site and still trying to figure out how to reply to specific posts. The Amen and nailed it is to those who agree that getting caught up in specific days for the sabbath rest is an old covenant belief! Our sabbath rest is in the finished work of Christ and trying to impose a specific day on someone is bondage.
I agree going to church in a corporate setting weekly is essential, but it could be a Tuesday and God would be fine with it!
I agree going to church in a corporate setting weekly is essential, but it could be a Tuesday and God would be fine with it!
If you read Matthew 25 and the separation of the sheep from the goats, it is based on sacrificial love, not on Sabbath-keeping...Jesus doesn't say that those who kept the Sabbath, festivals, clean meat laws, and got snipped are the ones who are entering into the Kingdom..in fact many of those are going to perdition because they didn't trust in Jesus and his sacrifice on their behalf ultimately, but on their own works. John 13:34-35 says that the sign of true believers is related to sacrificial love, and not keeping the Mosaic Covenant.
trucker62, there is a vocal group of Judaizers here who believe keeping the Sabbath, festivals, and clean meat laws are related to salvation, and believe that non-observers are in sin. I used to be one of them as a young Armstrongite long ago.
They are caught up in a paranoid worldview that claims non-observers are following the Roman Catholic church and/or Constantine in rejecting the Sabbath, which they view as the sign of a true believer, and claim that we are engaging in Sun worship.
Many of them are conspiracy theorists and believe other ridiculous things. Some elements within the Hebrew Roots Movement have affected them with nonsense. For example, I have seen people viewed as "teachers" on this site claiming that the Hebrew pictograph alphabet provides "hidden messages" in the bible text, that the original writings of the New Testament were in Hebrew despite ZERO manuscript evidence, and even some really weird wild eyed people claiming things like Michelle Obama is a man, and that Jesuits are working covertly to infiltrate Christianity and suppress knowledge of the Mosaic Covenant observances they claim are still in effect.
There are some sound observers of Sabbath, festivals, and clean meat laws who do so to relate to their culture, and have great insight, and do not accuse non-observers of being in sin but my experience is that they are less common. Many observers are erratic in their beliefs and demonstrate instability, including reflecting political conspiracy theories like the Michelle Obama thing. Others are following cultic beliefs that deny the Trinity, the full deity of Jesus, and accept non-biblical sources of "inspiration" like Jewish writings.
I am good with Messianic Jews like Michael Rydelnik, Meno Kalisher, and Michael Brown but there are so many weird Hebrew Roots Movement/Messianic Jews who deny core beliefs of Christianity and/or display a conspiracy theory mentality. Many of them are just outright seeking any opportunity they can to discredit Christianity to exalt their own position..Armstrongites are especially fervent in this endeavor.
They are caught up in a paranoid worldview that claims non-observers are following the Roman Catholic church and/or Constantine in rejecting the Sabbath, which they view as the sign of a true believer, and claim that we are engaging in Sun worship.
Many of them are conspiracy theorists and believe other ridiculous things. Some elements within the Hebrew Roots Movement have affected them with nonsense. For example, I have seen people viewed as "teachers" on this site claiming that the Hebrew pictograph alphabet provides "hidden messages" in the bible text, that the original writings of the New Testament were in Hebrew despite ZERO manuscript evidence, and even some really weird wild eyed people claiming things like Michelle Obama is a man, and that Jesuits are working covertly to infiltrate Christianity and suppress knowledge of the Mosaic Covenant observances they claim are still in effect.
There are some sound observers of Sabbath, festivals, and clean meat laws who do so to relate to their culture, and have great insight, and do not accuse non-observers of being in sin but my experience is that they are less common. Many observers are erratic in their beliefs and demonstrate instability, including reflecting political conspiracy theories like the Michelle Obama thing. Others are following cultic beliefs that deny the Trinity, the full deity of Jesus, and accept non-biblical sources of "inspiration" like Jewish writings.
I am good with Messianic Jews like Michael Rydelnik, Meno Kalisher, and Michael Brown but there are so many weird Hebrew Roots Movement/Messianic Jews who deny core beliefs of Christianity and/or display a conspiracy theory mentality. Many of them are just outright seeking any opportunity they can to discredit Christianity to exalt their own position..Armstrongites are especially fervent in this endeavor.
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It seems that some here believe God gave away all His authority to Moses so it could be abolished - leaving HImself impotent to do anything further.Of course they still want to get into HIS Kingdom which they then would be able to run on their terms seeing God is (seemingly) impotent.
scripture tells us they will be on the outside gnashing their teeth. The warnings are plentiful if they had an ear to hear.
scripture tells us they will be on the outside gnashing their teeth. The warnings are plentiful if they had an ear to hear.
Amen....I too have no issue with those that want to observe a certain day but to say we must do it as in the law of Moses and if we do we are sinning is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of God. For them to say it is a sin for Gentile Christians not to observe the Sabbath as in the law of Moses is perverting the gospel of Christ and they are modern day Judaizers.
Paul never stood for this perversion of the gospel which says we need to follow the law of Moses for anything and neither should we.
Galatians 2:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.
Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and all the earth speaks of Christ's work from creation, marriage to the truth of resting on God's finished work in Christ.
Paul never stood for this perversion of the gospel which says we need to follow the law of Moses for anything and neither should we.
Galatians 2:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.
Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and all the earth speaks of Christ's work from creation, marriage to the truth of resting on God's finished work in Christ.
3
Is it a sin if a Gentile Christian does not keep the Sabbath as laid out in the Law of Moses?
So, let me ask it again so that we can see what is believed here.
Is it a sin if a Gentile Christian does not keep the Sabbath as laid out in the Law of Moses?
The ten commandments is build on the foundation of God's government. God had written it with His own finger. If the commandments were shadows or part of the old covenant. Why would it be necessary for Jesus to die. God (He) could just have change the law.
The entire Law served a ministry of condemnation per II Corinthians 3. It displays to the reader of the law his sin, and that points him toward the need for grace and the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Jesus was pictured in the shadows and types of the Mosaic Covenant.
Separating the Ten Commandments from the rest of the Law is an invalid approach to the Law, and even those who claim that this is a valid approach don't do it. For instance, Seventh Day Adventists teach this approach, but they claim that the clean meat laws apply. Clean meat laws are not contained in the Ten Commandments, but in the rest of Torah.
In particular, they do this because they want to claim the Sabbath is still applicable. But, they also want to pick and choose amongst the rest of Torah for their patchwork quilt of requirements. All of those who hold similar theologies do the same thing, including the Armstrongites I was associated with.
The reality is that the entire Torah is no longer applicable. However, there are moral and spiritual principles that underlay the Torah that reflect the Law of Christ. The specific applications given to Israel may not apply, but the underlying moral and principles continue to endure. Spirit-led eyes can see these moral and spiritual principles and be guided by them. They are also clearly reflected in the apostolic writings.
The snare that many fall under relates to this artificial division of the Ten Commandments from the rest of the Torah; claiming that the Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath, are still applicable, and the rest of the Torah is not.
I also find it amusing that Torah observers, as a fallback position, will do the same thing, even though their system claims to teach that the entire Torah is applicable, because they realize the weakness of the claim, knowing that they don't observe all the Torah, nor can they observe it, because there are no Levitical priests and no Temple to conduct the sacrifices. They don't go to Jerusalem for the pilgrimage festivals as the Torah required. And, Torah is very clear in that those who claim to observe it must observe it ALL. This is impossible, because the Temple isn't standing and there is no Levitical priesthood. God made sure that it is utterly impossible to credibly claim to observe Torah in the destruction of the Temple. Even if one denies Jesus as their high priest and his atoning sacrifice on the cross, they are left with no other path to pursue righteousness through observance of the law, even if they managed to delude themselves into thinking they keep Torah. Torah isn't a pick-and choose, cafeteria plan proposition like "Torah observers" claim. They are simply fooling themselves and others by such nonsense.
I would suggest that anyone who wants to understand the problems behind the Sabbathkeeper position should review the thread at the link below and the article associated with it.
The author is a former Seventh Day Adventist.
One of the biggest hindrances for both Sabbathkeepers AND non-observers in understanding this issue is falsely dividing the Ten Commandments from the rest of the Torah. If a Sabbath non-observer maintains that the Ten Commandments as a whole are still applicable, his discussions with Seventh Day Adventists are hindered, as he is displaying an inconsistency.
The key is that the Torah is one unified law. The Ten Commandments occupied a prominent place in the Torah but they were not separate from it. And, particularly, the Sabbath as well as physical circumcision were signs of the Mosaic Covenant. Christians are not under the Mosaic Covenant, and therefore its signs are not applicable to them as binding moral law.
The signs associated with Christians are baptism and the Lord's Supper. Baptism is the one-time entry sign into the New Covenant, similar to physical circumcision (although salvation has already occurred in the baptized person; I do not believe in baptismal regeneration). The Lord's Supper is the continuing, remembrance sign, similar to the Sabbath (Jesus said to observe the Lord's Supper in remembrance of him, and the Sabbath command says to "remember the Sabbath"). Sabbath (and festivals for that matter) were like "anniversaries" or remembrances of the covenant relationship the Israelite had with God under the Mosaic Covenant. See Hosea 2 where God "divorced" Israel and took away her Sabbaths and festivals due to unfaithfulness. It's almost like he was saying...you're no longer my wife, you whore..take my ring off...the Sabbath and festivals were "reminders" of the relationship God had with ancient Israel, much like a ring is the reminder of the marriage covenant between humans. God wouldn't have "taken away" the Sabbath and festivals if they were moral laws...God doesn't take away enduring, moral laws...therefore the Sabbath and festivals are not enduring, moral laws.
And, as Colossians 2:16-17 points out, the Sabbath pointed to Jesus as our spiritual rest. See Matthew 11:28-30 and Hebrews 3-4 in this regard. The "rest of God", which is entering into the faith relationship with Jesus, or, in other words redemption, is displayed here by several types. One is the creation day rest of God...another is the Promised Land of ancient Israel...the Sabbath is another redemptive type, just like physical circumcision is a type of redemption.
Colossians 2:16-17 is powerful in this regard. It is so powerful that SDAs spend a lot of time trying to refute that it is talking about the weekly Sabbath, but it most certainly is. There is no place in the NT where sabbaton (the word used for Sabbaths) can be conclusively tied to anything other than the weekly Sabbath, yet SDAs attempt to claim that it is referring to something else.
As I've said before, though, I have no issue with Sabbathkeepers as long as they don't claim non-observers are in sin, and that keeping the Sabbath is a requirement, condition or necessary fruit of salvation.
Here's the article I mentioned. Understanding the points in it are very important to being consistent in one's discussion about the Sabbath with observers:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...aw-view-how-affects-sdas-torah-observers.html
The author is a former Seventh Day Adventist.
One of the biggest hindrances for both Sabbathkeepers AND non-observers in understanding this issue is falsely dividing the Ten Commandments from the rest of the Torah. If a Sabbath non-observer maintains that the Ten Commandments as a whole are still applicable, his discussions with Seventh Day Adventists are hindered, as he is displaying an inconsistency.
The key is that the Torah is one unified law. The Ten Commandments occupied a prominent place in the Torah but they were not separate from it. And, particularly, the Sabbath as well as physical circumcision were signs of the Mosaic Covenant. Christians are not under the Mosaic Covenant, and therefore its signs are not applicable to them as binding moral law.
The signs associated with Christians are baptism and the Lord's Supper. Baptism is the one-time entry sign into the New Covenant, similar to physical circumcision (although salvation has already occurred in the baptized person; I do not believe in baptismal regeneration). The Lord's Supper is the continuing, remembrance sign, similar to the Sabbath (Jesus said to observe the Lord's Supper in remembrance of him, and the Sabbath command says to "remember the Sabbath"). Sabbath (and festivals for that matter) were like "anniversaries" or remembrances of the covenant relationship the Israelite had with God under the Mosaic Covenant. See Hosea 2 where God "divorced" Israel and took away her Sabbaths and festivals due to unfaithfulness. It's almost like he was saying...you're no longer my wife, you whore..take my ring off...the Sabbath and festivals were "reminders" of the relationship God had with ancient Israel, much like a ring is the reminder of the marriage covenant between humans. God wouldn't have "taken away" the Sabbath and festivals if they were moral laws...God doesn't take away enduring, moral laws...therefore the Sabbath and festivals are not enduring, moral laws.
And, as Colossians 2:16-17 points out, the Sabbath pointed to Jesus as our spiritual rest. See Matthew 11:28-30 and Hebrews 3-4 in this regard. The "rest of God", which is entering into the faith relationship with Jesus, or, in other words redemption, is displayed here by several types. One is the creation day rest of God...another is the Promised Land of ancient Israel...the Sabbath is another redemptive type, just like physical circumcision is a type of redemption.
Colossians 2:16-17 is powerful in this regard. It is so powerful that SDAs spend a lot of time trying to refute that it is talking about the weekly Sabbath, but it most certainly is. There is no place in the NT where sabbaton (the word used for Sabbaths) can be conclusively tied to anything other than the weekly Sabbath, yet SDAs attempt to claim that it is referring to something else.
As I've said before, though, I have no issue with Sabbathkeepers as long as they don't claim non-observers are in sin, and that keeping the Sabbath is a requirement, condition or necessary fruit of salvation.
Here's the article I mentioned. Understanding the points in it are very important to being consistent in one's discussion about the Sabbath with observers:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...aw-view-how-affects-sdas-torah-observers.html