Why are the oldest churches so unbiblical?

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Jan 21, 2017
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#1
I wanna make a topic about this, ive been wondering about this for the longest, as we all know the catholic church and the orthodox church are both ANCIENT, way older than any of the protestant denominations we have today, yet it appears to me that these are the MOST unbiblical churches we have!!!

Its amazing! Logically tihnking you would assume like "hey, they've been around the longest, thats the original doctrines right there" , and many do assume this, but if you want to look at it from a biblical point of view, its VERY different with all the praying to Mary and saints and angels and superduper angels, its a mess. Not to mention the core teaching on salvation is 100% works based, and worse than that, its not even BIBLICAL WORKS but completely man made works..........

And even today this is the main argument of catholics, hey, our church was founded earlier than yours and church fathers agree with us! But what about the bible? can tradition be added to it? Not in my opinion.

Now to the actual questions I'd want yalls opinion on:

1. We know catholics have been the majority of christians forever pretty much, BUT has there always been a remnant of bible believing Christians? Or was tradition plus writings the norm forever and we just messed it up at the reformation.

2. If there were no other christians except catholics, would that mean that EVERYONE was wrong for 1500 years? That seems like a stretch to me.

PS: if you are catholic and would like to show me that the bible approves of praying to saints and Mary, im all ears and willing to learn and listen.
 
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tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#2
I believe that all churches have unbiblical aspects, that does not mean that there is no value or purpose in such church. Being a Christian means being like Christ. Truthfully, I have met very few of these people.
 
Mar 21, 2017
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#3
I believe that all churches have unbiblical aspects, that does not mean that there is no value or purpose in such church. Being a Christian means being like Christ. Truthfully, I have met very few of these people.
Straight and narrow leads to life, and FEW be there that find it.
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#4
I believe that all churches have unbiblical aspects, that does not mean that there is no value or purpose in such church. Being a Christian means being like Christ. Truthfully, I have met very few of these people.
True, but to be honest I think the teachings of the catholic church are dangerous, manmade work salvation, strange eucharist concept where they sort of re-sacrifice Christ again and again, prayer to saints and angels and superduper angels and Mary.
To me this is very dangerous, BUT im open to hear biblical justifications for these teachings, I just cant see it myself, either its because im too dumb, just dont understand their doctrine properly or indoctrinated in the baptist circles.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#5
True, but to be honest I think the teachings of the catholic church are dangerous, manmade work salvation, strange eucharist concept where they sort of re-sacrifice Christ again and again, prayer to saints and angels and superduper angels and Mary.
To me this is very dangerous, BUT im open to hear biblical justifications for these teachings, I just cant see it myself, either its because im too dumb, just dont understand their doctrine properly or indoctrinated in the baptist circles.
I was born and raised a Catholic but no longer attend. I agree with your estimation.
 
Nov 19, 2016
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#6
It does not matter how old a certain Church is for that does not make it the truth,and the truth has always been out there,before the Protestant movement,but that movement made it more popular,but eventually it would have to happen,as people would get wiser as time went on to their ways,which I heard that they would not allow the common folk to read the Bible,so that would hinder the truth for they could tell them whatever.

God always had people in the truth throughout the Church age regardless the popularity of a Church,and influencing people,and God said that when Israel went astray,He will had 7000 men that did not bow the knee to Baal,and said He has Jews that are in the truth,although a lot were not.

The Roman Empire when they embraced Christianity did not get rid of their religious ways,but dragged them in to the Bible,and it became their foundation of the interpreting of scriptures,and why they are so off base,for their paganism shines through a lot.Joseph Smith,Scientology,and a lot of others did the same thing,drag a belief in to the Bible,and it becomes their foundation for interpreting scriptures.

Daniel had a vision of 4 beasts that would come up one after the other,Babylon,Medo-Persia,Greece,and the Roman Empire,which the first three beasts had their dominion taken away,but their ways are still on earth,and all show up at the beast kingdom,and will never have dominion again,but the Roman Empire does not have their dominion taken away until God puts them down,and the saints possess the kingdom on earth.

Since the Roman Empire has the dominion until the future put down of them,and the Roman Catholic Church,the Vatican,and Pope,is for the most part their religious system,then the Roman Catholic Church will be popular.

Which I believe it is for a purpose as she becomes the leader,Pope,and headquarters,Vatican,of a unified religious system,where all religions are valid for spiritual evolution,with a false interpretation of Christianity,Islam,and Judaism,to fit the standard format of the unified religious system,based on the new age movement,which means the Roman Catholic Church,and the Pope,are going to change more to fit that format,which means they already have it in the works,and will slowly introduce it,and since the Roman Catholic Church is pagan based,that interprets the Bible as such,it will not be that difficult for them to shuffle right along in to that transition,and the Roman Catholic Church,the Vatican,become mystery Babylon the great,the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth,for she represents all the false religions of the world,but I believe a lot of people claiming Catholic will abandon her at that time.

So there appears to be a purpose for the Roman Catholic Church,who is deceived by the Vatican and the Pope,as they slowly indoctrinate the new age movement,and the Roman Empire does not have their dominion taken away until God puts them,as they want to revert back to the old systems before Christianity,for they believe they are better systems than even the way America operates today,or anything else going on today,which they will slowly put the focus on people,and take it off God,and then in the beast kingdom,they believe in no personal God,but that kingdom will be of the occult like the good ole' days,but worse in arrogance,and the belief of it,and believe in the God of forces,which God tells us the last king will not honor the God of his fathers,and not regard any god,but honor the God of forces,for that will be their God,the force of nature,and trying to harness the power of nature for spiritual evolution.

The Churches that Jesus addressed in Revelation I believe is how the Church age will go in popular influence,although there is always people in the truth all through Church history.

1.Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

They left their first love,but at this popular moment the Roman Catholic Church did not come in to play yet.

2.Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

This appears as if it could be the beginning of the Roman Catholic Church,as their foundation is paganism,and somewhat of the occult.

Church age 3,4,5,6,7,the Roman Catholic Church is still popular,but people are kind of backing away,but not quite enough.

5.Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Then it appears as if a lot are backing away,which might be the beginning of the Protestant movement,for no mention of the synagogue of Satan,or any of that.

6.Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

This could be the Protestant movement when it is popular,which Jesus did not have anything to say amiss about them,but hold fast which they have,that no man take their crown,and also this popular Church age occurs when the hour of temptation comes upon all the world,to try them that dwell upon the earth,which Jesus will deliver them from that temptation for they abide in the truth,which there can only be one temptation that can come upon the whole world,and that is when the world says Peace and safety,which is when the world will come together and try to achieve peace on earth,that will eventually lead them to the beast kingdom,but Paul said that the people in the truth will not be deceived by that,for they know it is not the operation of God,but man going astray going against what God wants for the earth.

7.Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.

Now we are at this Church age which we see a lot of this with the prosperity Gospel,and a lot of people who claim Christ involved in material and monetary gain,but the Protestant,and the Catholic,are right there in popularity too.

This is what is seems like to me,and since the Roman Empire does not lose their dominion until God puts them down,then the Roman Catholic Church will be popular,but that does not make it the truth,and the purpose of it to be the head of all the false religions,as the Roman Empire has the dominion in the beast kingdom,with the Babylonian spirit,for she will never have physical dominion again,as they want to revert back to the systems of old,like Egypt,Babylon,and those type systems,for their kingdom is based on the occult.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#7
Good question - I doubt whether do will get a satisfactory answer this side of death.

I can't say they are totally unbiblical, some of their developed rituals and doctrines seem out to lunch - but they claim from tradition that what they do is "correct".

Personally I believe a "church" is free to develop its own style of worship, but not call it the only way and the practicing of it is the way of salvation.
 
Dec 1, 2014
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#8
I grew up in PCUSA. It's now on life support because foxes are now guarding the hen house and they're joyfully serving their master -- the father of lies.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
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#9
The Apostles and the believers at that time were the first Church and they were not roman catholic. Constantine converted around 325 A.D. there were councils around that time to get a doctrine of the Church together, it wasn't until many years after that when the roman catholic church began to pervert doctrine. I believe it wasn't until the 1600 that Mary became ever virgin and that they started praying to her.

There has always been a Church that had their doctrine right, many of them were killed by the roman catholic church during the inquisitions. The problem is that many when they say Church they are talking about the building, the Church are the called out ones, the body of Christ.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#10
Because men love darkness and not light.

Church is an organism not an organization.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#11
Why are the oldest churches so unbiblical?
its not that they are unbiblical, its just that they are different cause they are not the church you go to.

a question i always wondered, is it possible to follow Jesus and not obsess over what some other church does?
 

santuzza

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2013
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#12
To answer your question, yes, there have always been Christians fellowships outside of the Catholic church. There is strong evidence that there was a thriving church in England prior to Rome's invasion. There were also the Cathar "heretics" that the church of Rome warred against and, essentially, took out of existence. So I believe there have always been believers outside of the Catholic church.
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#13
its not that they are unbiblical, its just that they are different cause they are not the church you go to.

a question i always wondered, is it possible to follow Jesus and not obsess over what some other church does?
false.i provided examples of them being unbiblical, so provide evidence to contrary or my point stands.
i dont mind different, i do mind praying to saints angels and Mary, bowing to statues, etc etc etc
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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#14
The Apostles and the believers at that time were the first Church and they were not roman catholic. Constantine converted around 325 A.D. there were councils around that time to get a doctrine of the Church together, it wasn't until many years after that when the roman catholic church began to pervert doctrine. I believe it wasn't until the 1600 that Mary became ever virgin and that they started praying to her.

There has always been a Church that had their doctrine right, many of them were killed by the roman catholic church during the inquisitions. The problem is that many when they say Church they are talking about the building, the Church are the called out ones, the body of Christ.

If one wants to find out about the RCC and its dubious (to say the least) history I recommend the Book, The Woman Rides the Beast By David Hunter.... One can get it from amazon for Kindle real cheap.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#15
false.i provided examples of them being unbiblical, so provide evidence to contrary or my point stands.
i dont mind different, i do mind praying to saints angels and Mary, bowing to statues, etc etc etc
they have scriptures to back up everything they do, they just have a different view than you do.

why does it bother you what someone in another church does, are there Catholics out in the parking lot of your church disrupting your services every sunday.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#16
The OP identified both the Catholic church and the Orthodox church. While I won't defend either, let's be sure we don't paint both with the same brush, because they definitely are not the same. :)

I have read A Woman Rides the Beast, and would agree that the Catholic church has strayed far from biblical Christianity. I don't know enough about the Orthodox church to say much, but I know they don't submit to the Pope. The breach between Eastern and Western churches happened back in 1054. It's known as "The Great Schism".
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
369
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#17
I wanna make a topic about this, ive been wondering about this for the longest, as we all know the catholic church and the orthodox church are both ANCIENT, way older than any of the protestant denominations we have today, yet it appears to me that these are the MOST unbiblical churches we have!!!

Its amazing! Logically tihnking you would assume like "hey, they've been around the longest, thats the original doctrines right there" , and many do assume this, but if you want to look at it from a biblical point of view, its VERY different with all the praying to Mary and saints and angels and superduper angels, its a mess. Not to mention the core teaching on salvation is 100% works based, and worse than that, its not even BIBLICAL WORKS but completely man made works..........

And even today this is the main argument of catholics, hey, our church was founded earlier than yours and church fathers agree with us! But what about the bible? can tradition be added to it? Not in my opinion.

Now to the actual questions I'd want yalls opinion on:

1. We know catholics have been the majority of christians forever pretty much, BUT has there always been a remnant of bible believing Christians? Or was tradition plus writings the norm forever and we just messed it up at the reformation.

2. If there were no other christians except catholics, would that mean that EVERYONE was wrong for 1500 years? That seems like a stretch to me.

PS: if you are catholic and would like to show me that the bible approves of praying to saints and Mary, im all ears and willing to learn and listen.
Catholism is one of the earliest branch-offs from the church Christ created. There is only one church of Christ- the one that goes by the doctrine of New Testament only. Being old is not enough if it's not the first. Anything after the first is false. Therefore, the newer it is from Christ till now, the more you can be certain that it's false.

It has to match the church that Christ started, and has to be the first and only church Christ started.

"One Lord, one Faith (belief/practice/church), one baptism."
 
Feb 21, 2017
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#18
The Christians that had the more sound doctrine that believed in Ephesians 2:8-9. Most them were martyred by the Roman Catholic Church and their Inquisition for the faith and they were the real church the body of Christ. Over 150 million saints were killed in that time period you mentioned for 1500 years for not giving up the faith. The proof can be seen from a book called Fox's book of martyrs.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,425
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#19
I wanna make a topic about this, ive been wondering about this for the longest, as we all know the catholic church and the orthodox church are both ANCIENT, way older than any of the protestant denominations we have today, yet it appears to me that these are the MOST unbiblical churches we have!!!

Its amazing! Logically tihnking you would assume like "hey, they've been around the longest, thats the original doctrines right there" , and many do assume this, but if you want to look at it from a biblical point of view, its VERY different with all the praying to Mary and saints and angels and superduper angels, its a mess. Not to mention the core teaching on salvation is 100% works based, and worse than that, its not even BIBLICAL WORKS but completely man made works..........

And even today this is the main argument of catholics, hey, our church was founded earlier than yours and church fathers agree with us! But what about the bible? can tradition be added to it? Not in my opinion.

Now to the actual questions I'd want yalls opinion on:

1. We know catholics have been the majority of christians forever pretty much, BUT has there always been a remnant of bible believing Christians? Or was tradition plus writings the norm forever and we just messed it up at the reformation.

2. If there were no other christians except catholics, would that mean that EVERYONE was wrong for 1500 years? That seems like a stretch to me.

PS: if you are catholic and would like to show me that the bible approves of praying to saints and Mary, im all ears and willing to learn and listen.
The catholic church was not the first church.. it was started by the emperor Constantine... There where always Christians from every generation one of the catholic churches occupations was to burn these true Christians at the stake or have then persecuted and killed in other ways..

Don't even ask for a catholic to try to justify their abomination of praying to Saints and Mary.. You should never be willing to learn and listen to the false traditions of men that are in rebellion against the will of God..
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#20
I agree there are a multitude of non-Biblical practices in the RCC and Orthodox churches. However, the Orthodox Church has some distinctions which make it closer to the Bible than the RCC.

First, it also claims to be the first and earliest church. Orthodox churches cover the Holy Land and the Levant. Many of these churches are ancient, and pre-date the RCC churches. Many of them are on supposed Biblical sites. This church claims to date to before Constantine.The western church makes claims about being first, because it really isn't acquainted with the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Another distinctive of the Orthodox Church is use of the vernacular. This means that each country uses its own language, and did not use Latin. The Bible was also written in the local language, and people were encouraged to read the Bible, although of course, the "saints" and their writings were also considered to be important to read. There was never a time when the Orthodox Church could not read the Bible, nor was it in a language that no one spoke, like the RCC was with Latin, for so many years.

Although the filoque clause was the cause of the Great Schism, the Orthodox Church also refused to come under the authority of the pope. Each language division of the church has a Patriarch, but they are not considered to be the "vicar" of Christ, as the pope is. Priests marry, as Peter had a mother-in-law. This has resulted in much less abuse by priests than the RCC!

The Orthodox Church has a long tradition of prayer and worship. Apparently the services last 3 hours, and in many churches, people or at least the priest, stand the whole time. I have been to funerals in the Orthodox Church, and they seemed endless. Although, ironically, one of the very distinctives that allowed people to read the Bible, has become a barrier in North America. Each division kept their language, but the next generations did not keep the language. Hence, as a third generation Orthodox, I had no idea of the language, and it was a barrier to me understanding the service. Most Orthodox churches are filled with old people, and the services are in a language which is not English. Although there is an Orthodox Church of America, which I believe is in English.

Like the RCC, the Orthodox Church considers Mary to be the Mother of God. In theory they do not pray to Mary, but "venerate" her. My experience is that many do pray to Mary, and just the title is enough to make you realize it is very unbiblical.

Personally, I do not really understand all the traditions and rites and rituals of the Orthodox Church. I do know one thing, and that is my grandmother was born again! She would tell all her grandchildren "you gotta believe in de Jesus." Some of her daughters branched into different churches, such as Lutheran and Catholic and Anglican. One daughter became a feminist and irreligious, (my family attended the Unitarian Church for a few years with them) Yet surprisingly, many of the grandchildren became born-again, even though our parents were not, or were stuck in the RCC. We went for dinner one time with members from most of the family. Many of us volunteered to say grace, and it was not a ritual when it was said - but a heartfelt cry to God. I suppose one could say that my grandmother did influence those of us who became born again. Whether that was because of the Orthodox background, or in spite of it, I do not know. I'm just glad for a Christian heritage, even if it was not Protestant!