Defense of the Last 12 Verses of Mark against James White, Daniel Wallace and Erhman

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calvinsx76

Senior Member
Jun 19, 2016
107
0
16
#1
Hello everyone

In my ongoing debate with James White, Daniel Wallace and Bart Erhman, I lead off the defense of these last 12 verses of St. Mark by challenging them to demonstrate, if these verses are not genuine, then please empirically document how these 12 verses were added to almost all of the texts preserved by the apostolic churches without anyone even noticing. The first 5 minute is a cartoon animation focusing on their scribe theory. For those on the other side of the issue, it is one thing to say some scribe added it, but its another thing to prove it. The second part of the video is a legal defense of these last 12 verses.

https://youtu.be/ekIyxjy00nU

When I reached out to Dr. Wilbur Pickering, he was kind enough to allow me to use him in this fourth video of mine going over the textual evidence.

Interested in hearing everyone's thoughts.
 
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wsblind

Guest
#2
I lead off the defense of these last 12 verses of St. Mark by challenging them to demonstrate, if these verses are not genuine, then please empirically document how these 12 verses were added to almost all of the texts preserved by the apostolic churches without anyone even noticing.
This doesn't make any sense to me. If it wasn't noticed, there would be not debate.

The oldest and most reliable texts for translation did not have these verses in them.............that is why people noticed and many of our modern translation make a note of it.
 

calvinsx76

Senior Member
Jun 19, 2016
107
0
16
#3
Well, adding 12 verses to the text is a physical act. First someone had to come up with the verses, and then they had to add them into almost all the texts throughout the ancient world. These were historical times, and we have records from almost every period in church history. One word was changed in Jonah from gourde to ivy and the congregations of North Africa rioted causing Augustine to write Jerome regarding the translation of this word in his vulgate. The origins and history of those manuscripts are unknown. You don't know who wrote them, or if they were ever used by the official apostolic churches. The official churches founded by the apostles almost all have those 12 verses. So if you are saying they were added, then you have to document how they were added to all the texts. We know of texts that didn't have the last 12 verses, but when Victor of Antioch verified this against the best and most accurate texts in the 4th century, they all had it. Jerome was also aware of Eusebius comment, but his investigation showed these verses to be genuine, which is why its included in his Vulgate also in the fourth century.
 
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wsblind

Guest
#4
Well, adding 12 verses to the text is a physical act. First someone had to come up with the verses, and then they had to add them into almost all the texts throughout the ancient world. These were historical times, and we have records from almost every period in church history. One word was changed in Jonah from gourde to ivy and the congregations of North Africa rioted causing Augustine to write Jerome regarding the translation of this word in his vulgate. The origins and history of those manuscripts are unknown. You don't know who wrote them, or if they were ever used by the official apostolic churches. The official churches founded by the apostles almost all have those 12 verses. So if you are saying they were added, then you have to document how they were added to all the texts. We know of texts that didn't have the last 12 verses, but when Victor of Antioch verified this against the best and most accurate texts in the 4th century, they all had it. Jerome was also aware of Eusebius comment, but his investigation showed these verses to be genuine, which is why its included in his Vulgate also in the fourth century.
I believe that the ancient world and the closer the ancient world was to translating His word(they were into/closer to signs and wonders) would have been more apt to "push" these verses into Mark. We live by the unseen, faith.

can you give us empirical evidence that they truly belong?
 

calvinsx76

Senior Member
Jun 19, 2016
107
0
16
#5
Of course, we have the empirical evidence. But how were they pushed in? Who were arguing for these verses to get into the text of Mark. We know of Marcion Text, who edited the text of luke and ten letters of Paul making it shorter yet not better, and everyone noticed, and wrote against Marcion. Gauis wrote of 4 heretics in the second century altering texts outside the church. The valentians were pushing their Gospel of Truth. The apostolic churches were well aware. Do you see how I can historically document all this activity, but you cannot show who "pushed it" into the text. Do you see why I call this a fairy tale. You could never argue this way in any normal court of law. speculation is not evidence.

Now this criteria I am going over with you was used by Tertullian and Ireneus in the second century against the Gnostics to rule out their texts. We known the historical churches founded by the apostles. Alexandria, both the Greek and the Copic Churches, the official church were Eusebuis writes that St. Mark founded has the ending of Mark. Pauls Greek Churches almost all witness to these 12 verses. So we have all these independent witnesses, that can trace back to the apostles, have these last 12 verses in the text.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,943
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#6
It is virtually certain that Mark 16:9-20 is a later addition and not the original ending of Mark. The evidence is numerous and complex.

Since none of the original autograph copies of NT documents survive, the Greek text of the NT is constructed from later copies of manuscripts dating from AD 135 to AD 1200. There are over 5000 of these, which range from scraps the size of a postage stamp, to complete manuscripts of the Bible. In general, these copies show remarkable agreement! The notorious exception to this happy rule, is the ending of Mark, which presents the gravest textual problem in the NT.

The two oldest and most important manuscripts, Codex Vatican's (B) and codex Sinaiticus (Alef) omit 16:9-20 as do several early manuscripts or versions, including the Old Latin and the Synaptic Syriac manuscript, about 100 Armenian manuscripts and the two oldest Georgian manuscripts. Neither Clement of Alexandria nor Origen shows any awareness of the longer ending, and Eusebius and Jerome attest that vv 9-20 were absent from the majority of Greek copies of Mark known to them. An ingenious system of cross-referencing parallel passages in the Gospels was devised by Ammonius in the 2nd century and adopted by Eusebius in the fourth century, which do not contain Mark 16:9-20.

The fact that some manuscripts include the longer ending, means it was added quite early, and then incorporated into subsequent copies of the gospel. However, even when this ending is included, it is often noted that the ending is regarded as a spurious addition to the Gospel. External evident (manuscript witnesses) thus argues strongly against the originality of the Longer Ending.

Literary criticism or internal evidence also argues against the Longer Ending! In verse 16:8, the subject is the frightened and fleeing women, verse 9 begins by presupposing the resurrected Jesus,who appears to Mary Magdalene. She is presented as a "newcomer" ("out of whom [Jesus] had driven 7 demons") although Mark had mentioned her three times before (15:20, 47; 16:1) In vv 9-20 Jesus is for the first time in Mark referred to as the "Lord Jesus" (19) or the "Lord" rather than Mark's custom of calling Jesus by his given name in the rest of Mark. Such reverential nomenclature likely derives from later Christian worship! (In other words, a high Christology not present in Mark, and thus an anachronism.)

Particularly noticeable is the namer of new words that appear nowhere else in Mark. There are 52 new words, found no where else in Mark, in only 11 verses. Plus, there are several unique word forms and syntactical constructions. Several of Mark's stylistic features are likewise absent from the longer ending, notably, the absence of the kai "και" in Mark's sentence structure and the absence of historical present tense of verbs and the absence of euthys.

The longer ending also contains peculiar themes to itself,, some of which contradict Markan themes. The repeated chastisement of the disciples for their "disbelief", of the gospel proclamation, is unique to the longer ending, and the prominence given to charismatic signs in vv 17-18 in stark contrast to the reserve of Jesus in Mark with regard to signs and sensation.

Plus these themes of drinking poison and handling snakes are not found anywhere else in Scripture, except perhaps for the "involuntary" bite of the viper with Paul in Acts 28:3-6. The expectation of both having some supporting manuscript evidence from elsewhere in the NT, and that these two activities are supposed to be regular "signs" even though not talked about elsewhere. As I often say, you cannot make a doctrine out of one appearance of something, especially when it is as bizarre as drinking poison and found no where else, really points to the fact that the longer ending is not valid.

In many respects, vv 9-20 have something of a "secondhand" flavour, and it looks like a pastiche of elements drawn from the other gospels and Acts.

The style of the Longer Ending as a whole reads very differently from Mark's lively and expansive narrative, and contains a noticeable concentration of words not found elsewhere in Mark. In particular, v 20 reads more like a pious committee summaries of the post-Easter task and experience of the church, than like the way Mark writes his gospel.

For these reasons, it is the almost unanimous conclusion of scholars that the Longer Ending represent well-meaning attempts, probably some time in the 2nd century, to fit in the perceived gap left by the "unfinished" ending at 16:8, by drawing eclectically on what had by then become the familiar traditions of the post-apostolic church. Thus, the Longer Ending of Mark is an incongruous addition to the gospel.


The Gospel According to Mark: The Pillar New Testament Commentary, James, R Edwards, William B Eerdemans Publishing, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 2002.

The Gospel of Mark: The New International Greek Testament Commentary, R. T France, William B Eerdmans Publishing, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 2002.
 
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wsblind

Guest
#7
Of course, we have the empirical evidence. But how were they pushed in? Who were arguing for these verses to get into the text of Mark. We know of Marcion Text, who edited the text of luke and ten letters of Paul making it shorter yet not better, and everyone noticed, and wrote against Marcion. Gauis wrote of 4 heretics in the second century altering texts outside the church. The valentians were pushing their Gospel of Truth. The apostolic churches were well aware. Do you see how I can historically document all this activity, but you cannot show who "pushed it" into the text. Do you see why I call this a fairy tale. You could never argue this way in any normal court of law. speculation is not evidence.

Now this criteria I am going over with you was used by Tertullian and Ireneus in the second century against the Gnostics to rule out their texts. We known the historical churches founded by the apostles. Alexandria, both the Greek and the Copic Churches, the official church were Eusebuis writes that St. Mark founded has the ending of Mark. Pauls Greek Churches almost all witness to these 12 verses. So we have all these independent witnesses, that can trace back to the apostles, have these last 12 verses in the text.
What Angela said. Take it or leave it.
 

calvinsx76

Senior Member
Jun 19, 2016
107
0
16
#8
But I am still waiting for you to document historically who added these verses, "Well meaning scribes" is not evidence, because you can't show who there were, how they got it into all the churches texts.


Now in my video Dr. Pickering who is qualified to go over the textual evidence, shows the support is overwhelming for these verses. The official Greek and Coptic Church of Alexandria, where St. Mark Presided over as its first Bishop as recorded by Eusebius has these 12 verses of st mark in their Greek and Coptic Texts. of the 1800 Greeks texts we have, only three don't have it...Vaticanus, Sinaticus and a miniscule from the 12th century. 8000 Latin manuscripts except 1 all have it. The Coptic, the Ethiopian, the Gothic all have it. These apostolic churches go all the way back to the apostles. Ireneus quotes it in the second century, Tatian has it in Assyria even earlier. Do you see how I can document, but all you tell me is well meaning scribes. That is not evidence, that's a fairytale. Who do I investiage some unkown scribe, in some unknown land that history has not documented. Do you see how silly that sounds?
 

calvinsx76

Senior Member
Jun 19, 2016
107
0
16
#9
You have still not proved your scribe theory. How do I investigate a make believe scribe from an unknown land and unknown time. We know of the production of bad texts throughout history, by many groups, but these are different from the texts from the apostolic churches. If I went to court showing all these independent witnesses are saying the same thing, that would be conclusive. Yet your scribe theory is just speculation. You don't give any dates, times, names for an event you say took place.

Take that.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,943
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#10
Are you talking to me?? If you don't believe the external evidence, then you need to counter the internal evidence, which you have not even touched on. That is what convinces me!
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
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#11
The problem is the dark ages, the Roman Catholic church was in control of manuscripts along with church history and they still are. From what I understand that's why Francis J. Beckwith converted to the RCC, because he wanted to research church history further than he could go as an Evangelical.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#12
An ingenious system of cross-referencing parallel passages in the Gospels was devised by Ammonius in the 2nd century and adopted by Eusebius in the fourth century, which do not contain Mark 16:9-20.
This one bit of evidence is conclusive proof.
If you have the whole cross-referencing system, it is there as an aid to quickly help
preachers and teachers gain insight.

As the verses in the end of Mark are all valid cross-reference material so to not be
mentioned means they were not present for the people who made the system.

And the verses add nothing new to the factual story, so are not necessary, except
the details being missing suggests a partial testimony which others maybe wanted to fill.

What is also strange is the summaried nature of the passage going on into demonstration
of the power of Jesus in His followers which is not at all a detailed historic, incident by
incident portrail of events like the whole tenor of Mark itself.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#13
Well, adding 12 verses to the text is a physical act. First someone had to come up with the verses, and then they had to add them into almost all the texts throughout the ancient world.
Actually, I do not think you have to prove the exact time of adding something to the text to prove it was added. Some estimated time span is enough.

You say it is in the Vulgate from the 4th century.
But we have only one manuscript of Vulgate from the 4th century, Codex Vercellensis and this one has exactly those verses in Mark apparently inserted later.

One thing is to say that some work (like Vulgate) is originally from some early century and the other thing is to realize that we do not have original, only later copies and it could be added to them as well as to Greek texts later.

Important note - this "hunt" for the originals is only a protestant idea. I do not think originals are so important. The use of later additions in church made them canonized (so called "church text" as opposite to "critical text") as if they were in the originals.
 
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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#14
Important note2 - so your defence of the last verses of Mark does not have to be a hunt for the original Mark, but you can just say "I believe these verses to be inspired because the common church recognized them to be inspired word of God during centuries".

No arguments with textual critics needed.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#15
2 Tim 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
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#16
Important note2 - so your defence of the last verses of Mark does not have to be a hunt for the original Mark, but you can just say "I believe these verses to be inspired because the common church recognized them to be inspired word of God during centuries".

No arguments with textual critics needed.
different churches held different views so 'the common church' recognising inspiration is just not true.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#17
different churches held different views so 'the common church' recognising inspiration is just not true.
Which church did not use the long ending of Mark?

Western latin church - used it. Orthodox eastern church - used it. Protestant churches - also used it.

So it was really used in so called "common church" for over a thousand years. What else do you need for a canonization?
 
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jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
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#18
You can find a blog Here that I did on this subject
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#19
You can find a blog Here that I did on this subject
1. Early church fathers proofs you listed are quite weak, its better to quote the places from them than just talk about them talking about this.

2. "Mark 16v9-20 is contained in every MS in the world except two" - actually I am not sure what do you mean by this, many manuscripts are just fragments of the NT, not full texts. So it is impossible that all except two have it.

3. Versions - can you actually show manuscript of those versions from the datation you provide that have this longer ending or only later manuscripts that can be (and are) tempered like the Greek ones?
 
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jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
588
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#20
1. Early church fathers proofs you listed are quite weak, its better to quote the places from them than just talk about them talking about this.

2. "Mark 16v9-20 is contained in every MS in the world except two" - actually I am not sure what do you mean by this, many manuscripts are just fragments of the NT, not full texts. So it is impossible that all except two have it.

3. Versions - can you actually show manuscript of those versions from the datation you provide that have this longer ending or only later manuscripts that can be (and are) tempered like the Greek ones?
Try reading the reference I gave, Dean John W Burgon was (probably) the greatest defender of Bibliology!

You think you know more that he did?

LOL!