The Order of Salvation

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
#1
Encase someone wants to say that you have to be baptized to be saved. Baptism is after rebirth and has nothing to do with rebirth it's an appeal of a good conscience toward God, I Peter 3:21. Your sins need to be forgiven to have a good conscience toward God.

Peter gives the order of salvation I Peter 1:2 "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." Your salvation is by the election of the Father, the sanctification of the Spirit or rebirth, what is the result of the election and sanctification it brings us to the obedience of Christ. The triune God in our salvation. Paul also writes the same thing.

II Corinthians 13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Obedience by grace, elect from love and communion through sanctification.

Again Paul says in Titus 3:4-7 "But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Not by works of righteousness but according to mercy, He saves us, by washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit, which Jesus poured out on us and we are justified by grace.

What does Jesus say John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." If you are not born again you can not see the kingdom of God, so you would not know you need to repent, have faith or be baptized.

Then, Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Here He's talking about entering the kingdom, one must be born of water and Spirit. Peter and James say we're born by the word of truth or the word of God and Paul says the word is water that sanctifies us.

James 1:18 " Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures." We are brought forth or born again of the Fathers will by the word of truth.

I Peter 1:22-23 "Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever" Peter says we obeyed the truth through the Spirit, being born again, through the word of God, which he call truth. Listen to what Jesus says about the word.

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." Remember He said to enter the king down we need to be born of water and the Spirit. So we are born by the word and the Spirit, water means the word, listen to what Paul says in.

Ephesians 5:25-26 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word," That Jesus might sanctify and cleanse the Church with the washing of water by the word.

So we need to be born again to see the kingdom by being born again or regenerated by washing and renewed by the Spirit like Paul said in.


Titus 3:4-7 "But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."


To the newness of life as Paul says in Romans 6:4 "Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
#2
I Corinthians 12:12-13 "For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."


We are baptized into the body of Christ by the Spirit, that includes His death and resurrection, this is our union with Christ and adoption, which is another blessing of our salvation by grace. Here's something interesting, it says, made to drink into one Spirit, you drink liquid, could Paul be alluding to the water of the word and the Spirit?


So we are regenerated to see the kingdom by the word and the Spirit, now we see the need for faith and repentance. Faith justifies us, Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law." We are sanctified by the Father and preserved in Christ.”


In the epistles except for I Peter, all the baptisms are about the Spirit baptism, unless I missed them. The main focus of the epistles is the The Father, Christ and Spirit and how they work in our salvation. They don't rely speak to water baptism, do we need to be water baptized, yes for sure, does it save us, only in that it an appeal toward God of a good conscience.


Why because, Ephesians 1:3-12 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.


In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.”

Ephesians 2:1-10 “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.



But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”


All according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, elect/chosen to regeneration, justification is by faith, sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ, preseverance in Christ Jesus, until glorification, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#3
Encase someone wants to say that you have to be baptized to be saved. Baptism is after rebirth and has nothing to do with rebirth it's an appeal of a good conscience toward God, I Peter 3:21. Your sins need to be forgiven to have a good conscience toward God.

Peter gives the order of salvation I Peter 1:2 "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." Your salvation is by the election of the Father, the sanctification of the Spirit or rebirth, what is the result of the election and sanctification it brings us to the obedience of Christ. The triune God in our salvation. Paul also writes the same thing.

II Corinthians 13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Obedience by grace, elect from love and communion through sanctification.

Again Paul says in Titus 3:4-7 "But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Not by works of righteousness but according to mercy, He saves us, by washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit, which Jesus poured out on us and we are justified by grace.

What does Jesus say John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." If you are not born again you can not see the kingdom of God, so you would not know you need to repent, have faith or be baptized.

Then, Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Here He's talking about entering the kingdom, one must be born of water and Spirit. Peter and James say we're born by the word of truth or the word of God and Paul says the word is water that sanctifies us.

James 1:18 " Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures." We are brought forth or born again of the Fathers will by the word of truth.

I Peter 1:22-23 "Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever" Peter says we obeyed the truth through the Spirit, being born again, through the word of God, which he call truth. Listen to what Jesus says about the word.

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." Remember He said to enter the king down we need to be born of water and the Spirit. So we are born by the word and the Spirit, water means the word, listen to what Paul says in.

Ephesians 5:25-26 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word," That Jesus might sanctify and cleanse the Church with the washing of water by the word.

So we need to be born again to see the kingdom by being born again or regenerated by washing and renewed by the Spirit like Paul said in.


Titus 3:4-7 "But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."


To the newness of life as Paul says in Romans 6:4 "Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Baptism is required. Just not the H2O version.
John 4. (Sorry, too long to post it all, but if you check it out, that's the baptism the is required.)
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
#4
Exactly, that in these two posts, the baptism of the Spirit or the new birth is how you know you need to be water baptized, but you are already born again.
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#5
Baptism is required. Just not the H2O version.
John 4. (Sorry, too long to post it all, but if you check it out, that's the baptism the is required.)
How do you know (in yourself) that this has occurred? And even more to the point, how do you "qualify" another person as having had this happen to them?
 

lastofall

Senior Member
Aug 26, 2014
609
38
28
#6
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16)

This is all that matters concerning the issue.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#7
How do you know (in yourself) that this has occurred? And even more to the point, how do you "qualify" another person as having had this happen to them?
I you can't tell its probable that you aren't. The same if they can't tell.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#8
How do you know (in yourself) that this has occurred? And even more to the point, how do you "qualify" another person as having had this happen to them?
The second answer is easier. I don't really have to know that for another person, do I? God is in control, so he will baptize (living water, not H2O) whomever he chooses.

The first question? Not easy, but over the long haul I have no doubt anymore. And I did have doubt for 30 years or so. Mostly, God won't let me go in the long haul.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#9
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16)

This is all that matters concerning the issue.
Is it? Because I've known people who seem to have believed for years, but fell away. They were the seeds that fell on rocky soil. Might yet make it, but they have surely withered.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
#10
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16)

This is all that matters concerning the issue.
It doesn't say, but he that believes not or is not baptized shall be damned. Jesus doesn't place an importance on water baptism. Again as stated at the beginning of this post. Water baptism is a sign of a good conscience toward God or as Paul quoting David says

Psalms 32:1-2 "Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man against whom the LORD [SUP]l[/SUP]counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit."

Having no deceit in our spirit, because the Lord has forgiven our transgressions, He's covered our sin and He does not account our iniquity against us, that a good conscience toward God.

Salvation is by grace not of works and not of your doing that any man can boast, baptism is a work, it's something you do.
 
Last edited:

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,035
13,041
113
58
#11
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16)

This is all that matters concerning the issue.
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
#12
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Wow we think alike or pretty much the same, I'm sure there's something we would disagree on. God Bless
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,817
25,994
113
#13
John the baptist affirms in all four gospels that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit.

Two of the four gospels say Holy Spirit and fire :)
 
Dec 9, 2011
13,715
1,723
113
#15
You must be physically born of a women and born of the Spirit of GOD.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
#16
You must be physically born of a women and born of the Spirit of GOD.
Amen!!! Before baptism you must be born again. John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

You can not see the kingdom of God, which means you do not see a need to be baptized, have faith or repent, why? Because you do not have a good conscience toward God, which happens when we are regenerated or born again. Notice, once you see the kingdom, that's when the need to be born of water and the Spirit, per the posts above, this is not being born again.

Verse 7, "Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again." Referring back to verse 3, look at how Jesus finishes verse 8, "So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." Jesus did not say, so is everyone who is born of water and the Spirit. So those born of the Spirit and the word, are being sanctified by the word and the Spirit.

John 17:17 "
Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth."

Ephesians 5:26-27 "that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,
that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish."

II Thessalonians 2:13-14 "But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

I Peter 1:2, 22-23 "
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:.....Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,"

The word is the water that is washing or
sanctifying, the word is truth which we obeyed through the Spirit and being born again through the word of God. Sum it all up and you being born of water and the Spirit. You have no clue of being baptized, having faith or to repent, unless you've been born again. This act is monergistic, God brings it about through the Spirit, then our sanctification with the Lord is synergistic.

Philippians 2:12-13 "
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

Romans 8:13 "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."