WINNERS & LOSERS

[eternally-gratefull]

Folks in this forum as in other forums go at it over different issues, for example does Jesus gather the church before the tribulation or after the tribulation. There are others, women Pastors, two baptisms, gifts of the Spirit, once saved always saved, and others. Most of these issues are either or, either one side is true or the other side, as in the gathering of the church, Jesus either gathers the church before the tribulation or after the tribulation. Which brings me to my point, of winners and losers, if six people are claiming pre-trib gathering, and six other people are claiming a post-trib gathering...then six people have to be losers, folks who have missed God in that area and are believing Satan. I

If all 12 people are saved, None are losers.. Because they will all be in heaven for eternity no matter what.

If all 12 people are not saved, then all are losers. Because non will be in heaven.

What they believed concerning the return of Christ (when) does not matter,, and will have no bearing on where they will spend eternity.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You asked for the lie of Satan, not a list of them; I gave but the first.

I would say it is the only one that matters, for it is the base or root of all his lies.

It is the one lie that keeps people from finding God and getting saved..

even the lie of works salvationalsim,, is a lie, that you will not die, It says you are ok.. because you work so hard.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi SS: My point was to be ready and willing to change your mind when you find that truth is something different then what you have been believing it to be.

That goes for you also..

Just because you think you are right, does not mean you are.

 

[samuel23]

Hi EG: Question, why would James write this to Christians?, brethren if any of you do err from the truth and one convert him(bring him back to the truth of God), let him know that he which converted the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death. In this verse, James calls a Christian who is not in God's truth a sinner who is headed for death...that does not sound like a winner to me. None of us are perfect for sure, however this idea that God does not really care if we believe and teach things contrary to what is in scripture, is totally false, God does care and will judge.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi EG: Question, why would James write this to Christians?, brethren if any of you do err from the truth and one convert him(bring him back to the truth of God), let him know that he which converted the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death. In this verse, James calls a Christian who is not in God's truth a sinner who is headed for death...that does not sound like a winner to me. None of us are perfect for sure, however this idea that God does not really care if we believe and teach things contrary to what is in scripture, is totally false, God does care and will judge.

James is not talking about people who discuss when Christ will return.

You can not prove your point, until Christ returns all we have is speculation.

God will not judge you based on what you believed..

if we have to get every truth in scripture correct. There will probably be no one in heaven, I have yet to mean any two people who believe the same in all areas..

 

[Adstar]

Folks in this forum as in other forums go at it over different issues, for example does Jesus gather the church before the tribulation or after the tribulation. There are others, women Pastors, two baptisms, gifts of the Spirit, once saved always saved, and others. Most of these issues are either or, either one side is true or the other side, as in the gathering of the church, Jesus either gathers the church before the tribulation or after the tribulation. Which brings me to my point, of winners and losers, if six people are claiming pre-trib gathering, and six other people are claiming a post-trib gathering...then six people have to be losers, folks who have missed God in that area and are believing Satan. If you are believing a false teaching that does not come from God then it stands to reason that it had to come from Satan. I just want folks to be aware that when ten people are taking different sides on an issue, whether it is five vs five, or two vs eight, or whatever, that one side has rejected the truth of God and has believed the lie of Satan. This is very serious, the fall of the human race came about because a person believed the lie of Satan rather then the truth of God.

I believe there are CORE doctrines.. that are essential to ones eternal salvation.. disagreement on these CORE doctrines are of a very serious salvational matter.. Things like did Jesus die on the cross or was Jesus raised from the dead. or are we saved by the atonement or are we saved by works.. issues like these are CORE doctrines where disagreement really does have eternal consequences..

But i would not call things like rapture and rapture timing or even OSAS as critical Core doctrines where disagreement determines ones eternal destiny.. Also i am very hezitant to declare anyone who believes differnely to me on these issues to be of satan... That is a huge accusation to level upon someone who claims to believe Jesus and trust in the atonement for their salvation.. Yes there is the Holy Spirit lead correct position for all these non Core doctrines and those who have it correct have been given understanding through the Holy Spirit.. But to say that all other POV come from satan is really pushing it a bit too far.. I believe people are quite capable of going bejond what the Holy Spirit has revealed to them in doctrinal discussion and winding up expousing the wrong position on a given doctrine..

The scriptures say::

1 Corinthians 11:KJV
17 "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. {18} For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. {19} For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."

 

[Rockrz]

But i would not call things like ... OSAS as critical Core doctrines

OSAS is not a biblical doctrine, and it turns the grace of our Lord into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4) and is very, very deadly in that it leads people to believe they are not responsible unto the Lord to actually walk with Him in close personal fellowship which violates God's original intent when He created man in the first place!

Thanks to popular TV preachers making merchandise of their viewers, mMany today think a little lip service unto the Lord is all that's needed while their lifestyle is living after the flesh and the pleasures of this world. Critical mistake!

There are plenty of verses in the New Covenant that dispel the myth of OSAS... those that ignore God's warnings do so at their own peril.

 

[Blain]

There has always been the issue of arguing over different doctrinal beliefs because people have different views and interpretations and we all have different levels of maturity and understanding. you will likely not find one person with the exact same beliefs and understanding regardless what the topic is. This does not however excuse us with how we treat each other in our debates. Even heated debates have a purpose and can help one mature and grow in Christ but only if that person has a willing and teachable heart, one must have the humility to admit that their views may in fact be wrong and learn from others.

We as Christians and we who claim to be love who preach of love and who teach of love are all the more accountable to practice what we preach,if we cannot debate and discuss simple things without throwing stones at each other should we even be debating? We also must consider our reason and motives for debating, as with everything in life it begins and ends with our hearts. The reason and motives in our hearts are a clear factor of how we debate and why we do, many seem to love to debate but do they debate for the right reasons? Do we debate to learn and grow in love and in wisdom and maturity and to help others in this manner as well as ourselves or do we go into these debates for the heck of it or to prove ourselves right or to force our views on others?

We must all search our hearts and [ponder our reasons and motives and the interesting thing about heated debates for me at least is that while I do not allow myself to get to caught up in the flames of war among believers when i look at how I respond to others i can see and learn what i am lacking. if i am lacking in love then i must learn to respond more lovingly if i am lacking in patience in my response then i must work on becoming more patient if my emotions rise easily and i get caught up in the moment easily then I must seek to be as still waters

 

[Stephen63]

You make a very seriously flawed assumption.......... that ANY of the presumptive interpretations HAS to be right, while others are, therefore, wrong.. And even worse, you often give just two, assuming that the choice has to be between THOSE two.

Your whole argument seems to be as skewed as the disagreements you evaluate.

If he is saying there's only two, God's side & Satan's side, then there are only two.

As a matter of fact, Jesus shows us who those two are, and it is quite lop-sided.

Mat 7:13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Since there's a falling away within the church in the last days, the number of the wide gate is HUGE. Those left will be few.

Using this with the two main sides within CC, we have the OSAS/Hyp******e side, which is becoming quite large with new members joining daily, and all the others that don't, which are small.

You have to admit, Willie, your side's quite large.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OSAS is not a biblical doctrine, and it turns the grace of our Lord into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4) and is very, very deadly in that it leads people to believe they are not responsible unto the Lord to actually walk with Him in close personal fellowship which violates God's original intent when He created man in the first place!

Thanks to popular TV preachers making merchandise of their viewers, mMany today think a little lip service unto the Lord is all that's needed while their lifestyle is living after the flesh and the pleasures of this world. Critical mistake!

There are plenty of verses in the New Covenant that dispel the myth of OSAS... those that ignore God's warnings do so at their own peril.

Osas is just another term for eternal security. only may differ in how they say it,, And it is based on faith in Christ, Pride is completely removed.

Licentiousness and legalism are two sides of the same coin, Pride.. One says I can say a prayewr and I am saved, I do not have to repent. The other says I am not a sinner, so god loves me, and will save me based on my actions, Not my faith.

for this reason, Doctrines like OSAS, Eternal security, Legalism are essential doctrines. Because they teach basic facts of what people think must be done to gain or receive salvation.

 

[samuel23]

Hey EG: You kind of made my point, you just added to scripture in order to make it more comfortable to you by saying that James was not writing about Christ return. Of course James was writing about Christ return and everything else that Jesus taught. My point is that Christians today have become so accustom to changing the word of God to make it conform to what they want that most do not even realize they are doing it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hey EG: You kind of made my point, you just added to scripture in order to make it more comfortable to you by saying that James was not writing about Christ return. Of course James was writing about Christ return and everything else that Jesus taught. My point is that Christians today have become so accustom to changing the word of God to make it conform to what they want that most do not even realize they are doing it.

oh Boy.

Keep thinking that, According to your point, You better be 100 % correct in every one of Gods teachings, or you will be in hell.

Again, Good luck,, You can not prove post trib, Any more than any one can prove pre-trib, All we have is our views. Making it a salvation issue is not only dangerous, But is part of the reason the church is so divided. and the world just laughs at us..

 

[sevenseas]

Hi SS: My point was to be ready and willing to change your mind when you find that truth is something different then what you have been believing it to be.

okay

but I didn't get that impression when I read your post

but yes, we should be ok with changing our minds about things

 

[Stephen63]

Hi EG: Question, why would James write this to Christians?, brethren if any of you do err from the truth and one convert him(bring him back to the truth of God), let him know that he which converted the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death. In this verse, James calls a Christian who is not in God's truth a sinner who is headed for death...that does not sound like a winner to me. None of us are perfect for sure, however this idea that God does not really care if we believe and teach things contrary to what is in scripture, is totally false, God does care and will judge.

NASB19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

You know what I see here? That "brother"s sin aren't covered until he comes back..... if he comes back.

 

[Blain]

Hey EG: You kind of made my point, you just added to scripture in order to make it more comfortable to you by saying that James was not writing about Christ return. Of course James was writing about Christ return and everything else that Jesus taught. My point is that Christians today have become so accustom to changing the word of God to make it conform to what they want that most do not even realize they are doing it.

Let me ask you this, did he add to scripture according to your understanding or God's?

 

[Willie-T]

okay

but I didn't get that impression when I read your post

but yes, we should be ok with changing our minds about things

Actually, that is EXACTLY what the command to "repent" means. We should be open to changing our thinking about what we might be wrong in.... but NOT open to declaring to everyone that WE are now right, and everyone else, wrong.

 

[Stephen63]

Actually, that is EXACTLY what the command to "repent" means. We should be open to changing our thinking about what we might be wrong in.... but NOT open to declaring to everyone that WE are now right, and everyone else, wrong.

Uumm, no it's not.

Like anything else on here, full investigation into something will reveal that only enough research is done to get their desired result..... not the truth.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3340: μετανοέω

μετανοέω, μετάνω; future μετανοήσω; 1 aorist μετενόησα; from (Antiphon), Xenophon down; the Sept. several times for נִחַם; to change one's mind, i. e. to repent(to feel sorry that one has done this or that, Jonah 3:9), of having offended someone, Luke 17:3f; with ἐπίτίνι added (the dative of the wrong, Hebrew עַל, Amos 7:3; Joel 2:13; Jonah 3:10; Jonah 4:2), of (on account of) something (so Latinme paenitet alicujus rei), 2 Corinthians 12:21; used especially of those who, conscious of their sins and with manifest tokens of sorrow, are intent; on obtaining God's pardon; to repent (Latinpaenitentiam agere): μετανοῶἐνσάκκῳκαίσποδῷ, clothed in sackcloth and besprinkled with ashes, Matthew 11:21; Luke 10:13. to change one's mind for the better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins: Matthew 3:2; Matthew 4:17; Mark 1:15 (cf. Matthew 3:6ἐξομολογούμενοιτάςἁμαρτίαςαὐτῶν; Matthew 3:8 and Luke 3:8καρπούςἀξίουςτῆςμετανοίας, i. e. conduct worthy of a heart changed and abhorring sin); (Matthew 11:20; Mark 6:12); Luke 13:3, 5; Luke 15:7, 10; Luke 16:30; Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 17:30; Revelation 2:5, 16; Revelation 3:3, 19; on the phrase μετανοεῖνεἰςτόκήρυγματίνος, Matthew 12:41 and Luke 11:32, see εἰς, B. II. 2 d.; (Winer's Grammar, 397 (371)). Since τόμετανοεῖν expresses mental direction, the termini from which and to which may be specified: ἀπότῆςκακίας, to withdraw or turn one's soul from, etc. (cf. Winers Grammar, 622 (577); especially Buttmann, 322 (277)), Acts 8:22; ἐκτίνος, Revelation 2:21; Revelation 9:20; Revelation 16:11 (see ἐκ, I. 6; (cf. Buttmann, 327 (281), and Winer's Grammar, as above)); μετανοεῖνκαίἐπιστρέφεινἐπίτόνΘεόν, Acts 26:20; followed by an infinitive indicating purpose (Winer's Grammar, 318 (298)), Revelation 16:9. (Synonym: see μεταμέλομαι.)

You'd think by now they would accept the truth & state it properly, but nooo, they have to continue to tell the lie.

You might say, "but Stephen, they aren't telling lies, they're just telling it as they see it".

I assure you that after telling them several times & they don't change their views, there's something majorly wrong.
Titus 3:10
New International Version
Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.
New Living Translation
If people are causing divisions among you, give a first and second warning. After that, have nothing more to do with them.

English Standard Version
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,
Berean Study Bible
Reject a divisive man after a first and second admonition,

Berean Literal Bible
Reject a factious man after one and a second admonition,

New American Standard Bible
Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,

That means don't believe anything they say as well.

 

[Grace777x70]

Repent means "to change the mind". It is formed by 2 words "meta" and noeo "mind" which means to change the mind.

3210. [FONT="Galatia Sil" !important]μετανοέω[/FONT] [FONT="Gentium" !important]metanoeō[/FONT] verb

To repent, change one’s mind, be converted.

The verb [FONT="Gentium" !important]metanoeō[/FONT] is from [FONT="Gentium" !important]meta[/FONT] (3196), “change” (in compound words), and [FONT="Gentium" !important]noeō[/FONT] (3401), “to exercise the mind.” In classical Greek it first meant “to perceive afterwards,” as in the opposite of [FONT="Gentium" !important]pronoeō[/FONT] (4165), “to consider in advance” (Liddell-Scott). Eventually it came to mean “change one’s mind or purpose,” and this usage was carried into the Septuagint.

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Lambda-Omicron.

Some commentaries and our religious teachings may "add" our own perceptions to this and what this means but the Greek meaning is without a doubt - " to change the mind".

 

[Grace777x70]

There are "fruits of repentance" which come after we have already repented and believed the gospel message of Christ's finished work on the cross.

These fruits are not the repentance itself but a product of His life manifesting in and through us because we have repented to now believe on His work for us.

And Yes - this includes how we think about sinning including malice, deceit and the slandering of others in the body of Christ as well as living the homosexual lifestyle. These are all doing the same things and are works of the flesh - just being manifested in a different way.

He bears His fruit in and through us - the branches. He is the Vine - we are the branches - without Him we can do nothing.

This is why Jesus said "Repent and believe in the gospel". Change the way you are thinking and believe in My way of salvation and life and not rely on your own religious good works. Jesus was speaking to the law-keeping, good moral living Jews at the time.

 

[Willie-T]

As I have said before, Steve, you are claiming that John the Baptist and Jesus were calling the devout Jews who had come to Jerusalem for the express purpose of atoning for their sins through animal sacrifice were not really sorry about those sins, at all.