Hi Pottersclay: Actually I grieve over those who believe and teach a pre-trib rapture almost as much as the grief I feel over those who will not accept Jesus Christ as Savior. The message of the pre-trib rapture has the potential to cause millions to miss God and end up in the lake of fire...that is something to grieve over if you care about people. Think, the second half of the gospel message is the return of Christ to gather the church, why wouldn't Satan strive to mess it up for many people? This deception by Satan is so obvious it would be laughable if it were not so horrible. The ridiculous part is all these supposed great Christian bible teachers that are missing what any intelligent twelve year old can see. Think, if a Christian is being deceived that big, what kind of relationship do they really have with God??
WINNERS & LOSERS
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Some say it's only a changing of the mind because:
Go to the Lexicons..... no commentary needed.
Let's also condemn commentaries while we're at it..... after all, we're right, & all those dedicated, educated people are wrong because they don't agree with us.
Plus, those people can't argue back because they're dead.
- They're not sorry for their sins
- They don't regret sinning against God
Go to the Lexicons..... no commentary needed.
Let's also condemn commentaries while we're at it..... after all, we're right, & all those dedicated, educated people are wrong because they don't agree with us.
Plus, those people can't argue back because they're dead.
Hi Angela: In your closing statement you said, we need to OBEY Jesus, however the direction of your message is that we do not need to obey Jesus in things that we personally believe to be inconsequential. Does that make sense to you? We need to obey Jesus about everything that it is in our power to understand. What we have in the church today is not a misunderstanding of certain things Jesus gave us to obey, we have open rebellion, an attitude that says, I will obey that teaching from Jesus but I will not obey that other teaching from Jesus. This is serious, not frivolous, and it needs to be addressed. If this attitude of rebellion against those teachings in the NT that we do not like, were not so prevalent, we would not even be having most of these arguments. There is this attitude, that as long as we believe we are saved by faith in Christ we don't really need to bother with the rest. There are homosexual churches that believe they are saved by faith in Christ, what are they doing wrong? They are not walking in God's truth, walking in all of God's truth to the best of our ability is extremely important.
So in what way does eschatology affect how you walk with God? I am amil, but if for some reason I am wrong, (and I may well be!) how does that affect my relationship with Christ?
If I am obeying his commands, loving my fellow human beings, walking in righteousness, repenting of my sins, and most of all, loving God, in what earthly way does my view of end times impact the way I follow Jesus.
True, I will admit that pre-trib people tend to be escapist, and look at Scripture through a very narrow lense. But, what if they are helping the poor, as Matthew 25 says. (And they don't tell anyone!) What if they are involved in a street ministry or other mission to bring the gospel to the lost? What if they are prayer warriors, and spend hours interceeding for the lost, persecuted Christians and for revival. In what way would God say, "Begone, I never knew you!"
As I said, the eschatological terms are not even in the Bible! Really, they are just well thought out theories. When I took theology, (and yes, I've told this story before!) one of the professors did a video on the 4 different end times views. He outlined all the verses, the timelines, and how they work. He listed all the scholars that supported the different viewpoints, and their books for reading. And he said - search out, and see what God is telling you! It gave me the freedom to finally declare that I didn't agree with pre-trib, premill end times view, and that I had basically always secretly been partial-preterist and amil. But, if someone proves me wrong, I am ok with that. If someone is thoroughly convinced of a different viewpoint, that is ok too!
End times is simply not going to send anyone to hell!
Which does bring us back to eternal security, doesn't it? God is not going to cast us out for wrong theology! Well, unless that theology is to grab more and more from the poor, with lies and greed, while preaching prosperity. But then, that would be a direct contradiction of Matt 25, as I said in my last post.
And no, I have never claimed that homosexuality is right! We have a man in our church, with some very obvious gay mannerisms, who got saved, left the movement, and has been happily married for 27 year! That is how God deals with the homosexual problem. He saves them, and helps them repent of their sin!
So give me a list, from the bible on how I am not obeying God! I really do want to know!
If I am obeying his commands, loving my fellow human beings, walking in righteousness, repenting of my sins, and most of all, loving God, in what earthly way does my view of end times impact the way I follow Jesus.
True, I will admit that pre-trib people tend to be escapist, and look at Scripture through a very narrow lense. But, what if they are helping the poor, as Matthew 25 says. (And they don't tell anyone!) What if they are involved in a street ministry or other mission to bring the gospel to the lost? What if they are prayer warriors, and spend hours interceeding for the lost, persecuted Christians and for revival. In what way would God say, "Begone, I never knew you!"
As I said, the eschatological terms are not even in the Bible! Really, they are just well thought out theories. When I took theology, (and yes, I've told this story before!) one of the professors did a video on the 4 different end times views. He outlined all the verses, the timelines, and how they work. He listed all the scholars that supported the different viewpoints, and their books for reading. And he said - search out, and see what God is telling you! It gave me the freedom to finally declare that I didn't agree with pre-trib, premill end times view, and that I had basically always secretly been partial-preterist and amil. But, if someone proves me wrong, I am ok with that. If someone is thoroughly convinced of a different viewpoint, that is ok too!
End times is simply not going to send anyone to hell!
Which does bring us back to eternal security, doesn't it? God is not going to cast us out for wrong theology! Well, unless that theology is to grab more and more from the poor, with lies and greed, while preaching prosperity. But then, that would be a direct contradiction of Matt 25, as I said in my last post.
And no, I have never claimed that homosexuality is right! We have a man in our church, with some very obvious gay mannerisms, who got saved, left the movement, and has been happily married for 27 year! That is how God deals with the homosexual problem. He saves them, and helps them repent of their sin!
So give me a list, from the bible on how I am not obeying God! I really do want to know!
[SUP]17 [/SUP]But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And of some have compassion, making a difference:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
[SUP]25 [/SUP]To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 17-25
[SUP]18 [/SUP]How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And of some have compassion, making a difference:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
[SUP]25 [/SUP]To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 17-25
P
Well I must admit I thank you and respect you for your concern. Unfortunately I cannot see the harm in the hope of the rapture. Let's say we got it wrong scriptures tell us of the antichrist and what he will do and where he will do it from. Personally I still would not renounce my Lord and savior nor take the mark so all in all the same situation plays out.
We are not appointed to wrath and I hold firm on that. The great hope that Christ will catch up his church and take her out of harms way is not a satanic teaching but it is one that has been debated for years because the scriptures do suggest the possibility. In my view after weighing the evidence I embrace the rapture doctrine.
We are not appointed to wrath and I hold firm on that. The great hope that Christ will catch up his church and take her out of harms way is not a satanic teaching but it is one that has been debated for years because the scriptures do suggest the possibility. In my view after weighing the evidence I embrace the rapture doctrine.
Hi Angela: I do not disagree with your post, it does not seem that you have much of a problem in what I am trying to address. I came on the net years ago(before that I wrote letters) to warn Christians that the pre-trib rapture was not only false but very dangerous for the generation alive when Christ returns. That was and still is my primary concern. When I am describing folks who know they are teaching something false but refuse to let go of it, I am describing hard line pre-trib folks, not Christians who really do not know but suppose that pre-trib is true because of its popularity. I do not know how the Lord deals with hard line pre-trib folks, however they are leading people away from the true story of Christ return that God has given us in His Word.