What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

[seoulsearch]

What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

Hello Everyone,

I apologize if this is a topic that has already been debated to death. I did a topic search on both "Once Saved, Always Saved" as well as the subject of suicide, but I didn't find the specifics of what I was hoping people could answer.

I grew up in a church that does not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, but several people whom I currently know and highly respect believe in this teaching, and their influence has led me to try to study it as in-depth as possible.

If a person believes that nothing they can do will compromise their salvation, what would keep them from committing suicide, if they came to that point? Would they refrain because God commands us not to kill?

And what about, what I personally call, "The Saul Dilemma"--in the Bible, King Saul opted to commit suicide rather than fall into the hands of his enemies and be subjected to their torture (1 Samuel 31).

If you had the option of killing yourself vs. falling into the hands of your enemies (or, let's say, a long-term, painful, and terminal illness), what would you do?

Am I understanding correctly, or would someone who believes in Once Saved, Always Saved be at peace with the thought of killing themselves, and yet still making it to heaven?

(I'm asking because this is the complete opposite of what I was taught as a child--we were told that suicide was pretty much a guaranteed ticket to hell, although they did say that in the end, only God knows.)

I am very new to the Once Saved, Always Saved teaching, so I apologize if any of my questions seem naive or out of place. However, I have not found a clear answer to these issues in my studies and would appreciate any input you may have.

Thank you, and God bless.

 

[seoulsearch]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

And what about, what I personally call, "The Saul Dilemma"--in the Bible, King Saul opted to commit suicide rather than fall into the hands of his enemies and be subjected to their torture (1 Samuel 31).

If you had the option of killing yourself vs. falling into the hands of your enemies (or, let's say, a long-term, painful, and terminal illness), what would you do?

Am I understanding correctly, or would someone who believes in Once Saved, Always Saved be at peace with the thought of killing themselves, and yet still making it to heaven?

My childhood church believed that if Saul was saved at one point, he lost his salvation through his disobedience to God and eventual suicide.

Am I misunderstanding, but would the Once Saved, Always Saved believers say that if Saul was truly saved, he still went to heaven, even though he "fell on his own sword"?

I know people who contemplate taking their own lives very seriously, and have for a long time.

Theoretically, if they are "true believers" or "truly saved"... their salvation cannot be lost, and they will still go to heaven?

 

[seoulsearch]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

I should also add that I have also met people who have told me that no "true believer" in Christ would ever contemplate suicide, and anyone who does is "not a true Christian."

What conclusions have you drawn about these matters as a result of your own personal studies?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

Well, I can not help you believe once saved always saved because my in-depth study I could not deny all the scriptures against it. But what I can tell you is there is only one sin that will make someone permanently lose salvation and that is blasphemy of the Spirit. All sin is seen the same in the eyes of God but this one sin is given great warning by Jesus.

 

[seoulsearch]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

Well, I can not help you believe once saved always saved because my in-depth study I could not deny all the scriptures against it. But what I can tell you is there is only one sin that will make someone permanently lose salvation and that is blasphemy of the Spirit. All sin is seen the same in the eyes of God but this one sin is given great warning by Jesus.

Thank you for sharing this.

My childhood church taught that this is very reason why suicide would automatically send you to hell--because you were deciding something only God could decide (the time and manner of your death--murder), and therefore elevating yourself in a position above God (blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.)

They also taught that you would also go to hell because there would be no time to confess your sin or ask forgiveness for it, though I have to think that many, many believers have died in circumstances in which there is no time to confess or repent (drunk driving, etc.)

 

[bestbefore1973]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

Hello Everyone,

I apologize if this is a topic that has already been debated to death. I did a topic search on both "Once Saved, Always Saved" as well as the subject of suicide, but I didn't find the specifics of what I was hoping people could answer.

I grew up in a church that does not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, but several people whom I currently know and highly respect believe in this teaching, and their influence has led me to try to study it as in-depth as possible.

If a person believes that nothing they can do will compromise their salvation, what would keep them from committing suicide, if they came to that point? Would they refrain because God commands us not to kill?

And what about, what I personally call, "The Saul Dilemma"--in the Bible, King Saul opted to commit suicide rather than fall into the hands of his enemies and be subjected to their torture (1 Samuel 31).

If you had the option of killing yourself vs. falling into the hands of your enemies (or, let's say, a long-term, painful, and terminal illness), what would you do?

Am I understanding correctly, or would someone who believes in Once Saved, Always Saved be at peace with the thought of killing themselves, and yet still making it to heaven?

(I'm asking because this is the complete opposite of what I was taught as a child--we were told that suicide was pretty much a guaranteed ticket to hell, although they did say that in the end, only God knows.)

I am very new to the Once Saved, Always Saved teaching, so I apologize if any of my questions seem naive or out of place. However, I have not found a clear answer to these issues in my studies and would appreciate any input you may have.

Thank you, and God bless.

I can't think of where the bible says killing yourself is a one way ticket to hell.

It's not a good idea to use other bible verses that have no ultimate connection to answer the subject, that remain vague in context. You'll just end up playing bible ping pong with others who find other vague verses.

This thing takes the power of the spirit, wisdom and decrement. Which won't be backed up by the bible it self, but be Gods spirit speaking through someone.

 

[seoulsearch]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

I can't think of where the bible says killing yourself is a one way ticket to hell.

It's not a good idea to use other bible verses that have no ultimate connection to answer the subject, that remain vague in context. You'll just end up playing bible ping pong with others who find other vague verses.

This thing takes the power of the spirit, wisdom and decrement. Which won't be backed up by the bible it self, but be Gods spirit speaking through someone.

I am definitely trying to avoid the Bible pong, if at all possible.

The reason I'm asking these questions is because there are people I know and deeply love who consider suicide a viable option in this life, and either claim they don't care whether or not they make it to heaven, or think they can get there no matter what choice they make.

My intentions behind this thread are not to debate or try to claim superiority for any particular perspective...

To be completely honest, I'm writing this thread as someone who is broken-hearted for some of the people I know and love, and desperately wishing to give them some sort of wisdom or hope, because they cannot see any for themselves.

 

[BenFTW]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

A suicidal person is not in the right state of mind, so I would hardly believe that their thought process is OSAS doctrine, and therefore they then go ahead with taking their own life. Truth be told, how can suicide lead to hell (if suicide is a sin) if Christ died to pay for all the sins of the world? If someone who believed in Christ died through suicide, that sin has to be taken away by Christ's sacrifice. Otherwise, it puts into question the whole ordeal because Christ died for all sin, for all people.

Now, when I read your title (prior to reading your post) my initial thought was that you figured if someone believes in OSAS they might as well expedite the process and get to Heaven now. Why not, right? Well, the same could be said of people who think that we can fall away from the faith or lose our salvation through sinning.

How so? Well, if you can lose your salvation, in a number of ways (people have speculated) then that means the best option (best case scenario) is to believe in Christ and die as soon as possible. I mean, live on the edge, walk through ghetto neighborhoods, or sign up for war. The quicker you die, the better. Right?

You see, whether you believe in OSAS or that a believer can lose their salvation, in both scenarios death is a release. To the secure it simply means a faster reunion and to the insecure it simply means assurance. However, all of this needs to be put in perspective.

God's grace is sufficient. It, of course, isn't His will for His child to go down that path of mental illness and anguish, yet one can see the mercy in that He saved that person's soul. They lived Hell on earth (why else would they suicide?), and then God who is merciful and kind, would send them to Hell for eternity? It doesn't make sense, not only from the perspective of God's character, but the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus died for all sin, and if suicide is considered a sin, well then there you go. Jesus paid its price, its penalty.

Now, you may be concerned and we go back to your initial question. "What would stop a OSAS believer from committing suicide?" God's intervention, and the love of those around them. Not only that, but the implication of their actions on those that they love. Such things are deterrents to suicide because of the ruin that one leaves behind. Even then, having such deterrents, the person may still follow through (sadly), but keep in mind that the person is not in the right state of mind. It isn't your fault, or God's, but rather it is the fault of the suicidal person's perception of their circumstance.
That perception itself being hopeless, and unforgiving.

Its a touchy subject, but one cannot place a sin above Christ's sacrifice, unless they wish to negate the sufficiency of His blood that was shed for all sin.

 

[BenFTW]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

I am definitely trying to avoid the Bible pong, if at all possible.

The reason I'm asking these questions is because there are people I know and deeply love who consider suicide a viable option in this life, and either claim they don't care whether or not they make it to heaven, or think they can get there no matter what choice they make.

My intentions behind this thread are not to debate or try to claim superiority for any particular perspective...

To be completely honest, I'm writing this thread as someone who is broken-hearted for some of the people I know and love, and desperately wishing to give them some sort of wisdom or hope, because they cannot see any for themselves.

The wisdom and hope you can offer them comes from God. He has a plan for their life, and a purpose. They were not created for nothing, but have a place in the body of Christ. An essential place. Whatever troubles they have, God is greater. He has promises not only in His word but personally to them, and He is faithful to fulfill them. The hope you offer them is purpose, and the wisdom you give them is to seek His will for their life, and for the victory over their circumstance. Why? Because, all things are possible with God.

 

[joaniemarie]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

Hello Everyone,

I apologize if this is a topic that has already been debated to death. I did a topic search on both "Once Saved, Always Saved" as well as the subject of suicide, but I didn't find the specifics of what I was hoping people could answer.

I grew up in a church that does not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, but several people whom I currently know and highly respect believe in this teaching, and their influence has led me to try to study it as in-depth as possible.

If a person believes that nothing they can do will compromise their salvation, what would keep them from committing suicide, if they came to that point? Would they refrain because God commands us not to kill?

And what about, what I personally call, "The Saul Dilemma"--in the Bible, King Saul opted to commit suicide rather than fall into the hands of his enemies and be subjected to their torture (1 Samuel 31).

If you had the option of killing yourself vs. falling into the hands of your enemies (or, let's say, a long-term, painful, and terminal illness), what would you do?

Am I understanding correctly, or would someone who believes in Once Saved, Always Saved be at peace with the thought of killing themselves, and yet still making it to heaven?

(I'm asking because this is the complete opposite of what I was taught as a child--we were told that suicide was pretty much a guaranteed ticket to hell, although they did say that in the end, only God knows.)

I am very new to the Once Saved, Always Saved teaching, so I apologize if any of my questions seem naive or out of place. However, I have not found a clear answer to these issues in my studies and would appreciate any input you may have.

Thank you, and God bless.

Hi Seoul,
The Bible tells us that those who are led by the Spirit of such there is no law. Gal.5:23 Reading Romans tells us that the law is written in our hearts., it's the law of the Spirit it's obedience of faith. Rom.2:15 We believers go by the law of faith Rom.3:27 We are not under the law of Mosses. Christ is the end of the law. The strength/power of sin is the law. 1Cor.15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't understand how some seasoned Christians are always fighting to uphold the law when what we need to teach others to do is uphold the gospel of grace and truth given to us by Jesus. The law can't save us or keep us. The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the sons of God. We are now in the beloved.

We love Him because He first loved us. We don't love Him out of fear but we have been made new and we are daily learning to love Him by His example. Those who are in love and get married GET to kiss and love each other., they don't feel that they HAVE to kiss and love each other., they deeply desire to do those things. It's a blessing to do those things not a burden.

Perfect love casts out fear. His is perfect love for us and it will cast out fear. When we know we are loved we have confidence in Him. We trust Him and follow close to Him. He is the Good Shepherd who gave His life for the sheep. My sheep know My voice and follow Me.

 

[seoulsearch]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

Ben,

Thank you so much for this in-depth and thought-provoking post.

You really hit the nail on the head as well when you mentioned the point about reasoning that if one will be going to heaven no matter what, why not get there as soon as possible?

I have wondered this my whole life, since all I ever hear Christians talk about is how wonderful and perfect everything will be when we "get to be with Jesus."

I agree with that, of course, but I always figured, then why not try to get there as soon as absolutely possible? It has always seemed to me that the most glorious thing any Christian has to look forward to... is death. I say that in a mildly sarcastic way, because the "just wait 'til we're with Jesus" answer seemed to be given as a cookie-cutter solution to any problem someone presented when I went to Christian schools.

Thank you so much for your heartfelt and sensible post. I am going to read it several times in order to fully grasp what you were kind enough to take the time to write. God bless.

 

[Angela53510]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

I have a "long painful and terminal illness" and I believe in eternal security! What keeps me from committing suicide?

Let's see! God, my family, music, love, sunsets, my lake and mountains, flowers, kittens, grandchildren, friends, eating, studying Greek, traveling, diamonds, helping others, sharing the gospel, and a thousand other things!

Your whole hypothesis is wrong. What makes you think because someone is sick, or in pain immediately makes them want to die? God put a love of life in every person. When they lose that love of life, that is called depression, which is a mental illness. It can be treated with love, support, medication, therapy and prayer.

It is true most people get depressed when they are first diagnosed with a serious and life threatening illness. But it doesn't want to make them want to die! In fact, the sicker I get, the more I want to live!

So you have created this absurd scenario where people want to die because they know they are going to heaven? Far from it! I know hundreds of people with RA- both real life and in line. No one is planning to kill themselves. People seek to get better and live.

My cousin's wife got breast cancer and it metastasized. They went everywhere to get treatment, even Mexico when they exhausted conventional treatments. When the end grew near, she did not want to die, she wanted to live, to see her grandchildren grow up!

There was a man in my Seminary who got ALS. He never got depressed, but continued to work as an evangelist, which was his calling. As his body broke down, he continued to witness to the work of Christ in his life in Word and person. On his death bed, he led 3 of his caregivers to the Lord!

I could tell you stories like this forever! So perhaps, since your basic premise is totally wrong, perhaps losing your salvation is also wrong? Because a person who is dying needs love, support, and yes, pain control. I worked in long term care as a chaplain, and I never met one person who was actively dying, on palliative care, who wanted to end it sooner.

And I have met people who were physically healthy, but depressed and wanted to die. There is a lot of help for these people. But if they really were saved, and killed themselves, I have no doubt that God is big enough to forgive them even that sin! There is no place in the Bible where it says suicide is the only sin that can't be forgiven. That is just made up by people like your church you grew up in, who erroneously believed you can lose your salvation!

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

Thank you for sharing this.

My childhood church taught that this is very reason why suicide would automatically send you to hell--because you were deciding something only God could decide (the time and manner of your death--murder), and therefore elevating yourself in a position above God (blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.)

They also taught that you would also go to hell because there would be no time to confess your sin or ask forgiveness for it, though I have to think that many, many believers have died in circumstances in which there is no time to confess or repent (drunk driving, etc.)

And I do not see the sin of suicide to be the same as calling the Spirit of God evil.
Also, God judges the heart so if a believer was to instantly die God knows the heart of the believer he knows if the person was truly seeking God or not. This is why even the drunk could be in their heart trying to follow God and constantly at battle within to give God the sin but all we see is a drunk. God knows the heart of and he knows his sheep.

 

[seoulsearch]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

Joanie,

Thank you for your post. I will be reading people's posts here several times over in order to fully absorb the thoughts and wisdom behind what each of you have to share.

I may not be able to answer each post individually but please know that I greatly appreciate that you would care enough to take the time to answer my questions.

God bless, and thank you so much.

 

[seoulsearch]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

Your whole hypothesis is wrong. What makes you think because someone is sick, or in pain immediately makes them want to die?

Because I am watching someone who is in such a situation threaten suicide on a daily basis, and I am at a point where I'm so torn for them that I can't keep food down, and finally decided to talk about it here, hoping that others have similar experiences to share that I can learn from.

I most certainly agree that suicide is not an automatic conclusion for everyone.

But it happens to be so for the people I'm thinking of as I write this thread.

I always appreciate your wisdom and thoughts, Angela. I hope the people I am thinking of can come to a similar conclusion as you, and find that there are other choices out there, as well as reasons to make them.

 

[joaniemarie]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

We are also told to look to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith. His love is what we put our faith in. Not our love for Him but His love for us. We are human and in need of a Savior to lead and guide us. We have the Holy Spirit to teach and lead us into all truth. As we mature we learn more and more how to walk by faith. But it's not by looking at our performance. It's looking at His.

We are told in the Bible to "worry for nothing" To trust in the Lord with all our hearts., leaning not unto our own understanding.., in all our ways in life we acknowledge Him and then He WILL direct our paths. So we don't worry about cancer or dying a horrible death. We don't think that mere human way anymore. We don't try to out wit life and the problems that come. We are to trust Him to do that for us. Often times those things never happen and many spend their lives fearing every possible possibility., when God's Word tells us to not fear. We need to be in agreement with Him and His Word.

Our minds have to be on trusting Him and He will lead us through and out of the issues that come in life. He will get us through. Just like He promises in His Word. We can 100% trust Him to do what He says.

 

[trofimus]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

Hello Everyone,

I apologize if this is a topic that has already been debated to death. I did a topic search on both "Once Saved, Always Saved" as well as the subject of suicide, but I didn't find the specifics of what I was hoping people could answer.

I grew up in a church that does not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, but several people whom I currently know and highly respect believe in this teaching, and their influence has led me to try to study it as in-depth as possible.

If a person believes that nothing they can do will compromise their salvation, what would keep them from committing suicide, if they came to that point? Would they refrain because God commands us not to kill?

And what about, what I personally call, "The Saul Dilemma"--in the Bible, King Saul opted to commit suicide rather than fall into the hands of his enemies and be subjected to their torture (1 Samuel 31).

If you had the option of killing yourself vs. falling into the hands of your enemies (or, let's say, a long-term, painful, and terminal illness), what would you do?

Am I understanding correctly, or would someone who believes in Once Saved, Always Saved be at peace with the thought of killing themselves, and yet still making it to heaven?

(I'm asking because this is the complete opposite of what I was taught as a child--we were told that suicide was pretty much a guaranteed ticket to hell, although they did say that in the end, only God knows.)

I am very new to the Once Saved, Always Saved teaching, so I apologize if any of my questions seem naive or out of place. However, I have not found a clear answer to these issues in my studies and would appreciate any input you may have.

Thank you, and God bless.

I think you do not understand the idea.

OSA does not say that every sinner is saved just because he believed in some point of his life.

OSA is saying that those who leave the faith were never saved, even though they might thought they have faith, in some point.
OSA is also saying that those who are elected and really saved, will never leave the faith.


To your question - suicide is a sin like other "heavy" sins like murder, rape, love for money etc. God sees the heart of man and knows if he had the real faith and just failed in this area (depressed, drunk, I do not know) or if he was never a real believer and therefore God will say "I have never known you".

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

suicide is a condition acted in usual depression. It would be the same as seeing lifelong Christians as they grow old their minds may grow weak and diseased making them do certain things as elderly people that may not be Christian but only because their mind is diseased or fading. So what is left is the carnal mind. God would not hold disease or aging mind against these Christians. Same as someone dealing with a mental illness of depression.

Now suicide out of fear is an act of rebellion to deny your trust in Christ. That may very well be a good argument as that's a big final act of rebellion against faith in God. I dont know though Im glad I am not the judge.

 

[joaniemarie]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

Joanie,

Thank you for your post. I will be reading people's posts here several times over in order to fully absorb the thoughts and wisdom behind what each of you have to share.

I may not be able to answer each post individually but please know that I greatly appreciate that you would care enough to take the time to answer my questions.

God bless, and thank you so much.

I'm sorry seoul, I didn't see the other posts and your other responses till after I posted. It is so hard to see our loved ones suffer. My dear friend Barbara has stage 4 lung cancer. We are praying for healing. In the mean time something different happens each day. Some new Dr. to go see., a new appointment., A new challenge to over come like walking that is becoming impossible so we have to help Barbara transfer from wheelchair to chair to car to out of car... etc...

Yes, going through the process with our friends is not easy and we feel such sympathy and pity and love for them. How much more Jesus loves them! We can go along side and help and make the load less heavy just by our being there. It's so true when the Bible talks about carrying one another's burdens. wow that is so true. I trust Jesus because He is Barbara's Good Shepherd too. And each day I'm praying because Barbara is having a hard time praying now. Praying for healing and strength to go another day.

Jesus has bore our pain and shame and sickness. As our loved ones go through the process we can walk with them too. Will be praying for you too seoul.

 

[seoulsearch]

Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?

I'm sorry seoul, I didn't see the other posts and your other responses till after I posted. It is so hard to see our loved ones suffer. My dear friend Barbara has stage 4 lung cancer. We are praying for healing. In the mean time something different happens each day. Some new Dr. to go see., a new appointment., A new challenge to over come like walking that is becoming impossible so we have to help Barbara transfer from wheelchair to chair to car to out of car... etc...

Yes, going through the process with our friends is not easy and we feel such sympathy and pity and love for them. How much more Jesus loves them! We can go along side and help and make the load less heavy just by our being there. It's so true when the Bible talks about carrying one another's burdens. wow that is so true. I trust Jesus because He is Barbara's Good Shepherd too. And each day I'm praying because Barbara is having a hard time praying now. Praying for healing and strength to go another day.

Jesus has bore our pain and shame and sickness. As our loved ones go through the process we can walk with them too. Will be praying for you too seoul.

Joanie,

Thank you so much for this post.

It touched my heart very deeply. I am so sorry for your friend Barbara. I will be praying for her, too.

I am thankful she has you in her life to care for her and thank you so very much.

Your post made me tear up. <3 God bless you for being willing to bear the burdens of others.