I wasn't sure, thanks for clearing that up, brother. I'm not saying he was lying, I just wonder if God would show us another persons sin, when the Holy Spirit assent to convict of sin, righteousness and judgement. With Jesus showing us that the Law isa heart issue as well as physical actions, we could just about call any guy out on adultery or fornication. But I do believe the gifts are for the ministry today. God Bless.
Spiritual Warfare and Casting Demons out of Cities
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I'm not seeing an conflict between the Holy Spirit showing someone another man's sin and the Spirit convicting the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. The two ideas seem to dovetail together in my mind. An unbeliever who walks into a church meeting, if all prophesy, may hear the secrets of his heart made manifest according to I Corinthians 14. Paul, full of the Holy Ghost, told Elymas about his sinful state. Jesus knew about the five husbands of the woman at the well, and the one she had who wasn't her husband.
In that account, as I recall, John Wimber told the man the name of the woman the man was committing adultery with.
I never read the Perreti novels. In them, is the only reason people sin because of demons, and if you get rid of the demons, you get rid of the sin? Did the people get rid of the demons by rebuking them out of cities or something like that?
I am not opposed to casting out demons. I just see Jesus and the apostles casting them out of individuals, individuals who had them when the demons were manifesting in some way.
In that account, as I recall, John Wimber told the man the name of the woman the man was committing adultery with.
I never read the Perreti novels. In them, is the only reason people sin because of demons, and if you get rid of the demons, you get rid of the sin? Did the people get rid of the demons by rebuking them out of cities or something like that?
I am not opposed to casting out demons. I just see Jesus and the apostles casting them out of individuals, individuals who had them when the demons were manifesting in some way.
This thread has a lot of misinformation in it, so it is not surprising that most people think it's wacky.
The passage in Daniel is one of the key passages informing the practice. Those who intercede for their cities looked at that verse and others, and asked the Lord about them. His response, as revealed through many people over many years, is that sin leaves a spiritual stain. Certain sins defile or pollute the land (see Leviticus 18:25-28, Numbers 35:34, and Jeremiah 3:1-10). The point is to ask the Lord if there is anything that is a hindrance to the gospel which can be removed, cleansed, or repented of. In some cases the Lord reveals sins which occurred in a place in the past, and empowers people to confess these sins and repent "by proxy".
While this is not an overt teaching of Scripture, and therefore many will not accept it, some people have found it to have real-world impacts. If your ministry involves praying for your city or region, witnessing, or street ministry, it may be worthwhile investigating it further... with an open mind and a recognition that while the Lord will not violate what is written in Scripture, He also is not restricted to doing only the things which are clearly written there.
The passage in Daniel is one of the key passages informing the practice. Those who intercede for their cities looked at that verse and others, and asked the Lord about them. His response, as revealed through many people over many years, is that sin leaves a spiritual stain. Certain sins defile or pollute the land (see Leviticus 18:25-28, Numbers 35:34, and Jeremiah 3:1-10). The point is to ask the Lord if there is anything that is a hindrance to the gospel which can be removed, cleansed, or repented of. In some cases the Lord reveals sins which occurred in a place in the past, and empowers people to confess these sins and repent "by proxy".
While this is not an overt teaching of Scripture, and therefore many will not accept it, some people have found it to have real-world impacts. If your ministry involves praying for your city or region, witnessing, or street ministry, it may be worthwhile investigating it further... with an open mind and a recognition that while the Lord will not violate what is written in Scripture, He also is not restricted to doing only the things which are clearly written there.
***This short article may give you insight into Spiritual Warfare and Principalities...
[h=3]Praying Down Powers and Principalities — Charisma Magazine[/h]
[h=3]Praying Down Powers and Principalities — Charisma Magazine[/h]
I stopped worrying about demons a long time ago. Probably about the time someone told me Frank Perriti's books were so great and true!
I started relying on God for my prayers for the lost, for intercession, for healing and everything else. And God has blessed me, in that it helped me get to know him so much better. Which is a result of prayer. I don't know if you would get to know Satan better, by dealing with demons, but it is a road I try not to go down!
I feel sorry for anyone who thinks demons are behind everything, and I do agree that while as believers, we are to be ready in season and out, that does not mean fruitlessly engaging the demonic world, when most of the evil in people is because of their own sin.
I started relying on God for my prayers for the lost, for intercession, for healing and everything else. And God has blessed me, in that it helped me get to know him so much better. Which is a result of prayer. I don't know if you would get to know Satan better, by dealing with demons, but it is a road I try not to go down!
I feel sorry for anyone who thinks demons are behind everything, and I do agree that while as believers, we are to be ready in season and out, that does not mean fruitlessly engaging the demonic world, when most of the evil in people is because of their own sin.
I believe we are at war everyday and its a war fought over our soul. We are born with the curse of the fallen human nature. Sin is part of us and Satin and his fallen angels can never force us to sin. The only thing satin and his army can do is lie, tempt, and distract us away from God and into sin. But we also know God can allow satin to tempt us to build discipline and obedience. Just as satin cant control us but only lie, tempt, and distract. God will not control you either but only tell you truth, lead you in truth, help you as you surrender to him.
This is why its a spiritual war in us and around us. Your mind is always at battle between good and evil.
This is why its a spiritual war in us and around us. Your mind is always at battle between good and evil.
Overall, that was a very sensible article. It's a more diplomatic approach to attacking the same problem I did in the OP. My approach is more confronting and direct. Maybe his approach is more likely to get published in Charisma. Lee Grady could probably get away with a very direct editorial on a topic like this. The first page addresses the problem of people talking to the principalities and powers rather than praying.
I did find some of his explanations as a bit speculative, at least as far as the Bible is concerned, with regard to angels and demons effect world leaders. I don't see how we can squeeze all that from that one passage in Daniel. It seemed to be presented as his opinion though, and things may work that way.
One statement I did find cringe-worthy. "[FONT="]On specific occasions the Spirit may lead someone to speak directly in intercession to a demonic principality." [/FONT] Why call rebuking or addressing a principality 'intercession'? In Indonesia, I heard people talk about 'spiritual warfare prayer' and then they'd talk to demons. Christians should 'pray' to demons. I also find the practice of saying, "Let's pray" and spending most of the time talking to demons to be disturbing.
I had a friend who went to church with Mike Bickle back in the early 1990's. He told me that one of the people had a vision about cowboys shooting down stars or something along those lines. They were concerned with the way the so-called 'spiritual warfare' was going.
Jesus rebuked demons that manifested in and/or through individuals. He used scripture to repel Satan's temptations when he came to Him in the wilderness. We don't see Jesus or the apostles in the Bible rebuking all the spirits of a certain kind over a city. Some of the so-called 'spiritual warfare' stuff has gotten really far from Biblical teaching, IMO.
One analogy I like to use is a truck that runs over a nail and gets a flat tire. Let's suppose you pull the nail out of the tire. Can you drive down the road? No. The tire needs to be repaired or replaced and filled with air. Casting a demon out of someone might be a bit like pulling a nail out of a tire. It doesn't fix the person. It may just get a problem out of a way. If someone is shot with an arrow, you can pull the arrow out, but that doesn't make him instantly healed. He needs to be healed to be well.
I think he does a good job of applying intercessory prayer to the II Corinthians 10 section on casting down imaginations. I believe one of the main ways Paul and his co-workers did this was by preaching and teaching the word of God. As they did so, they cast down imaginations and God rescued people from the enemies side. The territory of the Gospel expanded as the truth was taught and more souls were won.
I did find some of his explanations as a bit speculative, at least as far as the Bible is concerned, with regard to angels and demons effect world leaders. I don't see how we can squeeze all that from that one passage in Daniel. It seemed to be presented as his opinion though, and things may work that way.
One statement I did find cringe-worthy. "[FONT="]On specific occasions the Spirit may lead someone to speak directly in intercession to a demonic principality." [/FONT] Why call rebuking or addressing a principality 'intercession'? In Indonesia, I heard people talk about 'spiritual warfare prayer' and then they'd talk to demons. Christians should 'pray' to demons. I also find the practice of saying, "Let's pray" and spending most of the time talking to demons to be disturbing.
I had a friend who went to church with Mike Bickle back in the early 1990's. He told me that one of the people had a vision about cowboys shooting down stars or something along those lines. They were concerned with the way the so-called 'spiritual warfare' was going.
Jesus rebuked demons that manifested in and/or through individuals. He used scripture to repel Satan's temptations when he came to Him in the wilderness. We don't see Jesus or the apostles in the Bible rebuking all the spirits of a certain kind over a city. Some of the so-called 'spiritual warfare' stuff has gotten really far from Biblical teaching, IMO.
One analogy I like to use is a truck that runs over a nail and gets a flat tire. Let's suppose you pull the nail out of the tire. Can you drive down the road? No. The tire needs to be repaired or replaced and filled with air. Casting a demon out of someone might be a bit like pulling a nail out of a tire. It doesn't fix the person. It may just get a problem out of a way. If someone is shot with an arrow, you can pull the arrow out, but that doesn't make him instantly healed. He needs to be healed to be well.
I think he does a good job of applying intercessory prayer to the II Corinthians 10 section on casting down imaginations. I believe one of the main ways Paul and his co-workers did this was by preaching and teaching the word of God. As they did so, they cast down imaginations and God rescued people from the enemies side. The territory of the Gospel expanded as the truth was taught and more souls were won.
D
Does it show? lol
Actually our old church is right smack in the middle of the homosexual community in Philly. (The church is from the 1800's.) The homosexual community was alive and well in the 1980s, but smaller. About a block from where I worked was a corner bookstore -- a LBG bookstore. (Only had three letters back then.) So, a group of believers from that church would go to that corner and pray against that bookstore. One to two years later, the bookstore closed.
Coincidence? Maybe. Bookstores don't do well in Philly. (There were two others back then -- a fantastic used bookstore and Borders. Now there are none.)
One thing else changed since back then -- the homosexual community has doubled in size. The church neither embraces them as an alternative lifestyle nor shuns them. It's begrudgingly accepted in the community, because that's who gives meals to people dying of AIDS, and they spend some time with the person each day too. Something the homosexual community has trouble doing, because then they come face-to-face with how they are likely to end too.
I don't really believe in "spirits of." I do believe people are naturally evil though, and only God can change us to supernaturally good -- his good in us.
Actually our old church is right smack in the middle of the homosexual community in Philly. (The church is from the 1800's.) The homosexual community was alive and well in the 1980s, but smaller. About a block from where I worked was a corner bookstore -- a LBG bookstore. (Only had three letters back then.) So, a group of believers from that church would go to that corner and pray against that bookstore. One to two years later, the bookstore closed.
Coincidence? Maybe. Bookstores don't do well in Philly. (There were two others back then -- a fantastic used bookstore and Borders. Now there are none.)
One thing else changed since back then -- the homosexual community has doubled in size. The church neither embraces them as an alternative lifestyle nor shuns them. It's begrudgingly accepted in the community, because that's who gives meals to people dying of AIDS, and they spend some time with the person each day too. Something the homosexual community has trouble doing, because then they come face-to-face with how they are likely to end too.
I don't really believe in "spirits of." I do believe people are naturally evil though, and only God can change us to supernaturally good -- his good in us.
Ephesians 6:10-13New International Version (NIV)
The Armor of God
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
Like it or not we must remain awake to the spiritual war
The Armor of God
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
Like it or not we must remain awake to the spiritual war
I'm with you, I haven't read them either, I don't reads novels. I understand what you're saying. Where I've been jaded on all the miracle gift is I was part of so called full gospel church. They believed that the gift were for evangelism, that sign, wonders and miracles of healing would win people to the Gospel. Then I noticed that those were to follow, not precede to Gospel message. One day I was asked to help record a meeting of pastors that was going to be on healing. It bummed me out, when the pastor said, keep praying for people until someone says they have been or are healed, then start pushing it because peoples faith is stirred up. How they needed to preach to the people how their faith will heal them, so you need to get their faith stirred up, it just turned me off to all of it. I seen the fraud in it, this was in a time that I fully believed T. L. Osborns book on healing. I also read all the E. W. Kenyon books that opened my eyes to the false teaching that they believed. The born again Jesus was the eye opener for me. Now I'm back to the gifts in a more conservative way.
Back to Demons, they can influence one to sin, but they are not the cause of sin. Ephesians 2:2-3 "And you were dead the trespasses and sins2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
Demons don't make you sin or will you stop sinning if you were possessed by a demon, because we are sinners by nature, children of wrath. Remember the story about the demon possessed man that later was possessed by seven more powerful then the first? That man wasn't saved the demon being cast out didn't save him, he needed to repent.
Back to Demons, they can influence one to sin, but they are not the cause of sin. Ephesians 2:2-3 "And you were dead the trespasses and sins2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
Demons don't make you sin or will you stop sinning if you were possessed by a demon, because we are sinners by nature, children of wrath. Remember the story about the demon possessed man that later was possessed by seven more powerful then the first? That man wasn't saved the demon being cast out didn't save him, he needed to repent.
Amen!!! One time a guy said something that stuck with me. There were some guys talking about how the devil was aways after them and this guy said quit fellowshipping with him. It seem as if you try dealing with them, they will guide you down the path that doesn't led to fellowship with the Lord.
I did a study on the armor of God and it amazed me, that it talking about put on the fullness of God. The shield of faith, Genesis 15:1 and many other Scriptures, the shield the Father. The breast plate, helmet of salvation, belt, Jesus. Isaiah 59:17, 11:5, fiery darts are deceitful words Psalms 120:3-4, shoes Isaiah 52:7.
Genesis 15:1 "After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.”
Isaiah 59:17 "He put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation on his head; he put on garments of vengeance for clothing, and wrapped himself in zeal as a cloak."
Isaiah 11:5 "Righteousness shall be the belt of his waist, and faithfulness the belt of his loins."
Psalms 120:3-4 "What shall be given to you, and what more shall be done to you, you deceitful tongue? A warrior's sharp arrows, with glowing coals of the broom tree!"
Isaiah 52:7 "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news, who publishes peace, who brings good news of happiness, who publishes salvation, who says to Zion, “Your God reigns.”
I did a study on the armor of God and it amazed me, that it talking about put on the fullness of God. The shield of faith, Genesis 15:1 and many other Scriptures, the shield the Father. The breast plate, helmet of salvation, belt, Jesus. Isaiah 59:17, 11:5, fiery darts are deceitful words Psalms 120:3-4, shoes Isaiah 52:7.
Genesis 15:1 "After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.”
Isaiah 59:17 "He put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation on his head; he put on garments of vengeance for clothing, and wrapped himself in zeal as a cloak."
Isaiah 11:5 "Righteousness shall be the belt of his waist, and faithfulness the belt of his loins."
Psalms 120:3-4 "What shall be given to you, and what more shall be done to you, you deceitful tongue? A warrior's sharp arrows, with glowing coals of the broom tree!"
Isaiah 52:7 "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news, who publishes peace, who brings good news of happiness, who publishes salvation, who says to Zion, “Your God reigns.”
What exactly do you believe the gifts of the discerning of spirits, word of knowledge and word of wisdom are?
Peter operated in these gifts when he called out Ananias and Sapphira...Paul did as well with the Damsel of divination....
In fact, if you really want to stir it up Jesus did as well...especially with the woman at the well...
The Ministry of the Holy Spirit is much more broad than John 16.8, one need sot look at the Rest of John 16, 15 and 14 as well to gain understanding in his ministry as a whole
Peter operated in these gifts when he called out Ananias and Sapphira...Paul did as well with the Damsel of divination....
In fact, if you really want to stir it up Jesus did as well...especially with the woman at the well...
The Ministry of the Holy Spirit is much more broad than John 16.8, one need sot look at the Rest of John 16, 15 and 14 as well to gain understanding in his ministry as a whole
Yes, because Jennifer LeClaire and Her crew at Charisma are so honest and upstanding....Charisma Magazine is nothing but the tabloids of the Pentecostal movement...
Jennifer LeClarie and Ryan Le Strange are false prophets that came out of the Bethel Church movement under Bill Johnson....and their personal False Prophet mentor Kris Vallotton...These wolves are aligned with the New Apostolic Reformation movement and rub shoulders wiht the likes of Mike Bickle and the KC prophets out of IHOP in KCMO....
LeClaire thinks everything that happens to Christians is due to witchcraft and satanic attacks....she is nothing but a hireling who is making millions on her books, and Prophet school....and confuse the works of the flesh with Demons lording and causing people to do things....She routinely tells people they must get cleaned up from the SIN demons and witches cast on Christians every 3 months...Which is saying the demons, witches and spirits have more power than the finished work of Jesus Christ..
Le Claire is also the one who "prophetically" is told by the Holy Spirit that the spirits of Jezebel, Saul, Ahab and other OT evil doer spirits run rampant in the church...She also claims that Apostles and Prophets have more anointing than local pastors and that Apostles and Prophets have the right to walk into any church and correct the spiritual imbalances they see...
She cry's for revival and predicts the future[her confirmation record of prophetic words is pretty bleak] yet she never preaches or teaches the word of God, she just blurts out a "prophetic word" and writes a book about and charges, outlandish speaker fees to come and teach oyu how to do what she does...
She is the largest propagator of Christian witchcraft in the prophetic deliverance ministry today....
She also claims that only her and those like her have the special anointing to combat/cast out/ bind demons, witches, etc...yet Jesus gave that same anointing and authority to 82 people in his day....
Le Claire is just another hireling Jesus warned us about and so is everyone over at Charisma Comic-Con...
Jennifer LeClarie and Ryan Le Strange are false prophets that came out of the Bethel Church movement under Bill Johnson....and their personal False Prophet mentor Kris Vallotton...These wolves are aligned with the New Apostolic Reformation movement and rub shoulders wiht the likes of Mike Bickle and the KC prophets out of IHOP in KCMO....
LeClaire thinks everything that happens to Christians is due to witchcraft and satanic attacks....she is nothing but a hireling who is making millions on her books, and Prophet school....and confuse the works of the flesh with Demons lording and causing people to do things....She routinely tells people they must get cleaned up from the SIN demons and witches cast on Christians every 3 months...Which is saying the demons, witches and spirits have more power than the finished work of Jesus Christ..
Le Claire is also the one who "prophetically" is told by the Holy Spirit that the spirits of Jezebel, Saul, Ahab and other OT evil doer spirits run rampant in the church...She also claims that Apostles and Prophets have more anointing than local pastors and that Apostles and Prophets have the right to walk into any church and correct the spiritual imbalances they see...
She cry's for revival and predicts the future[her confirmation record of prophetic words is pretty bleak] yet she never preaches or teaches the word of God, she just blurts out a "prophetic word" and writes a book about and charges, outlandish speaker fees to come and teach oyu how to do what she does...
She is the largest propagator of Christian witchcraft in the prophetic deliverance ministry today....
She also claims that only her and those like her have the special anointing to combat/cast out/ bind demons, witches, etc...yet Jesus gave that same anointing and authority to 82 people in his day....
Le Claire is just another hireling Jesus warned us about and so is everyone over at Charisma Comic-Con...
"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! "But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' read more.
I know he did, Jesus is Almighty God, He know the end from the beginning. The apostles performed great signs and wonders as well, where Peter's shadow healed people, does that mean the Holy Spirit doe the same today, no, can He yes. The Church in the 1st century relied 98% on the Holy Spirit and 2% on man, drawing lots to pick a replacement for Judas. Today the Church works on 2% Holy Spirit and 98% man. I've had atlas 5 so-called words of knowledge told to me, not one of them has come true. I thought I operated in that gift and they never came to pass, except one here recently. A pastor could speak so he did a video saying how he was battling with spiritual warfare, I felt lead to tell him something I did and two weeks later he checked himself into a rehab. So I know it can happen but it's few and far between.
I see a lot of what is blamed in the Spirit as blasphemy, like blowing on people and they fall down, sure Jesus breathed on the disciples, but they didn't fall down, they received the Spirit, not the filling but, that's different. Now the Temple guards did, they were none believers, the same with Saul on the road to Damascus he fall to the ground in the presence of the Lord, while he was persecuting the Church. I just went to a service two weeks ago where the pastor was pushing people down, he kept leaning in on them when he was praying for them. I have had guy try to push me down before.
Since I've come to understand what John 3:3 is saying, I understand the filling the Spirit or the Spirit coming upon someone. Because it was all confusing to me before and the pastors that tried to teach on didn't understand it because they don't understand John 3:3. We can not see the kingdom of heaven unless we are born again "Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
We are born again to see the kingdom, we are born of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom. God causes us to be born again 2 Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"
When Jesus breathed on the disciples, it was so they could see the kingdom of God. John says they received the Holy Spirit, but Luke says their minds were opened to the Scriptures. This needed to happen so they could get the filling of the Spirit receive the gift of the Spirit.
I see a lot of what is blamed in the Spirit as blasphemy, like blowing on people and they fall down, sure Jesus breathed on the disciples, but they didn't fall down, they received the Spirit, not the filling but, that's different. Now the Temple guards did, they were none believers, the same with Saul on the road to Damascus he fall to the ground in the presence of the Lord, while he was persecuting the Church. I just went to a service two weeks ago where the pastor was pushing people down, he kept leaning in on them when he was praying for them. I have had guy try to push me down before.
Since I've come to understand what John 3:3 is saying, I understand the filling the Spirit or the Spirit coming upon someone. Because it was all confusing to me before and the pastors that tried to teach on didn't understand it because they don't understand John 3:3. We can not see the kingdom of heaven unless we are born again "Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
We are born again to see the kingdom, we are born of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom. God causes us to be born again 2 Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"
When Jesus breathed on the disciples, it was so they could see the kingdom of God. John says they received the Holy Spirit, but Luke says their minds were opened to the Scriptures. This needed to happen so they could get the filling of the Spirit receive the gift of the Spirit.