Gods Law - the key to the kingdom or its impossible dilemma

[PeterJens]

The law of Moses - 613 commands
The law of Christ - precepts and directions

The apostles said, we know we have met God because when we look at the law
there is no condemnation because we obey it, not out of looking at each rule,
but because we walk in the Spirit and love dwells in our hearts.

How do we know how badly we fail before the Lord?

The law enumerates all of it.

So you cannot obey it out of human will, and yet you cannot be called righteous
by failing any part of it.

We need to purified heart, a dedicated focus on love and God and others.
We need the cross and Christ and communion with Him through the Holy Spirit.

Now if we find we sing to concepts and precepts God places in the law, we
have arrived.

But the whole point is the law was written for sinners to show they had fallen
short.

We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious.
1 Tim 1:9

So the law is the guardian of the Kingdom.

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
Gal 5:14

Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:2

It is love in our hearts, which are purified and made whole through the blood
of Christ and our choice in walking in the Spirit and not the lusts of this world.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Love is the fruit of the Spirit, produced by the Spirit, as we abide in Christ. It's not something we somehow conjure up from within ourselves. God's love for us, begets love from us....and so fulfills the Law.

 

[PeterJens]

Love is the fruit of the Spirit, produced by the Spirit, as we abide in Christ. It's not something we somehow conjure up from within ourselves. God's love for us, begets love from us....and so fulfills the Law.

Love dwells in every human being from the day they are conceived in the womb.
It is in our DNA, it is why we defend young children, we weep at the loss of those
we love and care about, why as babies we automatically love our parents, even
though they maybe totally undeserving.

Christ in the cross is a statement God knows who we are and how badly we are hurt,
lost, bashed about, destitute, alone, abandoned, and without hope.

I know so many who think faith is merely a nice dream put on top of the inevitable end
in death. They feel so betrayed they cannot love, they are so restrained, hidden, repressed,
to see joy in a real sense on their face is very rare. I felt this too myself for many years,
until Christ finally broke through and made me whole.

I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
John 10:10

We hear Christ because our love in our hearts reaches out to hear
His love from His heart. We need this like a tree in a drought is slowly
dying but knows water might finally come, one day.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Love dwells in every human being from the day they are conceived in the womb.
It is in our DNA, it is why we defend young children, we weep at the loss of those
we love and care about, why as babies we automatically love our parents, even
though they maybe totally undeserving.

Christ in the cross is a statement God knows who we are and how badly we are hurt,
lost, bashed about, destitute, alone, abandoned, and without hope.

I know so many who think faith is merely a nice dream put on top of the inevitable end
in death. They feel so betrayed they cannot love, they are so restrained, hidden, repressed,
to see joy in a real sense on their face is very rare. I felt this too myself for many years,
until Christ finally broke through and made me whole.

I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
John 10:10

We hear Christ because our love in our hearts reaches out to hear
His love from His heart. We need this like a tree in a drought is slowly
dying but knows water might finally come, one day.

Your humanistic misunderstanding is showing....again.

 

[PeterJens]

Emotions - the melting pot of who we are.

I did not see this earlier in my life because I had to close my emotional life down,
I was very unhappy and depressed. This often meant in our preaching unless you
equally were depressed about life, why would you try Christ.

The downside of this state is one is shut off from ones feelings and reference points.
Christ enables us to unwrap our defences, to heal the the hurts inside, to unfurl our
wings and learn how to fly.

Now those who have not opened their hearts and started to find healing and release
these words mean nothing, because they do not believe they exist, because it is
something that is denied to them and has never happened.

But if you want to know what it is to love another human being this is somewhere where
one has to go. It is instructive to me, those who oppose my sharing, are the ones who
do not know what these words mean.

Thank you Jesus you came to set the prisoner free, to unbind the captive, to bring sight
to the blind and bring comfort to the brokenhearted. Amen. Praise the Lord.

 

[Grace777x70]

Love - God's kind of love only comes from God Himself. We only love because the Holy Spirit has poured His love into us. Romans 5:5.

We only love because He loved us first. The only love we can truly manifest is His fruit bearing in our lives. He is the VIne - we are the branches.

1 John 4:7-19 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

[SUP]12 [/SUP] No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

[SUP]13 [/SUP] By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

[SUP]14 [/SUP] We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.


[SUP]16 [/SUP] We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

[SUP]17 [/SUP] By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

 

[Johnny_B]

The entire law is not wrapped up in one, love your neighbor as yourself, because that only takes care of the last 6, the first 4 are in love the Lord God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.

 

[PeterJens]

Love - God's kind of love only comes from God Himself. We only love because the Holy Spirit has poured His love into us. Romans 5:5.

We only love because He loved us first. The only love we can truly manifest is His fruit bearing in our lives. He is the VIne - we are the branches.

So humans do not know love??? Very odd proposition

 

[Grace777x70]

Love - God's kind of love only comes from God Himself.

 

[PeterJens]

Love - God's kind of love only comes from God Himself.

How is Gods love different to ours other than in quantity and boundaries?
And because we are Gods creation why is the love we have not the love that
has come from the source, our Father and creator?

 

[PeterJens]

We are made in Gods image, so why would God not put in us His defining principle,
love, to be that which He saw as good.

What else would be appropriate for a creature to have fellowship with the Most High.

 

[stonesoffire]

We do not purify our old man...or changing ones self in any way.

God gives us a totally new heart...a new man, a creation of His image which is Spiritual.

The purifying comes from understanding what and who we are...and what He has already given.

Like our identity is no longer men...quit ye like men...but in God.

 

[Grace777x70]

We do not purify our old man...or changing ones self in any way.

God gives us a totally new heart...a new man, a creation of His image which is Spiritual.

The purifying comes from understanding what and who we are...and what He has already given.

Like our identity is no longer men...quit ye like men...but in God.

Amen....to the humanistic mindset - we are a new evolution. The truth is we are a new creation created in righteousness and holiness. This is where we are joined as one spirit with the Lord by the Holy Spirit forever. 1 Cor. 6:17 & John 14:16

This new creation/the new heart in Christ has the love of God poured into it by the Holy Spirit. Rom. 5:5 It is the fruit of His life in us that bears the fruit of God's kind of love which only originates in Christ.

Get this wrong and we create a D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness religion that actually denies the work of Christ and nullifies the very grace of God needed to walk out what already is in us as we get our minds renewed to the truths of Christ in us and our new identity as a saint.

 

[PeterJens]

We do not purify our old man...or changing ones self in any way.
God gives us a totally new heart...a new man, a creation of His image which is Spiritual.
The purifying comes from understanding what and who we are...and what He has already given.
Like our identity is no longer men...quit ye like men...but in God.

I like the proposition, but the experience of people coming to faith is not like this.
Rather it is the opposite. A growing conviction leading to a point of decision signified by
an action of faith and an statement of belief. Some have an anointing, for some it comes
later. Some have no perceivable change they just start reacting differently to situations.

But a perfect, purified heart from day one? Not anywhere I have seen or heard.

This is like sinless perfection mixed with total inability all in one go, so you can play
both sides of the argument. And that is why I reject it, out of hand as a mirage, and not
scriptural.

As a baby we are born without awareness of what we have become. We then grow as we
learn, and build on the foundation of Christ in our hearts. This is testified to by almost
everyone, and scripture supports, the transformation in behaviour from sinner to saint,
the growth in the heart and purification of attitudes and behaviours as the word takes hold
and bring life to the soul.

So other than taking a few scriptures, and making them extreme, without even testimony
to back it up, I see little value or merit in it. But if you are happy to go this way fine,
as long as you do not end up condemning the rest of the followers of Christ.

 

[wsblind]

How is Gods love different to ours other than in quantity and boundaries?
And because we are Gods creation why is the love we have not the love that
has come from the source, our Father and creator?

We were created in God's image, but a little thing like the fall of mankind happened.

If at some point you can have unconditional/impersonal Love for all. And this makes sense to you..........you are beginning the grasp the kind of love we lack as unbelievers.

God's virtue love has absolutely,positively no conditions attached to it. He loves based upon His integrity,His virtue.

 

[PeterJens]

What is unfortunate is labelling others as non-believers, or humanists, or legalists or whatever
because they take a different view.

Until one thoroughly works through the implications such labelling is just propoganda
designed to discourage people from asking and learning the issues that are involved in
case they fall into some terrible evil.

But if we are born of Spirit, we listen to Jesus and He knows us, so there should be
no fear of such a thing. But maybe people have less faith than Jesus showed in
picking 12 disciples and entrusting His whole revelation to them. Gods wisdom always
surpasses our own, Praise the Lord, amen.

 

[wsblind]

What is unfortunate is labelling others as non-believers, or humanists, or legalists or whatever
because they take a different view.

Until one thoroughly works through the implications such labelling is just propoganda
designed to discourage people from asking and learning the issues that are involved in
case they fall into some terrible evil.

But if we are born of Spirit, we listen to Jesus and He knows us, so there should be
no fear of such a thing. But maybe people have less faith than Jesus showed in
picking 12 disciples and entrusting His whole revelation to them. Gods wisdom always
surpasses our own, Praise the Lord, amen.

I am not saying you are an unbeliever Peter. An unbeliever cannot and will not have virtue love. We need the Spirit to have this type of Love.

Before you and I were saved...........we NEVER had this type of love, it was inconceivable to us as people without the Spirit.

 

[Depleted]

The law of Moses - 613 commands
The law of Christ - precepts and directions

The apostles said, we know we have met God because when we look at the law
there is no condemnation because we obey it, not out of looking at each rule,
but because we walk in the Spirit and love dwells in our hearts.

How do we know how badly we fail before the Lord?

The law enumerates all of it.

So you cannot obey it out of human will, and yet you cannot be called righteous
by failing any part of it.

We need to purified heart, a dedicated focus on love and God and others.
We need the cross and Christ and communion with Him through the Holy Spirit.

Now if we find we sing to concepts and precepts God places in the law, we
have arrived.

But the whole point is the law was written for sinners to show they had fallen
short.

We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious.
1 Tim 1:9

So the law is the guardian of the Kingdom.

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
Gal 5:14

Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:2

It is love in our hearts, which are purified and made whole through the blood
of Christ and our choice in walking in the Spirit and not the lusts of this world.

Didn't the 10000+ pages of this same argument so far not give you enough arguing time? Seriously? You're not out to learn, and all you do is argue, so you have nothing to teach other than how to keep up an argument for months, if not years, at a time.

If only you were after God working it out in your heart rather than proving 3-4 other people wrong.



Anyone want to guess how long this argument last? I'm going 20 pages. Not that it ends there, but at that time, another brand new post goes up to continue this. Maybe 3-4 more of the same-thing posts instead.

 

[Grace777x70]

We do not transfer from a sinner to saint gradually because of behavior which we do or don't do. That's a self-righteousness/holiness works-based belief system. We become a saint because of the love of God in Christ who has made us saints because Christ Himself is our sanctification.

Christ dwells by the Holy Spirit in our new hearts.

Paul calls the believers who have Christ in them "saints" 63 times and it has nothing to do with their behavior as can be seen in 1 Corinthians. Everything always comes down to Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

1 John 3:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

Because He is holy - He has made us His children holy in our new hearts - created in righteousness and holiness. Eph. 4:2.

Now we walk out this holiness that we do have in Him outwardly as the Holy spirit transforms us as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18 We see Christ Himself in us and that we have His righteousness.

This causes us to "awake to righteousness and sin not". The Greek word for "awake" means " to come to one's true self, to sober up" and be who you are.

We haven't even scratched the surface of the great salvation we have in Christ!

 

[limey410]

I like the proposition, but the experience of people coming to faith is not like this.
Rather it is the opposite. A growing conviction leading to a point of decision signified by
an action of faith and an statement of belief. Some have an anointing, for some it comes
later. Some have no perceivable change they just start reacting differently to situations.

But a perfect, purified heart from day one? Not anywhere I have seen or heard.

This is like sinless perfection mixed with total inability all in one go, so you can play
both sides of the argument. And that is why I reject it, out of hand as a mirage, and not
scriptural.

As a baby we are born without awareness of what we have become. We then grow as we
learn, and build on the foundation of Christ in our hearts. This is testified to by almost
everyone, and scripture supports, the transformation in behaviour from sinner to saint,
the growth in the heart and purification of attitudes and behaviours as the word takes hold
and bring life to the soul.

So other than taking a few scriptures, and making them extreme, without even testimony
to back it up, I see little value or merit in it. But if you are happy to go this way fine,
as long as you do not end up condemning the rest of the followers of Christ.

Peter, you have very little faith in the ability of God.
The moment you receive salvation is the moment you receive everything for life and godliness.
You fail to see that it is not your work that "gets you there". It is His finished work that accomplishes this.

Of course you don't gain maturity right away, He reveals more to you through a relationship with Him, as you walk with Him, but that relationship is from minute one.

It is not gained or lost over time. He is yours and you are His. When you receive the Holy Spirit, you go from filthy rags, to as white as snow. You have accepted that sin is forgiven and God can now indwell the place in your heart that he created only for Him to dwell, because He now sees you spotless. You are a Saint.
It is the Spirit that takes hold, His word is the testimony to that. The word of God is true, it is the Spirit of God that is alive in us.