The Pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Sir, i already asked this in a thread but since you dont necessarily go back to look at every single thread I decided to ask you privately since you seem to be the most knowledgeable of the pre-trib folk on this site.

In the thread you said that we aren't appointed to God's wrath (which is true) and that Jesus will gather the church before the first seal is opened by Jesus (makes a lot of sense)

All good so far, then you proceed to quote 1 thessalonians 4:13-17 which discusses this gathering, but notice when it happens(the gathering) at "the COMING OF THE LORD".

So now, as i said earlier, pre-trib rapture is very logical, makes a lot of sense, but I find in scripture that the gathering(rapture) happens at the COMING OF THE LORD: So now my QUESTION IS THIS: If someone can prove to me there is more than one coming of the Lord, I will be a pre-trib rapture believer INSTANTLY, because it does make sense logically.

Another thing is why would we have to go thru the time of Jacob's trouble? that makes no sense to me either. Even more of a reason to want to believe in pre-trib (not to mention escaping the torments of it)

Greetings Issachar92,

I apologize for the length of this ahead of time.

Thank you for your letter. I can see that you are sincere in finding out the truth. Regarding your question, first of all as you know, there is no scripture that says, "here it is folks, the gathering of the church happens right here." If that were the case, this controversy about the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, wouldn't exist.

Coming to a conclusion of when the gathering of the church takes place is based on cross-referencing and comparing scripture, as well as understanding the righteousness of God, the underlying principle.

Jesus said "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it" which is still in the process of being built. In between right now and the time that the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God must take place, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments described in Revelation.

In your letter above you make mention of "more than one coming." It is important to understand that the event of the gathering of the church is a separate event from when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

When he comes to gather the church, he is not returning to the earth, but will descend from heaven into the atmosphere, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Immediately after that, the living will be changed into those immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have just previously resurrected (1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53).

The Lord will then take the entire group back to the Father's house (heaven) in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-17. Therefore, the Lord will appear in the sky to gather his church, taking us back to the Father's house and then after God's wrath has completed He will then return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom and the church will be with him (Matt.24:29-31, Jude 14-15, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21)

Since the wrath of God must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9, Rev.3:10), then the church cannot be gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, for that would put the living believers through the entire wrath of God. Therefore, it is important to understand that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as being two separate events.

There is an underlying principal that the opposition is not taking into consideration, which I continue to bring up. When a person comes to Christ, they are credited with Christ's righteousness. God sees the believer as perfect through faith in Christ. We are also reconciled i.e. brought back into a right relationship with God. The result of this is that God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and that because God's wrath was poured out on Christ. God's wrath, as a result of our sin, has been satisfied completely through Christ. God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer.

Now that being said, since we know that God's wrath must take place prior to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and believers have been reconciled to God and have been credited with righteousness, how then can believers go through God's wrath and then be gathered afterwards?
This presents a contradiction for those who would have the church gathered after God's wrath.

The answer to this is that people have not taken into consideration all of the exegetical information. The basic errors are as follows:

1. Not recognizing that the event of the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to end the age, as being two separate events.

2. Not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath and who it is going to be the recipients of His wrath.

3. Not recognizing that the first resurrection has stages/phases and that it is not just one event which takes place at Rev.20:4-6.

4. Not recognizing the difference between the church and the great tribulation saints as being two different groups as revealed in the book of Revelation.

Now, all that said, the best scripture which demonstrates that the church will be in heaven during the time of God's wrath, is found in Rev.19:11-21, which is synonymous with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age in Matt.24:30-31.

Shortly after the 7th bowl is poured out, which completes God's wrath (Rev.15:1, 16:17), the Lord will descend from heaven to end the age. Prior to the Lord's descending we see the church/bride in heaven receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb, as described in Rev.19:6-8:

"Hallelujah!For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear."

So, in the scripture above, we see the church/bride receiving her fine linen, bright and clean at the wedding of the Lamb which takes place in heaven. After that, in Rev.19:14 we see an army following Christ out of heaven to end the age:

"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."

Notice that the armies following Christ out of heaven are wearing the same fine linen, white and clean that the bride had previously been given at the wedding of the Lamb in Rev.19:6-8. This scripture reveals the church/bride returning with Christ when he returns to the earth to end the age. We also have verification of regarding those who are returning with Christ to the earth to end the age, as being those believers who will have previously been resurrected and caught up, as found in Rev.17:14:

"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

The "called, chosen and faithful followers" is the bride, the church, who is also that army that is seen following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing that fine linen, white and clean.

Here is the obvious question, if the church/bride is shown receiving her fine linen, white and clean in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and are shown to be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses wearing that same fine linen, how then can the church be gathered when the Lord returns to end the age, if we are seen following him out of heaven when he is returning to end the age? In order to follow Christ out of heaven, the church would already have to be in heaven.

There is other information that needs to be taken into consideration regarding the church being gathered before the time of God's wrath, as described below:

From Revelation chapters 1 thru the end of chapter 3, the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" is used 18 times. Within those same chapters you will not find the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints."

Likewise, From chapter 4 onward only the word Hagios/saints is used and the word Ekklesia/Church is never used again. the next time we see the church is in reference to her as being the bride in Rev.19:6-8 when she is receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb. And the next time we actually see the word Ekklesia/Church, is in Rev.22:16, which is outside of the narrative of the events of God's wrath.

Revelation 1 thru 3 = Ekklesia/Church only, Hagios/Saints not found

Revelation 4 onward = Hagios/saints only, Ekklesia/church not found

The above information demonstrates that the use and disuse of the words Ekklesia vs. Hagios and the fact that they are not used interchangeably in the book of Revelation, is yet another clue that God put in his word for those of us who diligently study his word to find, as further proof, that the church is gathered prior to God's wrath. The church is never mentioned again after the end of chapter 3.

I hope that this information is beneficial and helpful in your desire to know the truth. If you have any questions at all regarding this or any other Biblical issues, I would be happy to be of help.

Blessings in Christ!

 

[samuel23]

The New Testament teaches THE, as in one, return of Christ. The two returns was make up by John Darby around 1830 and he went around the country teaching it. Schofield liked the teaching and put it in the footnotes of his bibles, a whole generation grew up believing it was part of the bible. It has great appear because it is a way out of the tribulation that Jesus said the church would go through. Pre-trib is an end time deception, Satan came to Jesus and offered Him the crown without the cross and Jesus rejected the offer of Satan, Satan came to the end time church and offered then the rapture without the tribulation, the end time church has accepted the offer of Satan.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The New Testament teaches THE, as in one, return of Christ. The two returns was make up by John Darby around 1830 and he went around the country teaching it. Schofield liked the teaching and put it in the footnotes of his bibles, a whole generation grew up believing it was part of the bible. It has great appear because it is a way out of the tribulation that Jesus said the church would go through. Pre-trib is an end time deception, Satan came to Jesus and offered Him the crown without the cross and Jesus rejected the offer of Satan, Satan came to the end time church and offered then the rapture without the tribulation, the end time church has accepted the offer of Satan.

Obviously Samuel23, you ignored the part where I make mention that at the gathering of the church Christ does not return to the earth, but comes to gather his church and take them back to the Father's house in fulfillment of his promise. You have to admit that according to John 14:1-3, that at some point the Lord has to come back for his church to take them back to the Father's house. When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the church would not be going to heaven at that time, but will be ruling with Christ during his thousand year reign. Therefore, the church as to be gathered at a previous time in order for John 14:1-3 to be fulfilled.

Schofield has nothing to do with the information that I provided, as it is the word of God. Nor do I have a Schofield or Darby bible. These are just the same weak apologetics that you and others continue to use in refutation of the truth.

 

[Blain]

The person who wrote to Ahwatukee is very much correct in saying he has the most understanding of the pretrib rapture and it is very true as well that the rapture is not the same as his second coming as the rapture is us going to him not him coming to us

 

[Issachar92]

Indeed i asked for this conversation to be released here, I think a lot of people will be convinced by this.
Its clear in my opinion.

When you add it all up, there is just NO WAY Christ is gonna pour out wrath on His own body, us being the body of Christ.

It wouldnt make any sense.

Not to mention in the tribulation period you can lose your salvation but now we are sealed, how could that be if we go thru jacob's trouble?

 

[Blain]

Not to mention I have seen the rapture happen many times in both dreams and visions and it always happened in this manner I also have seen this army that it speaks of, for the purpose of the thread I will explain the dream of his armies. many times when I am shown a prophetic event to happen I am in a first person view, a spectator and I remember seeing the armies of God and the armies of satan. they were second away from an all out battle satans army had satan in the front in the form of a giant snake in God's army one of the warriors kneeled down to pray and as soon as he did for some reason satan noticed my presence and lunged towards me to devour me i even remember in detail the inside of his serpent mouth however he never was able to swallow me because the dream ended before he could.

This was three years ago i had this dream and while i don't fully understand the meaning of it I recognize the scripture of God's army to fight satan at the lords return

 

[Issachar92]

The New Testament teaches THE, as in one, return of Christ. The two returns was make up by John Darby around 1830 and he went around the country teaching it. Schofield liked the teaching and put it in the footnotes of his bibles, a whole generation grew up believing it was part of the bible. It has great appear because it is a way out of the tribulation that Jesus said the church would go through. Pre-trib is an end time deception, Satan came to Jesus and offered Him the crown without the cross and Jesus rejected the offer of Satan, Satan came to the end time church and offered then the rapture without the tribulation, the end time church has accepted the offer of Satan.

The whole crown without the cross, lets all just humble ourselves before Christ and realize that He did all things necessary to redeem us from the wrath, accept what is writtten lets not try to be superheroes and go thru jacob's trouble like alex jones.

 

[MattTooFor]

Not to mention in the tribulation period you can lose your salvation but now we are sealed, how could that be if we go thru jacob's trouble?

Who can "lose" salvation?? Who is "you"? In other words, you're begging the question of who is or isn't "saved" to begin with. No one "loses' their salvation. But many, many people today who populate the church world and who are, in fact, "believers" in some form or fashion...are not GENUINE believers and they will fall away in the dark hours of "great tribulation".

The problem is...these "lazy grace" people designate absolutely anyone who darkens the door of a church...as "saved, saved, saved". If you try to preach these "Parable of the Sower"-type believers a little bit of "hell, fire, and brimstone"...the "lazy grace' people will set upon you and accuse you of "salvation by works"...when, in fact, there are millions in the Evangelical world who desperately need someone to light a fire under them. As the Book of James says (I'm paraphrasing) "get off the dime - faith without works is dead".

It has become 'super-hip' and 'super-cool' to attend one of these many super-hip Evangelical 'super-churches'...with the super-hip music (I've even seen smoke machines and multi-colored flashing lights like at a rock concert)...and the super-hip pastor with the wrap-around face mike and the Hawaiian shirt, preaching a super-hip "pop psychology" message from a super-hip bar stool.

Millions of fair weather "Christians" out there these days. They'll drop like a rock at the first hint of serious persecution.

When you add it all up, there is just NO WAY Christ is gonna pour out wrath on His own body, us being the body of Christ.

He DOESN'T pour His wrath on believers. We are removed before God's wrath. It's the wrath of the world and the Devil which Jesus NEVER said we would circumvent -- "In this world you will have tribulation but be of good cheer for I have overcome the world."

 

[Issachar92]

Who can "lose" salvation?? Who is "you"? In other words, you're begging the question of who is or isn't "saved" to begin with. No one "loses' their salvation. But many, many people today who populate the church world and who are, in fact, "believers" in some form or fashion...are not GENUINE believers and they will fall away in the dark hours of "great tribulation".

The problem is...these "lazy grace" people designate absolutely anyone who darkens the door of a church...as "saved, saved, saved". If you try to preach these "Parable of the Sower"-type believers a little bit of "hell, fire, and brimstone"...the "lazy grace' people will set upon you and accuse you of "salvation by works"...when, in fact, there are millions in the Evangelical world who desperately need someone to light a fire under them. As the Book of James says (I'm paraphrasing) "get off the dime - faith without works is dead".

It has become 'super-hip' and 'super-cool' to attend one of these many super-hip Evangelical 'super-churches'...with the super-hip music (I've even seen smoke machines and multi-colored flashing lights like at a rock concert)...and the super-hip pastor with the wrap-around face mike and the Hawaiian shirt, preaching a super-hip "pop psychology" message from a super-hip bar stool.

Millions of fair weather "Christians" out there these days. They'll drop like a rock at the first hint of serious persecution.

He DOESN'T pour His wrath on believers. We are removed before God's wrath. It's the wrath of the world and the Devil which Jesus NEVER said we would circumvent -- "In this world you will have tribulation but be of good cheer for I have overcome the world."

Listen to Danny Castle or Charles Lawson they are what you would probably consider "lazy grace" people and they are very hellfire and brimstone preachers.

Ok two things, first of all, Jesus opens up the seals so its His wrath obviously, second of all the word "pre-trib" or post trib is kinda misleading and loose language to begin with, its the time of Jacob's trouble thats the biblical title of it, and yes we will have tribulation in the world but not wrath of God which is in rev 6 the seals opened by Jesus.

I understand where you are coming from since I have rejected pre-trib forever as well but after taking time to look into it and pray about it, im convinced the LORD will gather His church before He starts pouring out His wrath, before the antichrist shows up WE'LL BE GONE. YEYAH!

 

[Blain]

I certainly am much more of a pretrib rapture believer however it is not an escape for me and I am not afraid to face the tribulation, it doesn't matter to me if it's pre mid or post I have chosen my path to give it my all regardless of what happens or doesn't happen. I mean honestly while the rapture is amazing and is a beautiful hope if we put all our hopes on that and to not have to face what is to come then why do we seek to be strong in love and as a believers in the first place?

Why everyday do we seek to be strong in love and in him and to bear his heart if we are only going to be rescued in the rapture? I know many people who place their hopes on the rapture simply because of the pain and sadness of life and i can understand more than most people why they would feel this way but the thing is they see the rapture as simply an escape.
It isn't wrong to want to go home for that reason but what if the rapture doesn't happen exactly like that? are we prepared to face what is to come? will our hearts be able to stand in the heart of darkness?

I say hope and look for the rapture but also have our hearts prepared for what is to come as well

 

[Ahwatukee]

It isn't wrong to want to go home for that reason but what if the rapture doesn't happen exactly like that? are we prepared to face what is to come? will our hearts be able to stand in the heart of darkness?

That's the whole point Blain, what is to come is the wrath of God, which believers are not appointed to suffer. God's coming wrath is not the same as the common trials and tribulations that believers currently suffer. Furthermore, Jesus said that he would keep us out of that time of wrath (Rev.3:10)

"For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." - Titus 2:13-14

"Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing."

In view of the above, if the church was to go through the wrath of God, it would not be a blessed hope, nor could we comfort one another with those words of being gathered. Believers are to be prepared to go through the trials and tribulations that come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness because of our faith in Christ . What is coming upon this earth after the church has been gathered, will be the wrath of God, which again, believers are not appointed to suffer (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9, Rev.3:10)

Not looking for his appearing to gather us before his wrath, is to not trust in his promise. Anyone who believes that believers will go through the wrath of God first and then be gathered, are not truly understanding that Christ took upon himself the wrath that all believers deserve. If believers were to go through God's wrath, it would mean that Christ suffered our wrath for nothing. It would be like Christ saying "the good news is that your sins are forgiven and you have eternal life. The bad news is that, even though you have been reconciled through faith in me and have been credited with righteousness, I'm going to send you through my wrath anyway, even though I already suffered it for you."

Do you see who ridiculous it is to believe that the church must still go through the wrath of God?

We will and do suffer common trials and tribulations because of our faith. But we will not suffer through God's coming wrath that is going to be poured out upon this world.

Believers can trust in his promise of being keep out of that time of trial and that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

 

[buddyt]

Samuel

I agree with you Brother. False teaching from man spreads like wild fire. True Christians at the time of Gods Wrath won't have to worry if they are true believers. I ask do they believe Luke 10:19 or not ? You can refer to scripture after scripture and they will try to debunk it any way they can. You cant get trough to this group. When the time comes and the antichrist shows up we should pray our brothers not believe he is our Jesus. But we know the word tells us that's the way it's gonna be. Myself I believe it's alot because of false teaching from man.

 

[popeye]

Samuel

I agree with you Brother. False teaching from man spreads like wild fire. True Christians at the time of Gods Wrath won't have to worry if they are true believers. I ask do they believe Luke 10:19 or not ? You can refer to scripture after scripture and they will try to debunk it any way they can. You cant get trough to this group. When the time comes and the antichrist shows up we should pray our brothers not believe he is our Jesus. But we know the word tells us that's the way it's gonna be. Myself I believe it's alot because of false teaching from man.

Is rev 14 false?

It destroys both of you guys assertions.

Neither of you thought out your deal.

 

[popeye]

The New Testament teaches THE, as in one, return of Christ. The two returns was make up by John Darby around 1830 and he went around the country teaching it. Schofield liked the teaching and put it in the footnotes of his bibles, a whole generation grew up believing it was part of the bible. It has great appear because it is a way out of the tribulation that Jesus said the church would go through. Pre-trib is an end time deception, Satan came to Jesus and offered Him the crown without the cross and Jesus rejected the offer of Satan, Satan came to the end time church and offered then the rapture without the tribulation, the end time church has accepted the offer of Satan.

What about McDonald?

Why leave her out?

The one you guys depict as crazy and delusional.

More post trib stepping on your own tongue huh?

I did your homework once again,showed you she was post trb LOL

TOO FUNNY

 

[Johnny_B]

Anyone that calls grace lazy, greasy or any other word, does not understand grace, Jesus gave His life so that we by God grace to be saved. There is no form or fashion of believes, you are either regenerate or you are not.

The great falling away has noting to do with salvation, it's a great apostasy of the faith, exactly what happening now. The word grace has been abused and used by un-regenerate men, because they think and teach that God's unmerited favor comes by their faith.

 

[buddyt]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But I would not have you to be ignorant brethren concerning them which are asleep that ye sorrow not even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
The subject here in verse 13 refers to where the dead are. Verse 14 clearly tells us where they are. They are with the Father. Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. What we are being told here is that at the Lords return he will bring those that have died in him with him. Simple to understand. Verse 16 doesn't read correctly it should read : For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout with the voice of the Arch-Angel and with the Trump of God and the dead in Christ shall RETURN with him. We already know where the dead are so no need to say shall rise first. This written the way it is leads people to believe they'll be popping out of holes in the ground. The Trump of God refers to the last Trump you find in the book of Revelation. I have read here on this Forum that there are other Trumps other than those spoke of in Revelation. I asked for someone to tell me where but as expected I've never been given an answer. If you know please tell me. Verse 17 tells us what happens at Christ's return. 1 Cor.15:52-53 Verse 18 is just simply telling us to not worry about where the Dead are as the subject starts out in Verse 13.
Nowhere in Gods word does it say Christ will return twice. If you are one of those who believe this your setting yourself up to be in Satan's wagon when he tells you hes here to rapture you away.
2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Thessalonians 2:1-5 Paul wrote a second letter to explain himself and exactly what he meant in the first. Verse 1 Now we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together with him. Paul is telling us here to listen very closely pay attention to this. Verse 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled neither by spirit nor by word NOR BY LETTER FROM US as that the day of Christ is at hand. This verse is telling you don't be worried or confused don't misunderstand even the first letter written to you as to when Christ will return. Verse 3-5 Let no man deceive you by any means for THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME except there come a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed the son of perdition. 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not that when I was yet with you I told you these things. These verses are simply telling us we are not going to see Jesus again until Satan comes claiming to be Jesus.
Finally Ezekiel 13:20 tells us what God says about all this. It reads: Wherefore thus saith the Lord God Behold I am against your pillows wherewith ye there hunt the the souls to make them FLY and I will tear them from your arms and will let the souls go even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. How can any man not understand what is being said here. The Rapture theory is a very DANGEROUS false teaching my friend. If you are one who has been thought this do some in-depth study on the subject on your own don't believe this Man or any other Man. Bless you and please study this its very important.

 

[buddyt]

Ezekiel 13:20 Why do men refuse to believe Gods word. Why do they not read with understanding. The answer is written.

 

[Ahwatukee]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But I would not have you to be ignorant brethren concerning them which are asleep that ye sorrow not even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
The subject here in verse 13 refers to where the dead are. Verse 14 clearly tells us where they are. They are with the Father. Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. What we are being told here is that at the Lords return he will bring those that have died in him with him. Simple to understand. Verse 16 doesn't read correctly it should read : For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout with the voice of the Arch-Angel and with the Trump of God and the dead in Christ shall RETURN with him. We already know where the dead are so no need to say shall rise first. This written the way it is leads people to believe they'll be popping out of holes in the ground. The Trump of God refers to the last Trump you find in the book of Revelation. I have read here on this Forum that there are other Trumps other than those spoke of in Revelation. I asked for someone to tell me where but as expected I've never been given an answer. If you know please tell me. Verse 17 tells us what happens at Christ's return. 1 Cor.15:52-53 Verse 18 is just simply telling us to not worry about where the Dead are as the subject starts out in Verse 13.
Nowhere in Gods word does it say Christ will return twice. If you are one of those who believe this your setting yourself up to be in Satan's wagon when he tells you hes here to rapture you away.
2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Thessalonians 2:1-5 Paul wrote a second letter to explain himself and exactly what he meant in the first. Verse 1 Now we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together with him. Paul is telling us here to listen very closely pay attention to this. Verse 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled neither by spirit nor by word NOR BY LETTER FROM US as that the day of Christ is at hand. This verse is telling you don't be worried or confused don't misunderstand even the first letter written to you as to when Christ will return. Verse 3-5 Let no man deceive you by any means for THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME except there come a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed the son of perdition. 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not that when I was yet with you I told you these things. These verses are simply telling us we are not going to see Jesus again until Satan comes claiming to be Jesus.
Finally Ezekiel 13:20 tells us what God says about all this. It reads: Wherefore thus saith the Lord God Behold I am against your pillows wherewith ye there hunt the the souls to make them FLY and I will tear them from your arms and will let the souls go even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. How can any man not understand what is being said here. The Rapture theory is a very DANGEROUS false teaching my friend. If you are one who has been thought this do some in-depth study on the subject on your own don't believe this Man or any other Man. Bless you and please study this its very important.

Hello buddyt,

1 Thes.4:13-17 is not just about where the dead are. It's about the dead resurrecting i.e. a bodily standing up again. It also tellls us that in an "atomos" those still alive at the time the resurrection takes place, the living will be changed and caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. In combination with John 14:1-3, the Lord will then take entire group back to the Father's house in fulfillment of his promise. Also, when Christ comes to gather the church, he is not returning to the earth, but only meeting the church in the air and then taking them back to the Father's house. So stop thinking of it in terms of him returning at the gathering. It is not until the end of the tribulation that he actually returns and we with him to end the age.

Have you considered what I wrote regarding the armies riding on white horses, wearing fine linen, white and clean, who they are and where they are coming from? How can you continue to claim that the church is gathered at the end of the age, when they are shown to be returning with Christ out of heaven? Consequently, in order for the church to follow Christ out of heaven, they would already have to be in heaven.

Also, as I have made known to you many times, if Matt.24:30-31 was the gathering of the church, it would put the church through the entire wrath of God and that cannot and will not take place, because we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

You need to understand that Matt.24:30-31 is the event of the Lord returning to the earth to end the age. At that time the Lord will send out his angels, as described in the parable of the weeds and the wheat, and they will first gather the weeds (one taken) and they will brought back to Armageddon where they will be killed by the double-edged sword. After that, the angels will collect the wheat, those who will still be alive after Christ returns to the earth, and they will be those who will enter into the millennial period, along with Israel and they will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.

your on-going error, is not recognizing that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth, as being two separate events. Until you understand this,your conclusions on end-time events will always be in error.

The other thing that you need to understand is that there is a difference between the church and the great tribulation saints. These are those who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17, who are those who will believe in Christ after the church has been gathered, but will be exposed to God's time of wrath and that because they will not have been believers when the Lord came to gather the church.