Is there ever any condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus?

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know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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#1
Is it possible for a child of God to come into condemnation?
Some might jokingly say, 'Yes, on CC'. And that would be true, but does God ever condemn those who are in Jesus?
One of the scriptures that would come into question obviously would be Romans 8:1, which I see many using.
The King James writes it like this.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

But there are other versions that leave out the latter half and write it like this.

(ASV) There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

The funny thing about this is that most of the old text found, about 95%, agree with the KJB, and the other 5%, agree with the ASV.
Many translation of today leave out the latter half claiming that the older and more reliable text don't have it in there. The older part is true, but as for the more reliable text, that I call into question.
Have any of you looked at a Catholic bible lately? I know some of you are Catholic, and I have nothing against the people who claim to be Catholic. I just have a thing or two against the church and its doctrines, which I believe made it so that they could have power/influence over the masses. That's why they outlawed it for anyone to have a bible in the early church history.
Anyway, if you have, you would see that it too has the same verse without the latter half.
What does that have to do with the older and more reliable text?
They are Catholic texts, that the early church manipulated by attempting to erase that which was written in the codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. And yes, you can still see the old writing they erased on the parchment.
Those who wrote the KJB had these same text available to review, only for Spurgeon to call them corrupt.
The reason why it is important is because, with the text removed, it leads Christians to believe that they can do anything without coming into condemnation, and that they are automatically forgiven of every sins they commit.
But with the latter half in place, it would let those who are in Christ Jesus, or to those who are born again, know that they can indeed come into condemnation if they fail to walk after the Spirit and choose to walk after the flesh.
That would mean they cannot do anything they want to do without consequences, and that everything they do is not automatically forgiven and covered under the blood of Jesus without repentance.
God forbid that we should preach repentance to the church, or the body of Christ.
There are many more verses in the bible that deal with this subject, but for now, what are some of your thoughts?
Can we, the body of Christ, come into condemnation or not?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#2
Can we, the body of Christ, come into condemnation or not?
I want to respond before the Bible correctors do their thing.:)

There is condemnation to them who are in Christ. Notice, the context is condemnation coming upon those who are IN CHRIST JESUS. Condemnation can come upon believers when we walk after the flesh and not after the Spirit. Remember, Condemnation does not always mean eternal condemnation. Context will clear things up. There is temporal condemnation in this life and at the Judgment Seat of Christ where the believer will face judgment. Temporal condemnation does nothing concerning your standing in Christ. The foundation of Christ cannot be shaken. Example:

Romans 14
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Almost the entire chapter deals with dealing with weaker brethren and how the more spiritual brethren are to put preferences aside in order not to offend a weaker brother in Christ. Notice in verse 23, this condemnation is compared to sin, not eternal punishment in hell. Another good example of temporal condemnation can be found in 1 Corinthians 11 and the Lord's supper.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#3
No one left out the latter portion of Romans 8:1. The KJV isn't the standard of measure for all other translations, and in fact it was added into the text of Scripture which is why it is in the KJV. Modern translations rightly have excluded that portion.

No, a child of God can never come into condemnation. John 3:16ff shows this truth and so do many other passages, but if you all want to lose the LORD's salvation, well, then go for it. I'll just believe the "good news" and you all can have your almost good news that you can spoil at any given moment. :)

The only way some come to this false conclusion that one converted can come into condemnation again is to add the heresy of free will in the mix. These then state that the person can freely walk away from salvation. This is a denial of the new birth, the Gospel, Christ's victory, mission, words and all it entails, &c.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#4
No because we are in fact in Christ. We have no condemnation from God's perspective but we can do that to ourselves and of course some people do try to condemn others too.

The word for "walk" means to "walk around as in a sphere of being - where they tread with their feet" or state of living and moving about.

"Being or walking in the flesh" are those that have not received Christ and "being in the spirit" is a position or a reality that the new creation in Christ is in.

This scripture is in all translations and we are not in the flesh but in the spirit - if Christ dwells in us.

Romans 8:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
 
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Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
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#5
I believe that children of God are chosen by Him for eternal life, but the following passage puzzles me a little bit:

[h=3]Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV [/h]For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#6
I believe that children of God are chosen by Him for eternal life, but the following passage puzzles me a little bit:

Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
There is a thread that discusses this scripture in detail from different angles.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/138679-hebrews-6-4-6-not-seems.html

I have heard ministers in the past try to use it as those that are "away from church" to try to get them back in again. However if that is the accurate interpretation ( I don't believe it is ) - it would be impossible to renew them again - so why the attempt to get them back?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,542
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#7
No because we are in fact in Christ. We have no condemnation from God's perspective but we can do that to ourselves and of course some people do try to condemn others too.

The word for "walk" means to "walk around as in a sphere of being - where they tread with their feet" or state of living and moving about.

"Being or walking in the flesh" are those that have not received Christ and "being in the spirit" is a position or a reality that the new creation in Christ is in.

This scripture is in all translations and we are not in the flesh but in the spirit - if Christ dwells in us.

Romans 8:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
I agree, the believer is not "in the flesh" but a believer can "walk after the flesh." A believer has been circumcised from the body of flesh, but Paul warns over and over to the body of Christ to not walk after the flesh but walk after the Spirit. Walking after the Spirit pleases God. Walking after the flesh is carnal, worldly like the church at Corinth. Condemnation can come upon believers who walk after the flesh. Do you not think judgment is coming, either here in this life or at the JSOC, to carnal believers?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#8
I agree, the believer is not "in the flesh" but a believer can "walk after the flesh." A believer has been circumcised from the body of flesh, but Paul warns over and over to the body of Christ to not walk after the flesh but walk after the Spirit. Walking after the Spirit pleases God. Walking after the flesh is carnal, worldly like the church at Corinth. Condemnation can come upon believers who walk after the flesh. Do you not think judgment is coming, either here in this life or at the JSOC, to carnal believers?
I do believe that believers can live "according to the flesh" for sure but there is no condemnation from God which is what the OP is about in Romans 8:1.

"According to the flesh" and "walk in the flesh" are 2 different things although they are related.

It is interesting that the Greek word for "walk" here in Gal. 5:25 is completely different then in Romans 8:4 or in the KJV 8:1. ( It means to proceed in a row or rule )

Galatians 5:25 (NASB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.


If believers are living "according to the flesh" they will die just like in says in Romans 8:12. Take up shooting heroin in our arms and the reality of this will become apparent quickly.

There are many works of the flesh which all bring death to us in some form while in this earth. Malice and slandering bring death to us as well as living in sexual sinning or outburst of anger - actually all the works of the flesh bring death.

I believe there is much to judgment that has not been looked at thoroughly yet by the body of Christ. Jesus said that the Father judges no one and all judgment has been handled over to Him. He also said that He Himself judges no one - but the word He speaks judges.

Jesus also said that if He be lifted up on the cross - all judgment would be drawn to Him. John 12:32 ( unfortunately the KJV translators and some other translations added in "men" to the text because the word "men" is not in the text. ) Jesus is talking about judgment. All judgment is drawn to Jesus - He took all judgment.

Those that do not receive Christ will still have the wrath of God abiding on them when they stand in His presence. The wrath, judgment and vengeance of God is toward the sin that has come to destroy those He loves fiercely. These are manifestations of His love.

The sin of unbelief will be still on the person who rejects Christ. It will be a terrifying thing to be in His presence with sin still on you as in the case of the unbeliever in Christ.
 
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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,555
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#9
Is it possible for a child of God to come into condemnation? ...
The King James writes it like this:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
... They are Catholic texts, that the early church manipulated by attempting to erase that which was written in the codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. ...Those who wrote the KJB had these same text (sic) available to review...
Regarding the bolded part, neither the Sinaiticus nor the Vaticanus was available to the translators of the KJV. Sinaiticus was only uncovered in 1844 (source: Codex Sinaiticus - History ).

The Vaticanus was held in the Vatican but was also not available for reference by the translators. Erasmus contacted Bombasius (who worked at the Vatican) in 1521 concerning the Comma Johanneum (1 John 5:7) as recorded in Vaticanus (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus). Erasmus apparently did not see it himself. The text of Vaticanus was not printed widely until the 19th century.

The KJV translators used Erasmus' five printed editions, along with those of Stephanus and Beza, in the compilation of the KJV. For further information, check out James White's The King James Only Controversy (2nd ed.).
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#10
No because we are in fact in Christ. We have no condemnation from God's perspective but we can do that to ourselves and of course some people do try to condemn others too.

The word for "walk" means to "walk around as in a sphere of being - where they tread with their feet" or state of living and moving about.

"Being or walking in the flesh" are those that have not received Christ and "being in the spirit" is a position or a reality that the new creation in Christ is in.

This scripture is in all translations and we are not in the flesh but in the spirit - if Christ dwells in us.

Romans 8:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Romans 8
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Obligation -something by which a person is bound or obliged to do certain things, and which arises out of a sense of duty or results from custom, law, etc.
something that is done or is to be done for such reasons:

Living by the flesh equals death but if by the Spirit equals life. If we live by the Spirit we will live.

How do we live by the Spirit? Listen and be led by the Spirit. This surrender in faith is how we are to live in the Spirit. The Spirit forever remains in us after repentance and surrendering and this will forever obligate us to choose to surrender and be led by God or choose flesh and be led by satin.

Do you truly believe Romans 8 is implying that once we have the Spirit we no longer sin, no longer able to live by the flesh?

If this was even the case and we are automatically led by the Spirit, why even warn believers about living in the flesh? Marcelo is wise to ponder what Hebrews has to say about deliberate sin. It would be wise to study other scriptures about falling away, shipwrecked faith, remaining faithful, abide, led, believe.

Why tell believers this if the Spirit makes us do all these things. Did Jesus say he was going to send an enforcer or a helper.

Romans 8 just like the rest of the bible is saying if you surrender and be led by the Spirit, you are promised life. If you follow your fallen nature, you ignore your obligations, you ignore the Spirit this COULD lead to death. Basically it will be God who can see these people's hearts and will judge the heart. We can only see the backsliding of a Christian if they are not hiding it.

Just as James tells us

James 5:19-20Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

19 My brothers, if any among you strays from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his life from death and cover a multitude of sins.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#11
There is a thread that discusses this scripture in detail from different angles.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/138679-hebrews-6-4-6-not-seems.html

I have heard ministers in the past try to use it as those that are "away from church" to try to get them back in again. However if that is the accurate interpretation ( I don't believe it is ) - it would be impossible to renew them again - so why the attempt to get them back?
Its also a good idea to see the opposite understanding than Calvinism.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#12
Romans 8
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Obligation -something by which a person is bound or obliged to do certain things, and which arises out of a sense of duty or results from custom, law, etc.
something that is done or is to be done for such reasons:

Living by the flesh equals death but if by the Spirit equals life. If we live by the Spirit we will live.

How do we live by the Spirit? Listen and be led by the Spirit. This surrender in faith is how we are to live in the Spirit. The Spirit forever remains in us after repentance and surrendering and this will forever obligate us to choose to surrender and be led by God or choose flesh and be led by satin.

Do you truly believe Romans 8 is implying that once we have the Spirit we no longer sin, no longer able to live by the flesh?

If this was even the case and we are automatically led by the Spirit, why even warn believers about living in the flesh? Marcelo is wise to ponder what Hebrews has to say about deliberate sin. It would be wise to study other scriptures about falling away, shipwrecked faith, remaining faithful, abide, led, believe.

Why tell believers this if the Spirit makes us do all these things. Did Jesus say he was going to send an enforcer or a helper.

Romans 8 just like the rest of the bible is saying if you surrender and be led by the Spirit, you are promised life. If you follow your fallen nature, you ignore your obligations, you ignore the Spirit this COULD lead to death. Basically it will be God who can see these people's hearts and will judge the heart. We can only see the backsliding of a Christian if they are not hiding it.

Just as James tells us

James 5:19-20Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

19 My brothers, if any among you strays from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his life from death and cover a multitude of sins.
I believe that all works of the flesh is sinning and all sinning brings death to us in this life but it will not touch the inner man who is in Christ. It's in the teaching and preaching of the grace of God in Christ that teaches us how to live godly.

Works of the flesh will not stop us from being one spirit with the Lord but will bring destruction and being ship-wrecked in this life for having the life of Christ that is in us from being experienced in this life.

We live by the spirit by being transformed by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

We are transformed by the renewing of our minds as Romans 2:2 says.

We live by the spirit by acknowledging every good thing that is in us in Christ. Our faith becomes "effective" - working when we acknowledge that we are the righteousness of God in Christ. We are who God says we are. That's how we live by the spirit.

Philemon 1:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

 
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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#13
I do believe that believers can live "according to the flesh" for sure but there is no condemnation from God which is what the OP is about in Romans 8:1.

"According to the flesh" and "walk in the flesh" are 2 different things although they are related.

It is interesting that the Greek word for "walk" here in Gal. 5:25 is completely different then in Romans 8:4 or in the KJV 8:1. ( It means to proceed in a row or rule )

Galatians 5:25 (NASB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.


If believers are living "according to the flesh" they will die just like in says in Romans 8:12. Take up shooting heroin in our arms and the reality of this will become apparent quickly.

There are many works of the flesh which all bring death to us in some form while in this earth. Malice and slandering bring death to us as well as living in sexual sinning or outburst of anger - actually all the works of the flesh bring death.

I believe there is much to judgment that has not been looked at thoroughly yet by the body of Christ. Jesus said that the Father judges no one and all judgment has been handled over to Him. He also said that He Himself judges no one - but the word He speaks judges.

Jesus also said that if He be lifted up on the cross - all judgment would be drawn to Him. John 12:32 ( unfortunately the KJV translators and some other translations added in "men" to the text because the word "men" is not in the text. ) Jesus is talking about judgment. All judgment is drawn to Jesus - He took all judgment.

Those that do not receive Christ will still have the wrath of God abiding on them when they stand in His presence. The wrath, judgment and vengeance of God is toward the sin that has come to destroy those He loves fiercely. These are manifestations of His love.

The sin of unbelief will be still on the person who rejects Christ. It will be a terrifying thing to be in His presence with sin still on you as in the case of the unbeliever in Christ.
See Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 11 for examples of the believer's temporal condemnation.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#14
I believe that children of God are chosen by Him for eternal life, but the following passage puzzles me a little bit:

[h=3]Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV [/h]For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Barnes commentary
For it is impossible - It is needless to say that the passage here Hebrews 6:4-6, has given occasion to much controversy, and that the opinions of commentators and of the Christian world are yet greatly divided in regard to its meaning. On the one hand, it is held that the passage is not intended to describe those who are true Christians, but only those who have been awakened and enlightened, and who then fall back; and on the other it is maintained that it refers to those who are true Christians, and who then apostatize. The contending parties have been Calvinists and Arminians; each party, in general, interpreting it according to the views which are held on the question about falling from grace. I shall endeavor, as well as I may be able, to state the true meaning of the passage by an examination of the words and phrases in detail, observing here, in general, that it seems to me that it refers to true Christians; that the object is to keep them from apostasy, and that it teaches that if they should apostatize, it would be impossible to renew them again or to save them. That it refers to true Christians will be apparent from these considerations.
(1) Such is the sense which would strike the great mass of readers. Unless there were some theory to defend, the great body of readers of the New Testament would consider the expression used here as describing true Christians.

(2) The connection demands such an interpretation. The apostle was addressing Christians. He was endeavoring to keep them from apostasy. The object was not to keep those who were awakened and enlightened from apostasy, but it was to preserve those who were already in the Church of Christ, from going back to perdition. The kind of exhortation appropriate to those who were awakened and convicted, but who were not truly converted, would be "to become converted;" not to warn them of the danger of "falling away." Besides, the apostle would not have said of such persons that they could not be converted and saved. But of sincere Christians it might be said with the utmost propriety, that they could not be renewed again and be saved if they should fall away - because they rejected the only plan of salvation after they had tried it, and renounced the only scheme of redemption after they had tasted its benefits. If that plan could not save them, what could? If they neglected that, by what other means could they be brought to God?

(3) This interpretation accords, as I suppose, with the exact meaning of the phrases which the apostle uses. An examination of those phrases will show that he refers to those who are sincere believers. The phrase "it is impossible" obviously and properly denotes absolute impossibility. It has been contended, by Storr and others, that it denotes only great difficulty. But the meaning which would at first strike all readers would be that "the thing could not be done;" that it was not merely very difficult, but absolutely impracticable. The word - ἀδύνατον adunaton - occurs only in the New Testament in the following places, in all which it denotes that the thing could not be done; Matthew 19:26; Mark 10:27, "With men this is impossible;" that is, men could not save one who was rich, implying that the thing was wholly beyond human power. Luke 18:27, "the things which are impossible with men are possible with God" - referring to the same case; Acts 14:8, "A man of Lystra, impotent in his feet;" that is, who was wholly "unable" to walk; Romans 8:3, "For what the law could not do;" what was absolutely "impossible" for the Law to accomplish; that is, to save people; Hebrews 6:18, "In which it was impossible for God to lie;" Hebrews 10:4, "It is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take away sin;" and Hebrews 11:6, "Without faith it is impossible to please God;" in all of these instances denoting absolute impossibility.

These passages show that it is not merely a great difficulty to which the apostle refers, but that he meant to say that the thing was wholly impracticable.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#15
I believe that all works of the flesh is sinning and all sinning brings death to us in this life but it will not touch the inner man who is in Christ. It's in the teaching and preaching of the grace of God in Christ that teaches us how to live godly.

Works of the flesh will not stop us from being one spirit with the Lord but will bring destruction and being ship-wrecked in this life for having the life of Christ that is in us from being experienced in this life.

We live by the spirit by being transformed by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

We are transformed by the renewing of our minds as Romans 2:2 says.

We live by the spirit by acknowledging every good thing that is in us in Christ. Our faith becomes "effective" - working when we acknowledge that we are the righteousness of God in Christ. We are who God says we are. That's how we live by the spirit.

Philemon 1:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

Death is going to happen regardless if we sin or live in the Spirit. So is scripture really suggesting the obvious that only sin brings mortal death? Mortal death is obviously going to happen so they have to be speaking of death of the soul
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#16
I believe that all works of the flesh is sinning and all sinning brings death to us in this life but it will not touch the inner man who is in Christ. It's in the teaching and preaching of the grace of God in Christ that teaches us how to live godly.

Works of the flesh will not stop us from being one spirit with the Lord but will bring destruction and being ship-wrecked in this life for having the life of Christ that is in us from being experienced in this life.

We live by the spirit by being transformed by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

We are transformed by the renewing of our minds as Romans 2:2 says.

We live by the spirit by acknowledging every good thing that is in us in Christ. Our faith becomes "effective" - working when we acknowledge that we are the righteousness of God in Christ. We are who God says we are. That's how we live by the spirit.

Philemon 1:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

Also does scripture say ship wrecked of life or faith? And if faith is what we must have to be given grace then.....
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#17
KJV
Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#18
Hebrews 6
11 Now we want each of you to demonstrate the same diligence for the final realization of your hope, 12 so that you won’t become lazy but will be imitators of those who inherit the promises through faith and perseverance.

We must remain faithful having confidence and hope for the promises that we are told to inherent if we persevere in faith.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#19
Sorry for all the posts, I get a little excited lol:rolleyes:
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#20
Death is going to happen regardless if we sin or live in the Spirit. So is scripture really suggesting the obvious that only sin brings mortal death? Mortal death is obviously going to happen so they have to be speaking of death of the soul
That is one interpretation. Everything that is contrary to the quality of God's kind of life brings death with it which includes all the various forms of the works of the flesh.

I have heard of people getting shot by a spouse when they were caught in adultery. That caused death. Soul has a few meanings in scripture - one of which means life.

Here is an example where the Greek word for "soul" is used but only it is translated as life. There are a few more examples lie this in scripture.

Matthew 2:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.