The Rapture More False Teachings
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Now -- just think about this for a moment...
Matthew 24:
[SUP]21[/SUP] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22[/SUP] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Do these verses not "imply" - very explicitly - that the 'elect' mentioned in verse 22 would be experiencing the 'great tribulation' mentioned in verse 21...?
What days are being shortened?
For whose sake are those days being shortened?
Why would it be for their sake if they were not experiencing it?
Matthew 24:
[SUP]21[/SUP] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22[/SUP] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Do these verses not "imply" - very explicitly - that the 'elect' mentioned in verse 22 would be experiencing the 'great tribulation' mentioned in verse 21...?
What days are being shortened?
For whose sake are those days being shortened?
Why would it be for their sake if they were not experiencing it?
Do you realize that the "sun, moon, and stars" thing is talking about the 'trumpet' events - which occur over a period of 3.5 years?
G
The 'seals' are already "playing out"... And - there is some 'overlap' of the 'seals'...
The opening of a seal is like opening a 'viewport' into time-and-events. In 'event' terms, a 'seal' is not the same type of thing as the 'trumpets' and 'vials'.
The 6th seal and 7th seal actually overlap, in terms of the events involved.
It does not work like falling dominoes...
The opening of a seal is like opening a 'viewport' into time-and-events. In 'event' terms, a 'seal' is not the same type of thing as the 'trumpets' and 'vials'.
The 6th seal and 7th seal actually overlap, in terms of the events involved.
It does not work like falling dominoes...
G
Something to consider:
I believe all of these verses are talking about the same thing:
Matthew 24:29
Mark 13:24-25
Luke 21:25-26
Acts 2:20
Revelation 6:12-13
Revelation 8:12
I believe this verse to be a "short description" of the Trumpet Events -- which the Two Witness actually bring about by their prophetic testimony:
Revelation 11:6
Now -- look at Trumpet 4 again.
Now -- back to the first two verses mentioned:
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Matthew 24[/TD]
[TD]Mark 13[/TD]
[TD]Notes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days[/TD]
[TD]24 But in those days, after that tribulation,[/TD]
[TD]After the End of the Great Tribulation[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[/TD]
[TD]the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.[/TD]
[TD]During the Trumpet Events
Two Witnesses[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[/TD]
[TD]26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.[/TD]
[TD]Jesus[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
~ Great Tribulation
~ Two Witnesses ( 3.5 years )
~ Jesus
It is not the return of Jesus that marks the end of the GT -- it is the Two Witnesses...
Matthew 24:29
Mark 13:24-25
Luke 21:25-26
Acts 2:20
Revelation 6:12-13
Revelation 8:12
I believe this verse to be a "short description" of the Trumpet Events -- which the Two Witness actually bring about by their prophetic testimony:
Revelation 11:6
Now -- look at Trumpet 4 again.
Now -- back to the first two verses mentioned:
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Matthew 24[/TD]
[TD]Mark 13[/TD]
[TD]Notes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days[/TD]
[TD]24 But in those days, after that tribulation,[/TD]
[TD]After the End of the Great Tribulation[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[/TD]
[TD]the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.[/TD]
[TD]During the Trumpet Events
Two Witnesses[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[/TD]
[TD]26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.[/TD]
[TD]Jesus[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
~ Great Tribulation
~ Two Witnesses ( 3.5 years )
~ Jesus
It is not the return of Jesus that marks the end of the GT -- it is the Two Witnesses...
M
The souls under the altar are Tribulation Saints of the past. ( mostly 50+ million from the Dark Ages )
Those "that should be killed as they were" are Tribulation Saints of the future. ( millions? billions? )
We are in the Great Tribulation period NOW.
It started ~70 A.D. and will end at some point in the future.
It will get much worse before it ends; the worst is yet to come.
Those "that should be killed as they were" are Tribulation Saints of the future. ( millions? billions? )
We are in the Great Tribulation period NOW.
It started ~70 A.D. and will end at some point in the future.
It will get much worse before it ends; the worst is yet to come.
G
It is --- it really is... ( certainly, at least, compared to that gif you posted )
It is only made complex in the minds of people who will not open their eyes to the simple truth of the scriptures...
For example, there are no gaps in the 70 weeks of Daniel. It is pure straight-forward simplicity in the scriptures. Only in the mind of men does it become more complex.
( certainly, at least, compared to that gif you posted )It is only made complex in the minds of people who will not open their eyes to the simple truth of the scriptures...
For example, there are no gaps in the 70 weeks of Daniel. It is pure straight-forward simplicity in the scriptures. Only in the mind of men does it become more complex.
Those who proclaim 'pre-trib' to be false are simply trying to warn sleeping Christians to wake up.
Revelation 6:
[SUP]9[/SUP] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: [SUP]10[/SUP] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [SUP]11[/SUP] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
The souls under the altar are Tribulation Saints of the past. ( mostly 50+ million from the Dark Ages )
Those "that should be killed as they were" are Tribulation Saints of the future. ( millions? billions? )
We are in the Great Tribulation period NOW.
It started ~70 A.D. and will end at some point in the future.
It will get much worse before it ends; the worst is yet to come.
Revelation 6:
[SUP]9[/SUP] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: [SUP]10[/SUP] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [SUP]11[/SUP] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
The souls under the altar are Tribulation Saints of the past. ( mostly 50+ million from the Dark Ages )
Those "that should be killed as they were" are Tribulation Saints of the future. ( millions? billions? )
We are in the Great Tribulation period NOW.
It started ~70 A.D. and will end at some point in the future.
It will get much worse before it ends; the worst is yet to come.
G
BTW --- you left out "How long, O Lord, holy and true, "...
( significant 'detail' that suggests that "it has not been a short time" )
Also - the "inexactness" of the phrase "on them that dwell on the earth" tells us something...
It does not say:
"on the particular person who wielded the weapon that killed me"
Think about it...
The notion concerning "who killed them" in the present tense cannot be assumed from the context of that passage.
( significant 'detail' that suggests that "it has not been a short time" )
Also - the "inexactness" of the phrase "on them that dwell on the earth" tells us something...
It does not say:
"on the particular person who wielded the weapon that killed me"
Think about it...
The notion concerning "who killed them" in the present tense cannot be assumed from the context of that passage.
G
I consider the blue-dot gif to be "innocent fun", and I am not offended. I even thought it was funny. ( My skin is not that thin... )
I just don't like to be "railed upon" and belittled for simply having a different opinion. No one does.
I always try to ask the questions and make the statements that will encourage people to think and reason for themselves.
I always try to "lay it out there where they can pick it up" -- without trying to force it upon them.
I usually try not to get into 'stand-offs' with others unless I think that they are displaying an 'attitude' sufficient to warrant it - just to place a mirror in front of them to help them see what they look like - or some similar thing.
I try my best to never "attack", "insult", or "belittle" anyone -- for, that is "personal" -- and, there is simply no cause for that on a site where Christian brothers and sisters should be having good fellowship - especially in these last days...
I may at times "reprove" someone if I deem it to be warranted, but I always try to focus on the "what they did" that I believe crossed the line -- not - personal 'attributes' - like - their ability to think for themselves.
Now -- I am not perfect by any means. I have my "struggles" like everyone else. But -- there are several people on here who know me well enough by now ( I think ) - that can attest to the fact that I am [ at least ] "a fairly 'decent' guy"...
My personal beliefs aside, most people on here probably do not have any "disagreements" with me.
I have been here longer than my current account suggests. This is [ technically ] my third. ( 'GRA' once and 'GaryA' twice ) There are people here who have known me for something like five years ( or more ). They ( even the ones who might be inclined to say something 'negative' about me if you asked them about me ) would probably attest to the fact that what I am saying in this post is true -- that I respect the site staff and the other members, that I never talk to any female ( or male either, really ) in a way that is "personally inappropriate" - things like that...
Discussions may become 'candid', 'deep', 'funny', 'tense', or whatever. I always try to keep what I say in my posts centered on the topic of discussion -- and never let it get [ too ] 'personal' - never actually target the person.
As we discuss our topics with 'fervor', let us not loose sight of the fact that the people with whom we are discussing those topics are [ hopefully ] our brothers and sisters in Christ.
We need each other more than ever - in these last days. Right?
I try to live by the Golden Rule. And, I try my best to "forgive and forget"...
In "real life" and on the internet.
I do not "hold grudges" against other members.
General Rule: New Thread, Clean Slate
( I "treat" the discussion in each thread separately. I can be in heavy at-your-throat 'dispute' with someone in one thread while "laughing and cutting up" with the same person in another thread -- at the same time. WOW. Yes - I can do that. )
I do not put them on 'Ignore'. ( I can handle it. ( I am not criticizing anyone who does; it is just not my way of doing things. ) )
I try not to make reference to any post that any member makes in a Forum that cannot be seen by non-logged-in members. Those Forums are 'invisible' for a reason.
{ I have said enough. You get the idea. }
Besides ( snicker ), I took your 'lemonade' and opened a lemonade stand...
I just don't like to be "railed upon" and belittled for simply having a different opinion. No one does.
I always try to ask the questions and make the statements that will encourage people to think and reason for themselves.
I always try to "lay it out there where they can pick it up" -- without trying to force it upon them.
I usually try not to get into 'stand-offs' with others unless I think that they are displaying an 'attitude' sufficient to warrant it - just to place a mirror in front of them to help them see what they look like - or some similar thing.
I try my best to never "attack", "insult", or "belittle" anyone -- for, that is "personal" -- and, there is simply no cause for that on a site where Christian brothers and sisters should be having good fellowship - especially in these last days...
I may at times "reprove" someone if I deem it to be warranted, but I always try to focus on the "what they did" that I believe crossed the line -- not - personal 'attributes' - like - their ability to think for themselves.
Now -- I am not perfect by any means. I have my "struggles" like everyone else. But -- there are several people on here who know me well enough by now ( I think ) - that can attest to the fact that I am [ at least ] "a fairly 'decent' guy"...
My personal beliefs aside, most people on here probably do not have any "disagreements" with me.
I have been here longer than my current account suggests. This is [ technically ] my third. ( 'GRA' once and 'GaryA' twice ) There are people here who have known me for something like five years ( or more ). They ( even the ones who might be inclined to say something 'negative' about me if you asked them about me ) would probably attest to the fact that what I am saying in this post is true -- that I respect the site staff and the other members, that I never talk to any female ( or male either, really ) in a way that is "personally inappropriate" - things like that...
Discussions may become 'candid', 'deep', 'funny', 'tense', or whatever. I always try to keep what I say in my posts centered on the topic of discussion -- and never let it get [ too ] 'personal' - never actually target the person.
As we discuss our topics with 'fervor', let us not loose sight of the fact that the people with whom we are discussing those topics are [ hopefully ] our brothers and sisters in Christ.
We need each other more than ever - in these last days. Right?
I try to live by the Golden Rule. And, I try my best to "forgive and forget"...
In "real life" and on the internet.
I do not "hold grudges" against other members.
General Rule: New Thread, Clean Slate
( I "treat" the discussion in each thread separately. I can be in heavy at-your-throat 'dispute' with someone in one thread while "laughing and cutting up" with the same person in another thread -- at the same time. WOW.
Yes - I can do that. )I do not put them on 'Ignore'. ( I can handle it. ( I am not criticizing anyone who does; it is just not my way of doing things. ) )
I try not to make reference to any post that any member makes in a Forum that cannot be seen by non-logged-in members. Those Forums are 'invisible' for a reason.
{ I have said enough. You get the idea. }
Besides ( snicker ), I took your 'lemonade' and opened a lemonade stand...
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Who do you suppose those "that should be killed as they were" are?
Jesus gave them their White Robes, so they are deemed of God just like the Church in Heaven, but they must wait for the Seven Year period to end before they are raised from the dead, of course, when Jesus Returns (Rev. 19). Jesus told them to wait until their Fellowservants should be KILLED ALSO, meaning the Anti-Christ is not finished with his murderous ways yet, the time is not up. It is the 5TH SEAL, then we have two more Seals, Seven Trumpets and Seven Vials yet to come.
So Jesus tells them to wait, they have more brothers who will be killed also before the Anti-Christs reign of terror is up.
That is all that means.....After Jesus returns then the Judgment Seats are set up.....20:4, and the Beheaded are officially made whole.
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BTW --- you left out "How long, O Lord, holy and true, "...
( significant 'detail' that suggests that "it has not been a short time" )
Also - the "inexactness" of the phrase "on them that dwell on the earth" tells us something...
It does not say:
"on the particular person who wielded the weapon that killed me"
Think about it...
The notion concerning "who killed them" in the present tense cannot be assumed from the context of that passage.
( significant 'detail' that suggests that "it has not been a short time" )
Also - the "inexactness" of the phrase "on them that dwell on the earth" tells us something...
It does not say:
"on the particular person who wielded the weapon that killed me"
Think about it...
The notion concerning "who killed them" in the present tense cannot be assumed from the context of that passage.
Those ON EARTH killed them. Thus it is not Christians of old because people on earth NOW couldn't have killed them. That's my point brother.
P
I consider the blue-dot gif to be "innocent fun", and I am not offended. I even thought it was funny. ( My skin is not that thin... )
I just don't like to be "railed upon" and belittled for simply having a different opinion. No one does.
I always try to ask the questions and make the statements that will encourage people to think and reason for themselves.
I always try to "lay it out there where they can pick it up" -- without trying to force it upon them.
I usually try not to get into 'stand-offs' with others unless I think that they are displaying an 'attitude' sufficient to warrant it - just to place a mirror in front of them to help them see what they look like - or some similar thing.
I try my best to never "attack", "insult", or "belittle" anyone -- for, that is "personal" -- and, there is simply no cause for that on a site where Christian brothers and sisters should be having good fellowship - especially in these last days...
I may at times "reprove" someone if I deem it to be warranted, but I always try to focus on the "what they did" that I believe crossed the line -- not - personal 'attributes' - like - their ability to think for themselves.
Now -- I am not perfect by any means. I have my "struggles" like everyone else. But -- there are several people on here who know me well enough by now ( I think ) - that can attest to the fact that I am [ at least ] "a fairly 'decent' guy"...
My personal beliefs aside, most people on here probably do not have any "disagreements" with me.
I have been here longer than my current account suggests. This is [ technically ] my third. ( 'GRA' once and 'GaryA' twice ) There are people here who have known me for something like five years ( or more ). They ( even the ones who might be inclined to say something 'negative' about me if you asked them about me ) would probably attest to the fact that what I am saying in this post is true -- that I respect the site staff and the other members, that I never talk to any female ( or male either, really ) in a way that is "personally inappropriate" - things like that...
Discussions may become 'candid', 'deep', 'funny', 'tense', or whatever. I always try to keep what I say in my posts centered on the topic of discussion -- and never let it get [ too ] 'personal' - never actually target the person.
As we discuss our topics with 'fervor', let us not loose sight of the fact that the people with whom we are discussing those topics are [ hopefully ] our brothers and sisters in Christ.
We need each other more than ever - in these last days. Right?
I try to live by the Golden Rule. And, I try my best to "forgive and forget"...
In "real life" and on the internet.
I do not "hold grudges" against other members.
General Rule: New Thread, Clean Slate
( I "treat" the discussion in each thread separately. I can be in heavy at-your-throat 'dispute' with someone in one thread while "laughing and cutting up" with the same person in another thread -- at the same time. WOW. Yes - I can do that. )
I do not put them on 'Ignore'. ( I can handle it. ( I am not criticizing anyone who does; it is just not my way of doing things. ) )
I try not to make reference to any post that any member makes in a Forum that cannot be seen by non-logged-in members. Those Forums are 'invisible' for a reason.
{ I have said enough. You get the idea. }
Besides ( snicker ), I took your 'lemonade' and opened a lemonade stand...
I just don't like to be "railed upon" and belittled for simply having a different opinion. No one does.
I always try to ask the questions and make the statements that will encourage people to think and reason for themselves.
I always try to "lay it out there where they can pick it up" -- without trying to force it upon them.
I usually try not to get into 'stand-offs' with others unless I think that they are displaying an 'attitude' sufficient to warrant it - just to place a mirror in front of them to help them see what they look like - or some similar thing.
I try my best to never "attack", "insult", or "belittle" anyone -- for, that is "personal" -- and, there is simply no cause for that on a site where Christian brothers and sisters should be having good fellowship - especially in these last days...
I may at times "reprove" someone if I deem it to be warranted, but I always try to focus on the "what they did" that I believe crossed the line -- not - personal 'attributes' - like - their ability to think for themselves.
Now -- I am not perfect by any means. I have my "struggles" like everyone else. But -- there are several people on here who know me well enough by now ( I think ) - that can attest to the fact that I am [ at least ] "a fairly 'decent' guy"...
My personal beliefs aside, most people on here probably do not have any "disagreements" with me.
I have been here longer than my current account suggests. This is [ technically ] my third. ( 'GRA' once and 'GaryA' twice ) There are people here who have known me for something like five years ( or more ). They ( even the ones who might be inclined to say something 'negative' about me if you asked them about me ) would probably attest to the fact that what I am saying in this post is true -- that I respect the site staff and the other members, that I never talk to any female ( or male either, really ) in a way that is "personally inappropriate" - things like that...
Discussions may become 'candid', 'deep', 'funny', 'tense', or whatever. I always try to keep what I say in my posts centered on the topic of discussion -- and never let it get [ too ] 'personal' - never actually target the person.
As we discuss our topics with 'fervor', let us not loose sight of the fact that the people with whom we are discussing those topics are [ hopefully ] our brothers and sisters in Christ.
We need each other more than ever - in these last days. Right?
I try to live by the Golden Rule. And, I try my best to "forgive and forget"...
In "real life" and on the internet.
I do not "hold grudges" against other members.
General Rule: New Thread, Clean Slate
( I "treat" the discussion in each thread separately. I can be in heavy at-your-throat 'dispute' with someone in one thread while "laughing and cutting up" with the same person in another thread -- at the same time. WOW.
Yes - I can do that. )I do not put them on 'Ignore'. ( I can handle it. ( I am not criticizing anyone who does; it is just not my way of doing things. ) )
I try not to make reference to any post that any member makes in a Forum that cannot be seen by non-logged-in members. Those Forums are 'invisible' for a reason.
{ I have said enough. You get the idea. }
Besides ( snicker ), I took your 'lemonade' and opened a lemonade stand...
Very nice to see such a Godly attitude.
We can all learn something from your character.
I have read not one mention of any such thing as a Rapture not one. I have read of the Lord's return which will happen after the antichrist has had his turn. To think God has to remove anyone from his wrath is BUNK. He will protect us from his wrath just as he has protected his children from all the other tribulation past. He is able. How miss-understood.
Maybe you should try READING the Scriptures provided, rather than ignoring them so you can make such a silly and ignorant statement as that?
The rest of your comment is just plain silly
But, hey, The Word says there will be those left behind............sorry you will be one of them...........I don't think you will enjoy what happens then...........as for me and my house, we will be with the Lord............
The rest of your comment is just plain silly
But, hey, The Word says there will be those left behind............sorry you will be one of them...........I don't think you will enjoy what happens then...........as for me and my house, we will be with the Lord............
Those who proclaim 'pre-trib' to be false are simply trying to warn sleeping Christians to wake up.
Revelation 6:
[SUP]9[/SUP] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: [SUP]10[/SUP] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [SUP]11[/SUP] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
The souls under the altar are Tribulation Saints of the past. ( mostly 50+ million from the Dark Ages )
Those "that should be killed as they were" are Tribulation Saints of the future. ( millions? billions? )
We are in the Great Tribulation period NOW.
It started ~70 A.D. and will end at some point in the future.
It will get much worse before it ends; the worst is yet to come.
Revelation 6:
[SUP]9[/SUP] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: [SUP]10[/SUP] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [SUP]11[/SUP] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
The souls under the altar are Tribulation Saints of the past. ( mostly 50+ million from the Dark Ages )
Those "that should be killed as they were" are Tribulation Saints of the future. ( millions? billions? )
We are in the Great Tribulation period NOW.
It started ~70 A.D. and will end at some point in the future.
It will get much worse before it ends; the worst is yet to come.
Good Morning Stephen63,
As I continue to say, when people say things like GaryA did "we are in the great tribulation period now" they have no understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. If we're in the great tribulation right now, it's not affecting my life whatsoever. When it does take place, it will be what Jesus said it would be, "a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been shortened, no one would be left alive."
During that time, no one will have to ask, "has the wrath of God started?" It will all be too terribly apparent for those on the earth during that time.
They don't pay attention to that fact that, with just the 4th seal and 6th trumpet alone there will be about half the earth's population killed. And that is not including trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor the fatalities as a result of the bowl judgments.
As I continue to say, when people say things like GaryA did "we are in the great tribulation period now" they have no understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. If we're in the great tribulation right now, it's not affecting my life whatsoever. When it does take place, it will be what Jesus said it would be, "a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been shortened, no one would be left alive."
During that time, no one will have to ask, "has the wrath of God started?" It will all be too terribly apparent for those on the earth during that time.
They don't pay attention to that fact that, with just the 4th seal and 6th trumpet alone there will be about half the earth's population killed. And that is not including trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor the fatalities as a result of the bowl judgments.
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