The Rapture More False Teachings

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J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
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#81
Daniel 9:27 He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering cease; and in their place shall be an abomination that desolates, until the decreed end is poured out upon the desolator.”


There is no problem here.
 
Aug 25, 2016
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#82
Antichrist time will be 5 months. And no one person will suffer persecution more than 10 days. As it is written.
 
G

GaryA

Guest
#83
Daniel 11 & 12 refer to Antiochus Epiphanes.
Yes!


Daniel 9 refers to the Romans.
Yes! ( i.e. - with regard to 70 A.D. )


In a sense Jesus references all 3 verses,
In a sense - yes; however,...


but in particular it is Daniel 9 that he refers to.
No.

This is where we differ in opinion.

The 'key' to understanding Matthew 24:15 is actually in the phrase at the end:

"( whoso readeth, let him understand: )"

Matthew 24:15 contains a "direct reference" to the activities of Antiochus Epiphanes, and an "indirect reference" to the ativities of Rome / Titus.

The 'reference' ( itself ) that Jesus makes in Matthew 24 is specifically pointing to the Daniel 11 & 12 'definition' of:

"abomination that maketh desolate"

The phrase "and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate" in Daniel 9:27 is not specifically and particularly referring to the "abomination that maketh desolate" that Daniel 11 & 12 refer to.

Please see post #80.


There is no problem here.
The problem [ "here" ] is a bad translation... ;)

:)
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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#84
Most everyone is aware that there have NOT been flying scorpions,hailstones of fire, and a worldwide mark requirement.

So,never has been a GT described in rev.

You need to read the segment "......such as has never been,or ever will..."

Then re - evaluate
The things in Rev you mentioned, are they found in the Olivet as well? Did Jesus discuss flying scorpions and the mark of the beast? Did Jesus even use the word, "beast" in any of the Olivet versions? Why then do you assume the things John discribed are the same as the Great Tribulation which Jesus discussed? The only time John says "great tribulation" was in Rev 7 when he discussed the great multitude which came out of great tribulation. "Great tribulation" simply means, "great suffering or trials."

When Jesus told the disciples that there would be "[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." He was clearly discussing the events of 70 AD to soon follow. There was never before, nor will there ever be after a period of suffering like this for any nation.

When John records this in Rev 7, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation..." he is discussing all those who suffered and died for Christ. It is unclear if this group died over the course of centuries or in a short period of time. What is clear is that they are NOT the same group when Jesus discussed in the Olivet.

Jesus told His followers to "Flee Judea." This means this period of great tribulation happened only in Judea, just like the War of 70 AD. Those that suffered back then were non-believers. They were being punished. Those in Rev 7 are believers, clearly. They are two totally separate groups.
 
Dec 2, 2016
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#85
Hi Ron: You said that those under the alter became Christians after the rapture? According to pre-trib the rapture occurs and all the Christians are gone, the Antichrist takes over and causes all the world to take the mark of the Beast. So you have a word with no Christians in it(according to pre-trib) only those who have the mark of the Beast. So where are those Christians coming from who will become Christians after the rapture? I have never heard of anyone becoming a Christian without first being witnessed to by a Christian, if all the Christians went in the rapture then who is to witness to those people so they will accept Christ and refuse the mark of the Beast?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#86
It's all quite simple. If you look below, you can see Gary's explanations in illustrated form. OK, OK - Just having a chuckle. No ill will intended. Feel free to return fire. I deserve it. But anyway, seriously, in looking at a sampling of 5 or 6 of your posts, Gary...I just can't BELIEVE the complexity you are introducing. Your artificially-manufactured complexity makes Ahwatukee's artificially-manufactured complexity look like child's play. Ahwa needs to sit at the feet of the master and take notes.

Why am I having a flash back to the 80's and one of those trips where I never left the farm?
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
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#87
Antichrist time will be 5 months. And no one person will suffer persecution more than 10 days. As it is written.

How do you get 5 months out of

42 months
or
3.5 years
or
1260 days
 
P

popeye

Guest
#88
Antichrist time will be 5 months. And no one person will suffer persecution more than 10 days. As it is written.
What verses are you basing this on?
 
G

GaryA

Guest
#90

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
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#92
The sooner people realize that the Great Tribulation of Mat 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, happened in AD 70, the better.

No, clearly not happened yet.

Matthew 24:21-22: "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened"
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
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#93
So much celebrating of wrath in these anti pre-trib/rapture threads :eek:

I've shared scriptures on this for as long as I've been a member on here.

One only needs to look at God's purpose for the Great tribulation, to see it...
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
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#94
No, clearly not happened yet.

Matthew 24:21-22: "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened"
Hi Katy-follower,

If the great tribulation had already taken place as PlainWord has proclaimed, it would have been a terribly weak fulfillment of it being a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. Not to mention that if those days had been allowed to go on any longer no one would be left alive on the earth.

People who hold to this interpretation have a very weak understanding of God's coming wrath. Once the church has been removed and God's wrath begins, this world is going to be a chaotic mess. And by the time Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, this world will literally be in shambles. All of the seas and fresh water will have been turned into literal blood, the cities of the nations will have collapsed, the mountains and islands will disappear, people will have been tormented for five months with stings like scorpions by those demonic beings that are released out of the Abyss, a third of the earths population is killed by those four angels and their army of 200 million, Satan and his angels will be cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth, etc., etc. They have no idea of the horrors that are coming upon this earth. It's no wonder they believe that the church is going to be here, because their version of God's time of wrath is a tea party.

By the time the Lord returns to the earth, my questimation is that there will be less than 10% of the current population of the earth and that is being generous.
 
P

popeye

Guest
#95
Hi Katy-follower,

If the great tribulation had already taken place as PlainWord has proclaimed, it would have been a terribly weak fulfillment of it being a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. Not to mention that if those days had been allowed to go on any longer no one would be left alive on the earth.

People who hold to this interpretation have a very weak understanding of God's coming wrath. Once the church has been removed and God's wrath begins, this world is going to be a chaotic mess. And by the time Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, this world will literally be in shambles. All of the seas and fresh water will have been turned into literal blood, the cities of the nations will have collapsed, the mountains and islands will disappear, people will have been tormented for five months with stings like scorpions by those demonic beings that are released out of the Abyss, a third of the earths population is killed by those four angels and their army of 200 million, Satan and his angels will be cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth, etc., etc. They have no idea of the horrors that are coming upon this earth. It's no wonder they believe that the church is going to be here, because their version of God's time of wrath is a tea party.

By the time the Lord returns to the earth, my questimation is that there will be less than 10% of the current population of the earth and that is being generous.
I swear if postribs ever actually check things out they can stop wasting their time on the rabbit trails other men have carried them down.
 
P

popeye

Guest
#96
So much celebrating of wrath in these anti pre-trib/rapture threads :eek:

I've shared scriptures on this for as long as I've been a member on here.

One only needs to look at God's purpose for the Great tribulation, to see it...
True.

Their glaring error is in their centering on the GT.

Ironically that dynamic has them mis reading what the thing is there for,and who it is that God seeks to bring into repentance.
 
Dec 2, 2016
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#97
Hey 17: Some folks have sunk so low so that they have actually CHANGED the bible so that it agrees with their agenda(not meaning you). That interpretation you gave is an example of it. This area has been studied greatly, it is , he shall CONFIRM THE COVENANT with the many. Confirming the covenant means that the covenant in question was ALREADY in place and the HE simply confirmed that covenant.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#98
I swear if postribs ever actually check things out they can stop wasting their time on the rabbit trails other men have carried them down.
The great tribulation happened in 70 AD and we are all still here. The GT of Israel ended with the destruction of the temple and the end of the Mosaic age. Christ "returned" as the temple was on fire and He used the Roman solders to execute judgment upon the evil and adulterous generation. I put "returned" in quotes because if you look at the actual question in the Greek, you will see that it dealt with His presence and not His coming back to earth.

Your presence.jpg

70 AD was the tipping point. It was when the kingdom age completely replaced the Mosaic law. The temple had to be destroyed along with its sacrifices and priestly rituals as they no longer were valid for atonement. Only the Blood of the Lamb is now able to atone for sins. We are now living in the Church age or Messianic age if you will.

Because this concept is not understood, that being the timing and purpose of the great tribulation, all kinds of weird theories have popped up leading some down the rabbit hole, as you say.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
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#99
What gets me with the dispensationalists is they quote this:

"Pray that you may be accounted worthy to escape all that is about to happen"

Then have the cheek to project something that is about to happen 1900 years into the future.

If I say I'm about to serve lunch and it doesn't appear for 1900 years I'm sure you'd be a bit miffed..:p
LOL I would be more than miffed I reckon. How I understand it is that the ''end of the age'' is not referring to the second coming but to the end of the old covenant age. Jesus kept referring to ''this generation'' in the Gospels and predicted the destruction of the Temple. Many of the signs he mentioned in Matthew 24 did happen within the lifetimes of the generation he was speaking to including that destruction. Jesus was asked by his Disciples when the kingdom would be restored to Israel. He replied that it was not for them to know when but that they should preach the Gospel to all nations. If the end of the age was about his second coming he could have made it plain to them but he didn't. The second coming followed by the Millenium is still future.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
LOL I would be more than miffed I reckon. How I understand it is that the ''end of the age'' is not referring to the second coming but to the end of the old covenant age. Jesus kept referring to ''this generation'' in the Gospels and predicted the destruction of the Temple. Many of the signs he mentioned in Matthew 24 did happen within the lifetimes of the generation he was speaking to including that destruction. Jesus was asked by his Disciples when the kingdom would be restored to Israel. He replied that it was not for them to know when but that they should preach the Gospel to all nations. If the end of the age was about his second coming he could have made it plain to them but he didn't. The second coming followed by the Millenium is still future.
Loved this whole post until the last sentence. This is a pretty new revelation for me but this already happened.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This "coming" of Christ was His Parousia or presence. This happened in 70 AD. The Wrath of the Lamb is over. We are in the millennium now.