Why I now believe in Predistination/Election

[Sully]

Why have you come after me?

Haha. That's one way to play it.

 

[Laish]

Well we are curious what will you do troll?

Yea that's it ! When you can't pound the facts you pound the table, an stoop to attacking a fellow brother.
Please try dialogue .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Spokenpassage]

The last time I was here, I was still in that "cage-stage." Since then, I have no favor in debating unless there is a genuine dialogue between opinions and sides.

 

[Sully]

Yea that's it ! When you can't pound the facts you pound the table, an stoop to attacking a fellow brother.
Please try dialogue .
Blessings
Bill

You act like I use the term troll loosely. I dont

 

[wsblind]

Then why were they invited?

DARN. I never thought of it that way. And what a GOOD/GREAT/LOGICAL/SCRIPTURAL Way to make a point!!!!!!

What good is an invitation if one cannot accept it?

 

[Stephen63]

You haven't so no worries.



Repent then, and believe the Gospel because yours, by that rule, is under question.

The whosoever's are the elect and I always love the pretense, ignorance and presumption that somewhow this word undoes the Doctrines of Grace and the fact of Sovereign election.

The fact that God so loved the world is understood in the fact this was perplexing to the Jew, especially seen in the one who had written this. God didn't just love the Jews, He loved the world, or, in other words those elect who are not Jewish.

As much as you try, you cannot get "the world" to mean "the elect"

 

[Laish]

You act like I use the term troll loosely. I dont

intresting I was talking about having a discussion. Then you sidestep point of the post with your above comment.
I will ask kindly again. Please try dialogue.
Blessings
Bill

 

[wsblind]

As much as you try, you cannot get "the world" to mean "the elect"

Holy shift. I agree!!!!!!!

 

[preacher4truth]

As much as you try, you cannot get "the world" to mean "the elect"

Even a cursory study of the phrase "the world" shows it doesn't refer to each and every person whoever lived.

I gave you the proper sense of the meaning, and returned to you the rule you applied; that it is in fact you who should be questioning your own salvation: You don't grasp John 3:16.

The bottom line is you hate God's plan, hate His Sovereign electing grace, and hate the fact that Him loving "the world" meant, in context, those who were not only Jews, but other. He has chosen, and He has passed over many. His atonement is limited to His people; Matthew 1:21.

And it is noted, you have no exegesis at all, only ridicule veiled in presumption and tradition. Grow up.

 

[Sully]

intresting I was talking about having a discussion. Then you sidestep point of the post with your above comment.
I will ask kindly again. Please try dialogue.
Blessings
Bill

I appreciate your integrity and agree with you. However, please understand there are those who are not what they portray. All good here. That's what the ignore feature is there for.

 

[wsblind]

Even a cursory study of the phrase "the world" shows it doesn't refer to each and every person whoever lived.

I gave you the proper sense of the meaning, and returned to you the rule you applied; that it is in fact you who should be questioning your own salvation: You don't grasp John 3:16.

The bottom line is you hate God's plan, hate His Sovereign electing grace, and hate the fact that Him loving "the world" meant, in context, those who were not only Jews, but other. He has chosen, and He has passed over many. His atonement is limited to His people; Matthew 1:21.

And it is noted, you have no exegesis at all, only ridicule veiled in presumption and tradition. Grow up.

You have no exegesis. Just eisegesis.

New American Standard Bible
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.


Only someone who is reading INTO the scriptures from their own "theology" would say," Well the 'world' means the elect scattered all over the land."

 

[wsblind]

The bottom line is you hate God's plan, hate His Sovereign electing grace,

No. I hate YOUR sovereign electing grace.

Gods Grace is righteous electing Grace. He, in His Sovereignty, chose to save people in His RIGHTEOUSNESS/JUSTICE.

Berean Study Bible
For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
King James Bible
O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

New American Standard Bible
Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved; He will judge the peoples with equity.
New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.

 

[DJ2]

The non-Christian will be guilty for their sin. None of us deserves to be saved, you agree? All deserves to be punished, do you agree? So is God obligated to save anyone? No. Is God in the wrong to save a few? No, we all deserve the same sentence.

But what about the question?

 

[Utah]

I have not been on this chat in 3 years but I felt heavily compelled in my heart to write this today.


I have always struggled to make sense of the predestination verses. (Romans 8: 29-30, Matthew 11:27, Psalm 65:4, Romans 9, etc.) To make sense of it I tried to think that God chose people to be saved based of knowing the future and seeing people choosing Him, hence the “foreknowing” but now I know how flawed that way of thinking is. In regards to free will I used to think how God made the way of salvation clear and just waited for us to accept like a gift. I now know how flawed that way of thinking is as well.


Yes, these predestination verses helped me to better understand but I still fought against it because I didn’t want to believe that God would choose some and not others. Ultimately I wanted to believe that I had a choice. How selfish and prideful I was to think that way.


It was not a verse about predestination that opened the door to the truth but actually verses about our utter depravity of sin:
Psalm 53:2-3
God looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.



I have read these verses before but about 1-2 years ago these verses really hit home to how sinful I really am. We always want to find some kind of good in us, some kind of tiny little ray of light (even if it’s the act of choosing God) and to show God saying, “Look, I did this! I chose You!”


Ultimately that is pride. It is us trying to believe that we are capable of goodness outside of Christ. In reality that is not possible. Even as Christians we are filled with sin: our actions, out thoughts, even our prayers are tainted with sin. There is no escape, no explaining away, and no changing it. We are filled with sin at all times.


In addition, because we are always filled with sin, our base nature is to reject anything that is of Christ. We were born into rebellion and live on in ultimate rebellion before becoming a Christian. It is impossible for anything in us to choose the salvation of Christ. No matter how free, wonderful, loving etc…..it is impossible. Our sin nature would never allow it. Evil would never choose its destruction which is Christ.


That is how I finally realized that predestination makes sense. Because it is literally the ONLY way that I would ever “choose” salvation. It is the Spirit of God that has given me the desire for Jesus, and it is His Spirit that has given me the power to “choose” Him.


Yes, at the age of eight, I remember making a conscience decision to accept His salvation through faith. I remember my fear of my sin and hell, desiring His love, of wanting a Father. I remember choosing Him. But I have come to realize that these desires for Him were not of myself but of His Spirit through me. I had no say in the matter.
Then how do I marriage the two facts that I consciously chose Him but also knowing that it is only God that would give me the desire to chose Him to begin with?


I don’t know. Any you know what? I am ok with that. I trust God that He knows how it works and that gives me peace. Confusion is not always a bad thing. Sometimes you just have to lay it at the feet of Jesus and say, “Lord, You know.”
There is song that I have found by a Christian rapper named Shai Linne called “Election”. I highly recommend you give it a listen as it explains Election/Predestination quite well. I know you might have heard how free will is like someone who is floating out at sea and salvation is God throwing a rope at us and all we have to do is grab it. There is a part of this song that explains how flawed that line of thinking is:


“Some people say that we were drowning in the ocean
Barely floating until God threw us the rope then
Our free will helped us as we groped
Our faith is the hand that grabbed the rope and God put us back in the boat
Nope! Without apology I deny that analogy
Reality- we were dead at the bottom of the sea
I was a swollen corpse with hope no more
Until Jehovah the LORD dove from the shore to the ocean floor
Yeah, I was a corpse and I smelled like it
I’ll keep it simple, why did God choose me? Because He felt like it!
He brought me out, not an act of my volition
Breathed life into my lungs and didn’t ask for my permission”


I was a corpse at the bottom of the ocean. I could not grab that rope nor would I ever want to even if I could.


Honestly, I so glad that I had no say in my salvation. How awful would it be that God had to depend on our choice? That is like stripping power out of God’s hands and placing it in ours. Knowing how utterly sinful and disgusting I am, I am so thankful that it could only be by the grace of God that I could ever be saved. Depending on myself to accomplish any type of good is horrifying because I know that I am not capable of producing any good at all outside of Christ.


Lord Jesus, thank You!


I apologize for this being so long haha. It was just on my heart all morning as I was cleaning the house.

Then why share the Gospel? Folks will meet their fate regardless.

 

[Utah]

Reincarnation is in fact Biblical.

Christians have been duped into believing it's not.

God calls it "The Mystery of Iniquity".

Hell is a Parable of the Womb...

Psalm 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"

This is why Jesus went to 'Hell' to preach.

He either went to give hope to the unborn or perhaps give them advice for avoiding their previous mistakes.

So many questions can be answered if folks would just see this simple Truth.

I don't wish to derail the thread, which is why I'm trying to be subtle.

I will make a thread about this one day when I have more time to debate.

Houston, we have a problem.

 

[samuel23]

Hi Ash: Who has not wondered why one person seems to want God while other folks don't seem to think they need God at all? However I see some things really wrong with the predestination idea. First of all, who said that man is so depraved that he cannot make a good choice? The bible does not teach that. The bible says that God made man upright, but that man has sought out many inventions. The false idea is being presented that it is somehow prideful to believe that God created us with the ability to know to chose good. God not only made us with the ability to know good from evil, but also with the ability to choose either good or evil. Folks usually choose evil because it is easier and more physically pleasurable. There is no great mystery there, the bible is full of people called good because they decided to follow good, and full of people called evil because they decided to do evil. It is strange that the predestination folks talk about the pride of an individual who believes that God gave them the ability to chose God, yet deny the incredible pride of believing that you got chosen over John Smith simply because you are better, not better by good deeds, just better.

 

[Utah]

Pray for you and ourselves to come to the same truth.

Why? Your prayer has no standing if everyone is predestined.

 

[Sully]

Why? Your prayer has no standing if everyone is predestined.

Boom goes the truth.

 

[Spokenpassage]

Why? Your prayer has no standing if everyone is predestined.

I don't understand.

 

[Utah]

I don't understand.

In post 57 you stated you pray everyone will come to the truth. The way I see it, if we are predestined, regardless of destination, prayers are moot. However, if we are not predestined, prayer can indeed play a vital role as to whether or not someone comes to the truth.