Why I now believe in Predistination/Election

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Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
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I believe that faith is a positive response to what grace has already provided in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection. God "predestined" us to be in Christ because of His great love for all of us and desires us to be with Him for all eternity. He loves us dearly and individually and unconditionally.

Whatever happens to us when we stand before Him will be a manifestation of His love. Even to those who reject Christ. His fervent love for them will burn them. This is the same principle as "doing good to those that despitefully use you and thus heap coals of fire on their heads".

He will take vengeance on the sin that is on them because of their unbelief in Christ.
Sounds like you hold Shank's and Barth's view on election. I believe it says what we are predestined "to be conformed to the image of His Son" which then leads us to, "those He predestined whom He also called" called to be justified, justified to be glorified, all by Him. It's all God's gift to the elect for salvation, He calls we respond and receive the gift of God. We are able, by faith to repent.

I Corinthians 4:7 "For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?" We receive the gift of God, in faith and repentance, but first He preforms a
circumcision of the heart, so that we can see the kingdom of God or He causes us to be born again or made alive.

When you say "us" do you mean in the same way the epistles use "us" or are you saying "us" as in the human race?
 
Jan 7, 2017
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Hi mike, it's nice to meet you. :)
It helps if you hit "reply with quote" for the post you want to ask about, then scroll to the bottom of the quote and type your response in, then hit post. So then we know which post you are giving your thoughts on.
Thanks, did I do it correctly?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Sounds like you hold Shank's and Barth's view on election. I believe it says what we are predestined "to be conformed to the image of His Son" which then leads us to, "those He predestined whom He also called" called to be justified, justified to be glorified, all by Him. It's all God's gift to the elect for salvation, He calls we respond and receive the gift of God. We are able, by faith to repent.

I Corinthians 4:7 "For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?" We receive the gift of God, in faith and repentance, but first He preforms a
circumcision of the heart, so that we can see the kingdom of God or He causes us to be born again or made alive.

When you say "us" do you mean in the same way the epistles use "us" or are you saying "us" as in the human race?
When I said "us" standing before God. I mean all man-kind. Those that have received Christ and belong to Him that have received the abundance of grace and the gift of His righteousness and to those that have rejected Him.

God doesn't randomly pick some for hell and some for heaven to be with Him. It's a violation of the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place and it is also a violation of His true character and nature.

Those who have received Christ are the elect. Jesus is the "The Elect" and we are in Him. Christ is the center of all things. He is the Alpha and the Omega. The Aleph and the Tav. Without Christ - we can do nothing.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
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When I said "us" standing before God. I mean all man-kind. Those that have received Christ and belong to Him that have received the abundance of grace and the gift of His righteousness and to those that have rejected Him.

God doesn't randomly pick some for hell and some for heaven to be with Him. It's a violation of the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place and it is also a violation of His true character and nature.

Those who have received Christ are the elect. Jesus is the "The Elect" and we are in Him. Christ is the center of all things. He is the Alpha and the Omega. The Aleph and the Tav. Without Christ - we can do nothing.
So you do hold a Shank and Barth view of election. I used to hold that view as well. A study on the weight of sin in my life changed that, because the Gospel is by design, even the Atonement. i've read both of Shank's books, I really haven't read any Barth, only excerpts quoted in other books.

Do you believe in universal atonement? Brother I'm not trying to put you on the spot, just interested in what you believe, because we seem to like the same posts on salvation. Here's what I believe about the words us, our(s)elf), we('re), you(r)self) in the epistles, I believe it's talking about the Church or the called/elect, because the way it is used. Like

Romans 5:8 "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

and what Jesus said John 10:11, 14-15 "
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.............14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep."

17:9, 20-21 "
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours......I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

His prayer is not for the world in salvation, but that they would beieve that the Father sent Him.
He lays down His life for those the Father has given Him or the sheep/elect/chosen.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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So you do hold a Shank and Barth view of election. I used to hold that view as well. A study on the weight of sin in my life changed that, because the Gospel is by design, even the Atonement. i've read both of Shank's books, I really haven't read any Barth, only excerpts quoted in other books.

Do you believe in universal atonement? Brother I'm not trying to put you on the spot, just interested in what you believe, because we seem to like the same posts on salvation. Here's what I believe about the words us, our(s)elf), we('re), you(r)self) in the epistles, I believe it's talking about the Church or the called/elect, because the way it is used. Like

Romans 5:8 "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

and what Jesus said John 10:11, 14-15 "
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.............14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep."

17:9, 20-21 "
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours......I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

His prayer is not for the world in salvation, but that they would beieve that the Father sent Him.
He lays down His life for those the Father has given Him or the sheep/elect/chosen.
I have never heard of Shank. I have heard the name of Barth or Barg?..something like that before. I have never read anything from either person - that I know of.

I do believe in a universal atonement however I do not believe all will be saved. I believe that Christ's death included all man-kind but not all man-kind will receive Him. People must believe and receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness that is only in Christ Himself.

I believe the two thieves are representative of the universal atonement. Two thieves were crucified with Christ. One received Him and the other rejected Him.

Again there is a vast difference between everyone included in Christ's death on the cross and them receiving Him. It is almost unbelievable how some could reject Him - but sadly scripture I believe is quite clear - some do.

I do believe that Jesus was praying for those that come to believe in Him that we would be one as He and the Father are one. Jesus is praying for the believers in Him to be one so that the world will believe in Him. John 17:21

Why would God want the world to believe in Jesus if He was going to reject them by not choosing them to be with Him?

It just violates the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place if people say that God picks some people for heaven and some for hell. It's a violation of His very character IMO.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
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I have never heard of Shank. I have heard the name of Barth or Barg?..something like that before. I have never read anything from either person - that I know of.

I do believe in a universal atonement however I do not believe all will be saved. I believe that Christ's death included all man-kind but not all man-kind will receive Him. People must believe and receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness that is only in Christ Himself.

I believe the two thieves are representative of the universal atonement. Two thieves were crucified with Christ. One received Him and the other rejected Him.

Again there is a vast difference between everyone included in Christ's death on the cross and them receiving Him. It is almost unbelievable how some could reject Him - but sadly scripture I believe is quite clear - some do.

I do believe that Jesus was praying for those that come to believe in Him that we would be one as He and the Father are one. Jesus is praying for the believers in Him to be one so that the world will believe in Him. John 17:21

Why would God want the world to believe in Jesus if He was going to reject them by not choosing them to be with Him?

It just violates the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place if people say that God picks some people for heaven and some for hell. It's a violation of His very character IMO.
I think we do believe the same thing we just say it different. The idea of election doesn't violate the "why" of the Gospel, it confirms it. What was the first NT promise about Jesus. Matthew 1:21 "She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

Zechariah 8:6-8 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: If it is marvelous in the sight of the remnant of this people in those days, should it also be marvelous in my sight, declares the Lord of hosts?7 Thus says the Lord of hosts: Behold, I will save my people from the east country and from the west country,8 and I will bring them to dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in faithfulness and in righteousness."

John 11:50-53 "
Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad."


John 6:35-40 "Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father, gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."


There are lots more, but we can understand that there was/is a plan for Christ's death. As you said He doesn't randomly chose some for hell and other for heaven. The latter is by His will and purpose, He doesn't chose anyone to hell, they've made that decision on their own.

John 3:18-20 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed."

We can chose evil because we are "anyone who practices sin is a slaves to sin" John 8:34. We are in bondage to it, yet we love it and hate Jesus because of it. It's interesting how He died for all people, yet His death is to save His (the) people. I look back and see that I was understanding Romans 8:28-30 the way it was written, but when I asked my pastor at the time. He said no it doesn't mean that, it mean God foreseen if you would respond in faith, to the Gospel. Since he was a pastor and had been a Christian long than me, I thought he has to be right, but it always brother me about foreseen faith being forced into the word "foreknowledge" and "foreknew". Then one day teaching through the book of Romans when I got to that part, I tried to say it was because of foreseen faith and I started stumbling on my words and had a sense that I was lying. That set me on a quest to study sin, our nature and how God viewed us and it wasn't pretty.

God Bless Brother nice fish, ain't those only in Hawaii?

 
Nov 22, 2015
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I think we do believe the same thing we just say it different. The idea of election doesn't violate the "why" of the Gospel, it confirms it. What was the first NT promise about Jesus. Matthew 1:21 "She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

Zechariah 8:6-8 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: If it is marvelous in the sight of the remnant of this people in those days, should it also be marvelous in my sight, declares the Lord of hosts?7 Thus says the Lord of hosts: Behold, I will save my people from the east country and from the west country,8 and I will bring them to dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in faithfulness and in righteousness."

John 11:50-53 "
Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad."


John 6:35-40 "Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father, gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."


There are lots more, but we can understand that there was/is a plan for Christ's death. As you said He doesn't randomly chose some for hell and other for heaven. The latter is by His will and purpose, He doesn't chose anyone to hell, they've made that decision on their own.

John 3:18-20 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed."

We can chose evil because we are "anyone who practices sin is a slaves to sin" John 8:34. We are in bondage to it, yet we love it and hate Jesus because of it. It's interesting how He died for all people, yet His death is to save His (the) people. I look back and see that I was understanding Romans 8:28-30 the way it was written, but when I asked my pastor at the time. He said no it doesn't mean that, it mean God foreseen if you would respond in faith, to the Gospel. Since he was a pastor and had been a Christian long than me, I thought he has to be right, but it always brother me about foreseen faith being forced into the word "foreknowledge" and "foreknew". Then one day teaching through the book of Romans when I got to that part, I tried to say it was because of foreseen faith and I started stumbling on my words and had a sense that I was lying. That set me on a quest to study sin, our nature and how God viewed us and it wasn't pretty.

God Bless Brother nice fish, ain't those only in Hawaii?


Bless you too brother! Those fish are called mahi-mahi in Hawaii. In Mexico they are called dorado. In the Caribbean they are called different names but they are really called dolphin fish - not the Flipper type dolphin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahi-mahi

I have caught them in all 3 places and they are good fighters and they are delicious!
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48

Bless you too brother! Those fish are called mahi-mahi in Hawaii. In Mexico they are called dorado. In the Caribbean they are called different names but they are really called dolphin fish - not the Flipper type dolphin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahi-mahi

I have caught them in all 3 places and they are good fighters and they are delicious!
Amen!!! Brother, I've eaten them before and they are good eating too :p.

God Bless Brother, I like learning different ways of saying the same thing, encase on day I need to think of a way to put the message forth in an understandable way.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63

Why would God want the world to believe in Jesus if He was going to reject them by not choosing them to be with Him?

It just violates the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place if people say that God picks some people for heaven and some for hell. It's a violation of His very character IMO.
God is nowhere said to choose men and women for Hell. But it clearly says that He will choose those who will be in Heaven (Eph 1.4 ff; 2 Tim 1.9; Tit 3.4-7; Heb 10.14).

Men go to Hell of their own volition because they are sinful. But it took the grace of God to get any to heaven.

This is quite clearly laid out in Rom 9. 'For He said to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion, so it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.'

This is followed by the famous words, 'why does He then find fault?' And Paul's equally famous answer, 'who are you who reply against God'.

In other words, we must leave our problems with regard to it in the hands of God, to be revealed in due time
 

Wheat

Junior Member
Dec 24, 2016
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We choose whom we serve.
 

Wheat

Junior Member
Dec 24, 2016
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Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;