The heart wicked or clean - What does Jesus say?

[followjesus]

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:9

The above is the state of those who do not follow Christ.

Those who have been saved are like this

Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Col 3:1


Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.
Col 3:15

Some feel their emotions or hearts are a closed book they dare not touch.

Three areas need addressing
1. Sinful behaviour is evil, needs to be dealt with, repented of
2. Love is King. Love heals and resolves issues
3. Behaviour reflects the state of our hearts.

Christ has come to rule in our hearts, but you need to let Him in.

We need to recognise our love and Gods love and set it free in our lives, to become
emotionally alive and free in Christs strength through the cross, by seeing His love
that drove Him to sacrifice Himself for us and forgive us of our sin and blindness.

It is pure delusion to think people have pure hearts because this is not the
experience of all. The opposite is true, people are often overcome with sinful
passions and encourage and dwell in fantasy to escape the grinding situation of
their current reality.

Unfortunately until people face the heart is where everything matters in the
believer they will never realise Gods power at work within them.

matthew 15:19-20 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: THESE ARE THE THINGS WHICH DEFILE A MAN a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."

a clean heart is what God promised long beforehand

Deuteronomy 30:6 "And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

God promised to circumcise our hearts so that we could Love Him with all our heart and soul.

and paul says that was done in Christ

colossians 2:11-12 "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in PUTTING OFF the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead"

the circumcision of our hearts of corruption happens Only through the gospel, the word of God. Renewing the mind not magically, but through Faith in Jesus Christ, faith in Him validates the authority of His word. Love one another. we love one another by doing the word and not simply hearing it. truly accepting Jesus changes a person through His living word. Changed thoughts lead to changed beliefs, leads to changed actions.

 

[PeterJens]

yea, you are so loving when you lecture us on what we believe, what we think, how we think, we don't know the Bible, etc.......is SO loving.

gb9 - considering you have nothing to offer, and all I share is straight biblical theology
and truth, you are just a clanging symbol, or a banging drum. I am loving you by declaring
the gospel and Christ love in our hearts. Obviously you are dead to this, as this very message
does not bring joy to you.

If you have the Holy Spirit it should my friend, and I do mean this most sincerely.

[video=youtube;fx3qvN_j63Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx3qvN_j63Q[/video]

 

[Billyd]

To put it mildly all the people who support your theology oppose actually right living.
They openly confess failure at the most basic level, and believe this shows how spiritual
they are, or to me, how deceived and lost they are.

How can being stuck in quick sand and slowly sinking deeper and knowing you really do
need to be saved, is actually being saved, walking on dry ground and seeing Christ bring
real victory into your life and experience on a daily basis.

If you cannot deliver a walk like Christ you have nothing, emptiness, zip.

Your followers do not understand their hearts, their emotions, their weaknesses and strengths
and abdicate all responsibility to God, which is exactly what the enemy wants of deluded people.

The gifts of the spirit include self control.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:22-24

This is all about taking the love Jesus is and taking ones life and knocking it into shape.
Love, joy peace all emotional expressions of life, real life, real freedom. A lost heart cannot
know these things, bound and depressed in sin and hard heartedness.

forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness - these are all acts of the will,
based on a focus and knowledge of what one is doing. And it all springs from having a pure
heart, which the theology you g7 claim you have but the fruit and words deny it, along with
all your followers who agree with you.

It is all a sad testimony of real failure at life, not over a few years, but a whole lifetime
culminating it a war on the body of Christ. This is what I call real delusion, similar to
a grand mal, were you alone stand between hell and the kingdom fighting off the hordes
of evil legalists who have deceived the church into believing they can earn salvation.

It is you who are being a serious problem, distracting and confusing simple issues of
getting right with God and walking in His ways from a clean pure heart because you have
really repented and sorted yourself out with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

And I seriously doubt that any of the false teachers have a clue the blindness they are openly
declaring or how their very positions declare they know very little about love and purity at all.

Peter, the sad thing here is that you are so close, yet light years away. The only way that the fruits of the spirit will manifest themselves in you is "by grace through faith", better known as salvation. It is only through the strength of Christ in you, that you can put them into practice. I challenge you to "let go", and "let God". Most here have put the "d" on the word go, and it has opened a whole new universe to them. I pray that you will too.

Mat 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Do you not know that the only way that you will have a pure heart is to let the Holy Spirit replace "self" in your heart?

You have engaged in this battle for well over a year now. Please take some time off and let the Holy Spirit do His work. I promise you that you will find a peace that transcends all understanding.

God Bless you.

 

[Grace777x70]

Peter, the sad thing here is that you are so close, yet light years away. The only way that the fruits of the spirit will manifest themselves in you is "by grace through faith", better known as salvation. It is only through the strength of Christ in you, that you can put them into practice. I challenge you to "let go", and "let God". Most here have put the "d" on the word go, and it has opened a whole new universe to them. I pray that you will too.

Mat 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Do you not know that the only way that you will have a pure heart is to let the Holy Spirit replace "self" in your heart?

You have engaged in this battle for well over a year now. Please take some time off and let the Holy Spirit do His work. I promise you that you will find a peace that transcends all understanding.

God Bless you.

Amen.....good counsel for all of us while we are in this earth. He will be faithful to all of us where ever we are at because He loves us dearly. He will never leave us nor forsake us.

 

[PeterJens]

Peter, the sad thing here is that you are so close, yet light years away. The only way that the fruits of the spirit will manifest themselves in you is "by grace through faith", better known as salvation. It is only through the strength of Christ in you, that you can put them into practice. I challenge you to "let go", and "let God". Most here have put the "d" on the word go, and it has opened a whole new universe to them. I pray that you will too.

Mat 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Do you not know that the only way that you will have a pure heart is to let the Holy Spirit replace "self" in your heart?

You have engaged in this battle for well over a year now. Please take some time off and let the Holy Spirit do His work. I promise you that you will find a peace that transcends all understanding.

God Bless you.

I would flip your words the other way. You are so close to knowing the Holy Spirit moving
in power through you, though somehow you do not believe God has empowered you to move.

You have created an altar to self and measure everything by this altar, while just creating it
has led to delusion and heresy.

And it is delusion to say I am in a battle with you or anyone. I am following the Lords work
in my heart. I came here to see His glory revealed and know the Kingdom come here.

I now see so much more clearly how people shut God out of their hearts, do not speak honestly
with their emotions and lie to themselves they know the cross and its terror and abject poverty.

Such basic failures is not spiritual growth or truth but spiritual bankcruptcy. And ofcourse you
do not see this because you do not know Christ as I do, or the issues I am addressing.
Do you really think this flabby compromising gospel which does not understand righteousness
is anything to do with Christ and the Holy Spirit? It is just self indulgence, and getting high in
worship.

God will spew out people such as this, as desteble in his sight. Such blasphemies spoken and
compromised with, taking Jesus words and trampling on them as if this is Gods wisdom.

The day will come when people will tremble at such arrogance and sin, and wish they never knew
the name of Jesus. Against them the Lord will reconn great judgement for they claimed knowledge
yet miss used and blasphemed His very good news to the people.

 

[PeterJens]

So many believers are very confused.

2nd or 3rd generation believers who grow up in the faith absorb so much and miss the
true state of their hearts. They believe they know christ by partaking in ceremonies,
praying and reading scripture, yet until Christ comes into their hearts they have nothing.

It seems many do not know this truth, and think this is about earning salvation verses
faith in God.

I would say this is like playing a computer game of driving a car and actually driving it.

People are christians second hand, but their hearts are far from God. Love is not there
basic reaction, it is their put on behaviour.

This is a quote
"I do not like others, but in Christ I have to love them."

In Christ it is - I love them because I know who and what they are, and how God
sees them, and through it all I want to see them grow in this love.

These are worlds apart, yet many who believe have this put on view of love
and faith. That is not knowing the heart of God.

 

[followjesus]

Amen.....good counsel for all of us while we are in this earth. He will be faithful to all of us where ever we are at because He loves us dearly. He will never leave us nor forsake us.

what about whether or not we forsake Him? surely it isnt a hostage situation where we have no choice. we do have a responsability to accept The Lords authority and ownership of Our Lives. That is the point where Faith meets reality, where sincerity is placed in the crucible. will we melt in the heat or be purified......

 

[followjesus]

So many believers are very confused.

2nd or 3rd generation believers who grow up in the faith absorb so much and miss the
true state of their hearts. They believe they know christ by partaking in ceremonies,
praying and reading scripture, yet until Christ comes into their hearts they have nothing.

It seems many do not know this truth, and think this is about earning salvation verses
faith in God.

I would say this is like playing a computer game of driving a car and actually driving it.

People are christians second hand, but their hearts are far from God. Love is not there
basic reaction, it is their put on behaviour.

This is a quote
"I do not like others, but in Christ I have to love them."

In Christ it is - I love them because I know who and what they are, and how God
sees them, and through it all I want to see them grow in this love.

These are worlds apart, yet many who believe have this put on view of love
and faith. That is not knowing the heart of God.

amen peter On one side of this you have the idea that grace means if you need do anything, then it just isnt Grace. On the other side you have ordinance keeping without Godly Love. The truth is the spirit of God changes Hearts and a changed Heart is a changed person. No longer is it a liar trying hard to tell the truth....But through Faith in Christ, the new becomes an honest person just being themselves. no longer a man burning with lust trying hard to not cheat on thier spouse, but the new is a faithful man, just being himself and keeping faith with His wife from the heart.

if we are burning with desire to steal, kill, fight, lie, commit adultery ect.....then new birth is not something we have experienced. Because walking in Gods ways shouldnt be a hindrance and burden, rather it should be a true expression of who we are in our hearts. righteousness Once was a burden we could not carry or attain to, but now having been gifted with the spirit of God, sin becomes the burden we cannot carry, and righteousness becomes just being ourselves through the Growing knowledge of Christ in us.

 

[Grace777x70]

what about whether or not we forsake Him? surely it isnt a hostage situation where we have no choice. we do have a responsability to accept The Lords authority and ownership of Our Lives. That is the point where Faith meets reality, where sincerity is placed in the crucible. will we melt in the heat or be purified......

He remains faithful no matter what because He cannot deny Himself. He will continue to persuade us so that we can get our minds renewed to the truth about Him. Knowing the truth sets us free. We can get pretty squirrely in our thinking from past experiences.

Take a person that has genuinely believed Christ in their heart and received Him - then gets raped by a clergy person - thus affecting their mental capacity to a point where they become bitter towards the things of the church. Thinks it is God doing it to him from false teaching that says "God did this to make you closer to Him and to bring glory to His name".

These people are still born-again but their minds have been deceived from their past experiences.

I believe that the heat from the refining fire will reveal the metal that is already there - like silver when it is being heated - the silver doesn't go away - it is revealed for what it truly is. Silver in the OT is a symbol for redemption.

The new spirit of man created in righteousness and holiness where Christ is joined as one spirit with him/her cannot be tainted with sin and in fact cannot sin. 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18

There is always the discipline of the Lord too as in child-training. Christians can easily still be in the baby stage even though they may be a Christian for 50 years, pastor a church for 30 years, can read Greek/Hebrew, pray 5 hors a day in tongues, go to church every time the door is open. ( All good things within themselves but just not indicative of being mature in the Lord. )

The truth is that Jesus is Lord and no one makes Him Lord. It's a renewing of the mind to see Him for who He and the Father really are and what they have done.

 

[PeterJens]

The problem I have with all this gnostic ideas is simple, why?
Jesus makes us new and shows us the way, empowers us so we can walk it.

It is a problem for those who are not so empowered, but this is a reflection
of their spiritual foundations not this is not way Christ works in His people.

My approach is not to condemn people or say you are not a believer, because
if you bring glory and praise to Christ, amen.

This all changes if you disown me, deny my walk and experience, you have made
me your enemy. And this is the continual fruit of these people, their continual
accusation people are carnal DIY believers, legalists, dooming people to hell etc.

Does this cause me to question why I believe as I do? Ofcourse. But mostly
it gives me insight to the basic failure to know what sin is and why people are
sent to the lake of fire. Anything but the truth and the words of Christ fits
these guys. And the abuse. "Anti-christ" beliefs, that is simply heresy.

Once people apostate this far, they are no longer in fellowship with the
Christian communion. It will take time, but the division will be complete.

 

[followjesus]

The problem I have with all this gnostic ideas is simple, why?
Jesus makes us new and shows us the way, empowers us so we can walk it.

It is a problem for those who are not so empowered, but this is a reflection
of their spiritual foundations not this is not way Christ works in His people.

My approach is not to condemn people or say you are not a believer, because
if you bring glory and praise to Christ, amen.

This all changes if you disown me, deny my walk and experience, you have made
me your enemy. And this is the continual fruit of these people, their continual
accusation people are carnal DIY believers, legalists, dooming people to hell etc.

Does this cause me to question why I believe as I do? Ofcourse. But mostly
it gives me insight to the basic failure to know what sin is and why people are
sent to the lake of fire. Anything but the truth and the words of Christ fits
these guys. And the abuse. "Anti-christ" beliefs, that is simply heresy.

Once people apostate this far, they are no longer in fellowship with the
Christian communion. It will take time, but the division will be complete.

amen.

"The problem I have with all this gnostic ideas is simple, why?
Jesus makes us new and shows us the way, empowers us so we can walk it." <<This right here is the truth.

some SEEM to take the atonement of Christ as freedom from " having to obey the oppressive rules of God" To simply view Gods Ways as somehow oppressive, or not 100 percent the right ways, only reveals lack of understanding and a kinship with cain. We are given freedom in Christ, not freedom to live as we will, without consequence but freedom from the oppression of sin that rules the old creation and leads it to death and hell.

So many dont accept this but when a person sins, they are quite simply serving the will of satan. They are by nature following deception. This is the reason we are taught the things paul teaches about rebirth, about dying and being raised again. Freedom from sin is predecated upon death, Once you die, sins authority over you is done, and being raised by faith in Christ, a new person is born having died already to sin, thus being freed from its clutches and given righteousness as a heart to follow freely. we put to death the nature of flesh by the knowledge we have died with Christ to those things and are new beings different from before.

we die to greed, and walk in the spirit of generousity to those with need. we die to lust and walk freely in the spirit of purity and faithfulness, we die to hate and violence and walk freely in the spirit of Love and peace. we die to revenge and live freely in the spirit of "turn the other cheek" above every gift given of God, the righteousness of Christ is important, the model of perfection to follow after, the word of Truth to guide our minds and hearts.

its terrible when obeying The Lord who is good and right about it all, becomes something contrary to "salvation" or becomes somehow a legalistic path....when the whole reason Jesus died and rose was to give us the freedom and ability TO walk in His ways as we learn them. The difference is The Word of Life coming from the One who died to save us, or the letters of stone which offer no new Heart to transform us inwardly.

sadly many are falling into this place in scripture

2 timothy 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Sound doctrine of course would be the gospel of the Kingdom....

 

[Ariel82]

This is a very odd statement and not proven in peoples experience.

People are very much contaminated and impure in their hearts unless they repent
and purify their hearts, their thoughts, their focus, and how they dwell on sin.

Now I wish everyone was pure as you claim, but one reason why there is so much
angst is because people find this is not true or automatic.

I believe God cleanses our hearts and makes us pure. It takes more time for our minds and thoughts to catch up.

Added to the spiritual strongholds in the mind that needs to be torn down.

Our emotions are reactions to our environment and our thoughts. Sometimes they are not logical because we lack wisdom and insight to know the cause of the emotional response we are having.

I believe emotions come from the heart like blood is pumped from the heart but emotions themselves are not our heart.

 

[Ariel82]

Lame.

Let us put your ideas into context.

Paul called the church in Corinth Holy yet they had serious problems with sexual
desire and getting inappropriately involved with other people.
They were far from being pure and they were certainly born again.

Paul talked about us, believers, sowing to the Spirit, purity life or to the lusts of
the flesh which lead to death and judgement.

Some where taking advantage of weak willed people in ministry, while others like
Timothy were living a pure life, holy and blameless.

So it is most definately not a simple open and shut case.
Paul also talks about purifying our hearts by what we dwell on and how we spend
our time.

So I find it interesting rather than facing the reality of scripture you wish to pump
this continuous comments that do not add up.

Yeah this post is a reaction from only reading half of g777 post.

Which by the way I agree with...

"

From there on - it's the renewing of our minds to walk out in our behavior what is already in us in Christ as we discover Him and see ourselves as one spirit with Him in union and communion.

As we behold the goodness/glory of the Lord as in a mirror - the Holy Spirit transforms us. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

We participate in this with Him for it is God who is at work in us - giving us the desire and the ability to do His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13"

Translation: God have you everything to live a godly life. You have a new purified heart. However, you still must renew your mind in order to change sinful behavior.


And this Peter is why folks don't like you much....false accussations based upon your misrepresentation of G777 statement which stems from your reading of only half his response...

A rather emotional reaction.

 

[Ariel82]

matthew 15:19-20 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: THESE ARE THE THINGS WHICH DEFILE A MAN a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."

a clean heart is what God promised long beforehand

Deuteronomy 30:6 "And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

God promised to circumcise our hearts so that we could Love Him with all our heart and soul.

and paul says that was done in Christ

colossians 2:11-12 "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in PUTTING OFF the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead"

the circumcision of our hearts of corruption happens Only through the gospel, the word of God. Renewing the mind not magically, but through Faith in Jesus Christ, faith in Him validates the authority of His word. Love one another. we love one another by doing the word and not simply hearing it. truly accepting Jesus changes a person through His living word. Changed thoughts lead to changed beliefs, leads to changed actions.

Hey wait did Peter and G777 both just like this post?

Hmmm, interesting....

 

[Ariel82]

what about whether or not we forsake Him? surely it isnt a hostage situation where we have no choice. we do have a responsability to accept The Lords authority and ownership of Our Lives. That is the point where Faith meets reality, where sincerity is placed in the crucible. will we melt in the heat or be purified......

The old "we" will melt, but what remains will be purified gold living for God's glory.

 

[Ariel82]

The problem I have with all this gnostic ideas is simple, why?
Jesus makes us new and shows us the way, empowers us so we can walk it.

It is a problem for those who are not so empowered, but this is a reflection
of their spiritual foundations not this is not way Christ works in His people.

My approach is not to condemn people or say you are not a believer, because
if you bring glory and praise to Christ, amen.

This all changes if you disown me, deny my walk and experience, you have made
me your enemy. And this is the continual fruit of these people, their continual
accusation people are carnal DIY believers, legalists, dooming people to hell etc.

Does this cause me to question why I believe as I do? Ofcourse. But mostly
it gives me insight to the basic failure to know what sin is and why people are
sent to the lake of fire. Anything but the truth and the words of Christ fits
these guys. And the abuse. "Anti-christ" beliefs, that is simply heresy.

Once people apostate this far, they are no longer in fellowship with the
Christian communion. It will take time, but the division will be complete.

So you are saying, you disown folks who don't like you from the family of God?

Not what God teaches Peter, but why waste my breath telling you that over and over again.

The basis for adoption into God's family is if the agree with Jesus and accept Him as their Lord and Savior.

Not if they falsely accuse you of being works salvationist.

Yeah it's annoying.

Almost as annoying as you attacking anyone who agrees with G777 and calling them really mean names.

 

[PeterJens]

So you are saying, you disown folks who don't like you from the family of God?

I cannot fake being one with people who disown my spiritual validity.
That would be hypocracy. To be honest it is only a few with a personal agenda
who are upset and want to upset me. So mainly I am ignoring them and responding
to their interesting attempts to discredit me. A little hard when all you have got is
invented ammunition.

It is interesting seeing people invent sentences out of nothing, but then that is always
a strategy of creating division. So I can just say, God bless, the Lord is King, Amen
when we stand with Him at the foot of the cross.

 

[gb9]

I cannot fake being one with people who disown my spiritual validity.
That would be hypocracy. To be honest it is only a few with a personal agenda
who are upset and want to upset me. So mainly I am ignoring them and responding
to their interesting attempts to discredit me. A little hard when all you have got is
invented ammunition.

It is interesting seeing people invent sentences out of nothing, but then that is always
a strategy of creating division. So I can just say, God bless, the Lord is King, Amen
when we stand with Him at the foot of the cross.

no one is trying to discredit you. some of us just attempt to point out errors in your theology. and when you are not honest about something you said when someone asks you about it. and when you slander others and mis-represent what others say.
and when you tell others what they think and believe, which you do not know.

if this behavior would stop, it would help others understand what you are saying.

 

[PeterJens]

no one is trying to discredit you. some of us just attempt to point out errors in your theology. and when you are not honest about something you said when someone asks you about it. and when you slander others and mis-represent what others say.
and when you tell others what they think and believe, which you do not know.

if this behavior would stop, it would help others understand what you are saying.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, I appreciate it, God bless you

How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, “Your God reigns!”
Isaiah 52:7

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Paul also makes it very clear in Romans 8:10 that the physical body, mind / intellect, and the heart (which is evil - Jeremiah 17:9) has been rendered helpless because of the original sin; consequently, the Believer trying to overcome by willpower presents a fruitless task. Only the Holy Spirit can mortify the deeds of the flesh and make us what we ought to be (Romans 8:13). This means we cannot do it ourselves. Once again, He performs all that He does within the confines of the Finished Work of Christ (Romans 8:2).

If a Christian will and their efforts to live for God is in anything except Christ and the Cross, i.e., Finished Work, The Blood of Jesus (Romans 8:2), Satan can override your will and force you to do things you don't want to do and trying not to do (Ephesians 6:12). Jesus said deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow me (Luke 9:23).

Remember our bodies are dead and useless to God. The heart is prone to wander away from God's love and eat from "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil." The reason why the body is dead is because of the effects of the fall has made us totally incapable of yielding spiritual obedience on a regular basis (Jeremiah 13:23). So there must be a source outside of myself that helps me to enter into sanctification which is the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13).